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I reject the premise that the Mass Relays are optional for galactic travel


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#326
Clayless

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DaeJi wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I don't understand why. Seeing as though they're aren't restricted to Reaper technology and the entire galaxy would be working towards finding a way to travel they could, in theory, surpass Relay technology dramatically and quite quickly.

If the Geth are alive then it's even better.


The species of the galaxy are restricted to Reaper technology, since Mass Effect is their technology. Sure, in theory they could create new technology, but why would they when they have technology that not only works but can be progressed?


But it doesn't work, the Relays are detroyed and like you pointed out FTL travel is sub-par. They could just find out how the Reapers managed to get around without the static discharge though, that would be easier.

And progressed? I always saw Reaper tech as a sort of handicap. It would only advance races to a certain point, and from then on it'd be a slow crawl towards full Reaper tech. No race ever really progressed their tech once they learned how to utilise the Relays, heck even the Protheans slowly crawled towards making a crappy Relay.

Without these restrictions they could create something far superior.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 10 avril 2012 - 06:11 .


#327
Warrior Craess

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All of this assumes a working infrastructure. From everything I've seen in game that's a bad assumption. In all cases of reaper invasion Industrial complexes are the first struck. heck then even Glass part of Diana Aller's home-world because they built binoculars. (oculars whatever).

So the re problem is building the stuff you need to build the stuff you need to rebuild the relays.
No new starships, no new mass effect fields. If we're really really lucky the infrastructure of the citadel ins't toast. And we can us it to rebuild. It's not going to be a short process no matter have quickly we learn the secrets of the reapers.

#328
mumwaldee369

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Warrior Craess wrote...

mumwaldee369 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Nothing, and in fact if the Relays remained destroyed after the Extended Cut DLC that's probably what BioWare will have the galaxy do next. Which, again, makes destroying them pointless.


You'll need to elaborate on the "pointlessness" of it.  I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  Having the galaxy recover from the aftermath of the reaper conflict, even if it means the reconstruction of the relays, doesn't strike me as being something that is pointless.  It's just part of the narrative, and if we want to drill down far enough we could argue that any piece of fiction is pointless.

We do know that Reapers are still active between harvestings, even
if at a reduced levels. Look at the Collectors, beings who ran
experiments for the Reapers. As well, the codex also mentions that the Reapers don't really need to use the Relays but use them anyway due to convenience.



Wouldn't the bolded indicate that the Relays aren't a requirement then?


Reapers don't eat AFAIK. 


Eating has nothing to do with it.  Reapers don't have to discharge static electric buildup. This is why wit our current tech the relays are needed. This is why, with our current tech Galactic travel in impossible. Well that and the lack of navigational knowledge of a way home via planet hoping. However unlike some others here I don't forsee any race persuing an alternate technology.
1) We know mass relays work. We know that there isn't anything better.  
2) Knowledge of the relays/Mass effect drives is several decades at least more andvanced than any other travel techology. It doesn't matter that we didn't earn that knowledge, all that matters is that we have it. 
3) all the money from businesses and govts is going to be thrown at rebuilding the relays. for the 2 reasons listed above. 

The destruction of the relays isn't pointless from a story stand point - if some closure is given on what happens to the galaxy afterwards. However game play of the ME verse is finished, there can be nothing ME related past this point. Can you really see dedicated ME fans being happy to explore the local cluster only?  And lets face it many of us won't play prequels or concurrent games because we are turned off by the ending, and will not be able to forget it. If they reintroduce the relays so that a series can be played after the reaper crisis, then yes destroying the relays is rather pointless, from a gameplay standing. 


Eating has everything to do with organics being able to cross the galaxy without the mass relays.  Logistics.  Everything they need will have to be onboard to cross vast expanses of space.  If they plan on stopping along the way to resupply they'll need more fuel to get out of orbit and back up to speed.  I've already seen someone mention hyper-sleep type travel, but I don't recall it ever being mentioned in ME.

#329
Clayless

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Warrior Craess wrote...

All of this assumes a working infrastructure. From everything I've seen in game that's a bad assumption. In all cases of reaper invasion Industrial complexes are the first struck. heck then even Glass part of Diana Aller's home-world because they built binoculars. (oculars whatever).

So the re problem is building the stuff you need to build the stuff you need to rebuild the relays.
No new starships, no new mass effect fields. If we're really really lucky the infrastructure of the citadel ins't toast. And we can us it to rebuild. It's not going to be a short process no matter have quickly we learn the secrets of the reapers.


Unless the Geth are alive, as they are restricted by nothing but raw materials. Not even time restricts them.

#330
s.nebulous

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I can understand the disappointment with losing the mass relays, but I’m actually surprised about the argument that it will end FTL travel and doom the galaxy. The mass relays did have to be built in the first place, or did they fall out of the big bang? People also give the reapers too much credit, they are not necessarily the pinnacle of advancement, and they destroy everyone before that theory can be tested.

Sovereign states they guide our evolution, we cannot know how we would of progressed without their influence. How can you claim you know, or that there are not alternative paths?

I can come up with a few possible solutions right now.

I can understand preferring mass relay travel, just not the argument that it is necessary

#331
Warrior Craess

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Our_Last_Scene wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I don't understand why. Seeing as though they're aren't restricted to Reaper technology and the entire galaxy would be working towards finding a way to travel they could, in theory, surpass Relay technology dramatically and quite quickly.

If the Geth are alive then it's even better.


The species of the galaxy are restricted to Reaper technology, since Mass Effect is their technology. Sure, in theory they could create new technology, but why would they when they have technology that not only works but can be progressed?


But it doesn't work, the Relays are detroyed and like you pointed out FTL travel is sub-par. They could just find out how the Reapers managed to get around without the static discharge though, that would be easier.

And progressed? I always saw Reaper tech as a sort of hanicap. It would only advance races to a certain point, and from the, on it'd be a slow crawl towards full Reaper tech. No race ever really progressed their tech once they learned how to utilise the Relays, heck even the Protheans slowly crawled towards making a crappy Relay.

Without these restrictions they could create something far superior.


mass effect technology works just fine. The relays have been destroyed, but our surviving starships work just fine. The Mass effect field of the guns used to fight with work just fine. So with the knowledge that Mass effect still works, and that it can still propell ships at FTL speeds. Everyone is going to be focusing on rebuilding, not on new exploration of a different drive technology.

#332
Blue Liara

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Agreed. This kind of logic continues to stoke my fears that Bioware is going to Botch things with their outrageous attempt to Clarify the endings.

You cannot clarify the BS logic of the star child. Or the multi-coloured BS endings.

They could easily just end up destroying even more of the Mass Effect lore in their attempt to "clarify" the endings and likely create even more plot holes.

Eiter that or the writing is going to have to completely abandon NARRATIVE COHERENCE and just include whatever it can to force the ending to make sense. For example:

All of a sudden the remains of the crucible allows the fleets stranded on earth to travel Mass Relay speeds back to their own planets. BS like that is likely to happen.

#333
DaeJi

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Our_Last_Scene wrote...

And progressed? I always saw Reaper tech as a sort of handicap. It would only advance races to a certain point, and from then on it'd be a slow crawl towards full Reaper tech. No race ever really progressed their tech once they learned how to utilise the Relays, heck even the Protheans slowly crawled towards making a crappy Relay.

Without these restrictions they could create something far superior.


The only restrictions were self imposed ones as well as the fact that the Reapers took out species before they could advance beyond a certain point. And again we continued to see technological progression throughout the series, such as the Normandy, Lazarus Project, ...thermal clips..., EVA, Thanix series weaponary, etc. The roadblock to progression were not the Reaper technology but the Reapers themselves. With them gone there is no reason that Mass Effect tech cannot be pushed further.

#334
Warrior Craess

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s.nebulous wrote...


I can understand the disappointment with losing the mass relays, but I’m actually surprised about the argument that it will end FTL travel and doom the galaxy. The mass relays did have to be built in the first place, or did they fall out of the big bang? People also give the reapers too much credit, they are not necessarily the pinnacle of advancement, and they destroy everyone before that theory can be tested.

Sovereign states they guide our evolution, we cannot know how we would of progressed without their influence. How can you claim you know, or that there are not alternative paths?

I can come up with a few possible solutions right now.

I can understand preferring mass relay travel, just not the argument that it is necessary


It has nothing to due with if there are alternate paths or not.  Our path is already firmly set. We've already been exposed to the benifits of the relays, and mass effect drives. We are going to want that back. No other tech comes even remotely close to the power and efficiency of the relays. ergo every available doller (credit whatever) is going to be spent in regaining the relays.  After we've rebuilt our respective local clusters and infrastructure. 

#335
Riion

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s.nebulous wrote...


I can understand the disappointment with losing the mass relays, but I’m actually surprised about the argument that it will end FTL travel and doom the galaxy. The mass relays did have to be built in the first place, or did they fall out of the big bang? People also give the reapers too much credit, they are not necessarily the pinnacle of advancement, and they destroy everyone before that theory can be tested.

Sovereign states they guide our evolution, we cannot know how we would of progressed without their influence. How can you claim you know, or that there are not alternative paths?

I can come up with a few possible solutions right now.

I can understand preferring mass relay travel, just not the argument that it is necessary


I don't claim there aren't alternative paths, I just don't believe it's possible for the species of the galaxy at this point to go back and pretend like they were never exposed to the Reaper technological path. I doubt they will decide to go back to the crossroads and pick a new path, rather, they would probably continue on the same path. 

I don't see a very strong argument for the destruction of the relays, either in game (Crucible firing should not have lead to destruction), or to its contribution towards the evolution of the story of the ME universe. 

#336
Warrior Craess

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Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

All of this assumes a working infrastructure. From everything I've seen in game that's a bad assumption. In all cases of reaper invasion Industrial complexes are the first struck. heck then even Glass part of Diana Aller's home-world because they built binoculars. (oculars whatever).

So the re problem is building the stuff you need to build the stuff you need to rebuild the relays.
No new starships, no new mass effect fields. If we're really really lucky the infrastructure of the citadel ins't toast. And we can us it to rebuild. It's not going to be a short process no matter have quickly we learn the secrets of the reapers.


Unless the Geth are alive, as they are restricted by nothing but raw materials. Not even time restricts them.


Granted, and like I mentioned earlier, they are about the only race that would look into alternate technology. And now that they are an individual (if they even survived your choice of ending) they may or may not persue it. They will be much less effective as indiduals though. 

#337
Clayless

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DaeJi wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

And progressed? I always saw Reaper tech as a sort of handicap. It would only advance races to a certain point, and from then on it'd be a slow crawl towards full Reaper tech. No race ever really progressed their tech once they learned how to utilise the Relays, heck even the Protheans slowly crawled towards making a crappy Relay.

Without these restrictions they could create something far superior.


The only restrictions were self imposed ones as well as the fact that the Reapers took out species before they could advance beyond a certain point. And again we continued to see technological progression throughout the series, such as the Normandy, Lazarus Project, ...thermal clips..., EVA, Thanix series weaponary, etc. The roadblock to progression were not the Reaper technology but the Reapers themselves. With them gone there is no reason that Mass Effect tech cannot be pushed further.


That's not advancement really, it's all based off of Reaper tech.

Plus you'd have to make Relays in every system you wish to travel in and that's not feasible. The galaxy would be looking for alternatives.

#338
ed87

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The best thing about Mass Relays is that you had no idea where some of them were going. Like the Omega-4 relay. Conventional travel is so boring

#339
DaeJi

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Warrior Craess wrote...


Granted, and like I mentioned earlier, they are about the only race that would look into alternate technology. And now that they are an individual (if they even survived your choice of ending) they may or may not persue it. They will be much less effective as indiduals though. 


Even the Geth are a result of Mass Effect technology and know of it's obvious advantages. They, more than anyone, should actually want to push for greater research into Mass Effect, given their encounters with the Reapers.

#340
Warrior Craess

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DaeJi wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

And progressed? I always saw Reaper tech as a sort of handicap. It would only advance races to a certain point, and from then on it'd be a slow crawl towards full Reaper tech. No race ever really progressed their tech once they learned how to utilise the Relays, heck even the Protheans slowly crawled towards making a crappy Relay.

Without these restrictions they could create something far superior.


The only restrictions were self imposed ones as well as the fact that the Reapers took out species before they could advance beyond a certain point. And again we continued to see technological progression throughout the series, such as the Normandy, Lazarus Project, ...thermal clips..., EVA, Thanix series weaponary, etc. The roadblock to progression were not the Reaper technology but the Reapers themselves. With them gone there is no reason that Mass Effect tech cannot be pushed further.


I'm going to disagree with Thermal clips being an advancement.  The only weapon improved by it was the sniper rifle. and even that improvement was fairly marginal.  I'd take my ME1 assault rifle with mods over any rifle they have, becuase I could fire it accurately and constantly with out ever having to stop and wait for it to cool down.I timed it once,  it took like 5 minutes of continuous fire to overheat... 5 minutes of trigger to the metal firing. I can't even do 1 minute of that with the current weapon systems. 

#341
DaeJi

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Our_Last_Scene wrote...

That's not advancement really, it's all based off of Reaper tech.


And high tech stealth planes are based of the same tech of the Wright Brothers, what's your point? Advancement is advancement.

#342
Warrior Craess

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DaeJi wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...


Granted, and like I mentioned earlier, they are about the only race that would look into alternate technology. And now that they are an individual (if they even survived your choice of ending) they may or may not persue it. They will be much less effective as indiduals though. 


Even the Geth are a result of Mass Effect technology and know of it's obvious advantages. They, more than anyone, should actually want to push for greater research into Mass Effect, given their encounters with the Reapers.

Possible maybe even probable. however They are also the ones least likely to be restricted to reaper technology due to funding and conveinence. 

#343
DaeJi

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Warrior Craess wrote...

I'm going to disagree with Thermal clips being an advancement.


It was a joke, hense the ellipsis.

#344
OhoniX

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We don't travel at 30LY/day. We travel an 12LY/day, yes this is fast, no it's not fast enough to sustain a galactic civ.


I didn't mean that, I meant that at 12ly/d it would only take 30 years to travel from one edge of the galaxy to another, only a handful of years to travel between most of the core Citadel worlds. It really wouldn't be much more of a hassle than managing the British Empire.

I've discussed this topic to death in other threads, but basically even in the 21st century we can map out planets from a long distance, thousands of lightyears away, and I imagine with ME level computers and technology they can do a much better job of it, so any one ship with dedicated astrogational instruments could probably, within minutes or at most days, tell you the planetary breakdown of every star within a thousand lightyears of its current position, and probably also tell you a rough chemical composition of their atmospheres, letting them know without even setting foot in those systems whether to expect available fuel and discharge options.

Considering that the Mass Relays are actually an impractical way of travelling because you need to go from one to another and not just to any point you choose - it does seem like that the usage of them are more than just 'convenient'.


They're only inconvenient if they don't go where you want to go. Think of them like airplanes vs. cars. If I want to get from New York to Boston, I can drive to the airport, take a plane to Boston, and then drive to my final destination. Alternately, I could drive the entire route, and depending on traffic the travel time might even be similar, with a lot less hassle. However, if I wanted to get from New York to LA, going by plane, even if both airports are a bit out of the way, would be much faster than driving the entire length.

sure, pure FTL that can go as fast as a relay would beat using relays, but so far that sort of travel isn't even a theoretical option, but that doesn't mean that if the airports are down, driving, while not ideal, would still be an option.

But the stories following it would be about the species of the galaxy rebuilding the Relays.


Not necessarily. You can tell the story of rebuilding the relays. You can tell the story of the strife and/or unity that came from not having the relays for a period of time, and the "buccaneering" time of astronavigation without them. And eventually, you could tell the story of the galaxy with the relays back in action and things returned largely to the state before they existed, but just as WWII greatly shaped the post-war economies of the nations involved, the lack of relays, however temporary, would greatly effect the histories of each race in the galaxy.

#345
Warrior Craess

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Our_Last_Scene wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

And progressed? I always saw Reaper tech as a sort of handicap. It would only advance races to a certain point, and from then on it'd be a slow crawl towards full Reaper tech. No race ever really progressed their tech once they learned how to utilise the Relays, heck even the Protheans slowly crawled towards making a crappy Relay.

Without these restrictions they could create something far superior.


The only restrictions were self imposed ones as well as the fact that the Reapers took out species before they could advance beyond a certain point. And again we continued to see technological progression throughout the series, such as the Normandy, Lazarus Project, ...thermal clips..., EVA, Thanix series weaponary, etc. The roadblock to progression were not the Reaper technology but the Reapers themselves. With them gone there is no reason that Mass Effect tech cannot be pushed further.


That's not advancement really, it's all based off of Reaper tech.

Plus you'd have to make Relays in every system you wish to travel in and that's not feasible. The galaxy would be looking for alternatives.


incorrect assumption in having to place a relay in every system.  Just the major hubs, then FTL is fast enough for local travel.  Why would I need to place a relay at Alpha Centauri it's only 8 hours away.   Your saying we need to put in a international airport in every town. so that we can all travel to a place. We don't do that, nor would we place a relay every where we want to travel.  

#346
mumwaldee369

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The Normandy seemed to go through fuel pretty rapidly just tooling around star systems.

#347
OhoniX

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The Normandy seemed to go through fuel pretty rapidly just tooling around star systems.


The Normandy didn't use any fuel moving around systems, it used fuel moving within sectors, between system. The "sector" designation was an arbitrary one that basically meant "useful planets within a full tank's travel of a known Relay," but essentially traveling from system to system within a sector was the travel of numerous lightyears. I do wonder if anyone can do some math on that one, have they ever allowed players to travel between two systems that are a factually measured distance apart? Like did they allow travel between Earth and one of our neighbors?

#348
Warrior Craess

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OhoniX wrote...


We don't travel at 30LY/day. We travel an 12LY/day, yes this is fast, no it's not fast enough to sustain a galactic civ.


I didn't mean that, I meant that at 12ly/d it would only take 30 years to travel from one edge of the galaxy to another, only a handful of years to travel between most of the core Citadel worlds. It really wouldn't be much more of a hassle than managing the British Empire.

I've discussed this topic to death in other threads, but basically even in the 21st century we can map out planets from a long distance, thousands of lightyears away, and I imagine with ME level computers and technology they can do a much better job of it, so any one ship with dedicated astrogational instruments could probably, within minutes or at most days, tell you the planetary breakdown of every star within a thousand lightyears of its current position, and probably also tell you a rough chemical composition of their atmospheres, letting them know without even setting foot in those systems whether to expect available fuel and discharge options.

Considering that the Mass Relays are actually an impractical way of travelling because you need to go from one to another and not just to any point you choose - it does seem like that the usage of them are more than just 'convenient'.


They're only inconvenient if they don't go where you want to go. Think of them like airplanes vs. cars. If I want to get from New York to Boston, I can drive to the airport, take a plane to Boston, and then drive to my final destination. Alternately, I could drive the entire route, and depending on traffic the travel time might even be similar, with a lot less hassle. However, if I wanted to get from New York to LA, going by plane, even if both airports are a bit out of the way, would be much faster than driving the entire length.

sure, pure FTL that can go as fast as a relay would beat using relays, but so far that sort of travel isn't even a theoretical option, but that doesn't mean that if the airports are down, driving, while not ideal, would still be an option.

But the stories following it would be about the species of the galaxy rebuilding the Relays.


Not necessarily. You can tell the story of rebuilding the relays. You can tell the story of the strife and/or unity that came from not having the relays for a period of time, and the "buccaneering" time of astronavigation without them. And eventually, you could tell the story of the galaxy with the relays back in action and things returned largely to the state before they existed, but just as WWII greatly shaped the post-war economies of the nations involved, the lack of relays, however temporary, would greatly effect the histories of each race in the galaxy.


Ohh my... ok first we can barely map out stuff. For the most part we can not map out that much.  We can pick a star and say (after more than a few months of study) this is whats here, we think, with reasonable assurance. 
How much more advanced their telescopes (i'm including all of the scopes we use here, radio xray etc etc) are, would be an interesting question.  Assuming that their navigational systems in Star trek like or better is really just speculation.  Seriously a few minutes to map out 1000LY worth of space? is that in a linear fashion  or are you saying a few minutes for a volume of space 1000LY radius in a sphere?  Think i'll have to disagree with out. At no point was I able to chart a system (not scan for resources but to see what planets were there) before I actually got there. I've give you maybe a 30-50 light years at a time, but not much more.  Which still makes getting home a problem. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 10 avril 2012 - 06:45 .


#349
s.nebulous

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Breaking news
While researching mass relay technology scientists discover they can use heavy mass effect fields to create stable wormholes connection any two points in the galaxy at will. The lead researcher claims this breakthrough is more flexible and economical then the reaper mass relay network we use to rely on. Some wonder why the reapers never exploited this possibility, did they never figure it out, or perhaps it did not fit in their plans of guiding organic advancement. The true knowledge and capabilities of those who created the reapers is unknown and we may never know the answer.

Stay tuned for our next piece on are Asari dancers corrupting our youth?

I'm just having fun and trying to make a point at the same time.

#350
Chk-2000

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OhoniX wrote...


We don't travel at 30LY/day. We travel an 12LY/day, yes this is fast, no it's not fast enough to sustain a galactic civ.


I didn't mean that, I meant that at 12ly/d it would only take 30 years to travel from one edge of the galaxy to another, only a handful of years to travel between most of the core Citadel worlds. It really wouldn't be much more of a hassle than managing the British Empire.

*snip*


Even if anyone could travel 12ly/day (which would require in the truest sense of the word astronomical amounts of energy just to propel the vessel, let alone the power needed for inertia dampeners, life support, ship operations, etc.) and so cross the whole galaxy in about 24 or 25 years (a lot longer in fact, as you cannot travel through the core) he/she would run into serious - and I mean SERIOUS - problems with time dilation (http://en.wikipedia....i/Time_dilation).

I cannot give you accurate numbers, because FTL travel is theoretically impossible, but even if they did travel at “only” 99,99% of light speed, the time lag would be huge. Here is an example calculation:

1d travel x 99,99% ls > 70.71d on earth
1y travel x 99,99 % ls > 70.71y on earth
24y travel x 99,99% ls > 1697.10y on earth

So if any ship arrives on the other side of the galaxy after traveling at 99,99% ls for about 24 years, it would mean, that for the people in the rest of the galaxy about 1700 years will have passed. Not even the asari live that long. Now, I don't know what happens if instead of 99,99% ls you travel at 4000% ls (12ly/day), but as the time delay grows exponentially as your speed goes up, the time dilation would probably be as astronomical as the energy you need to get those speed.

Modifié par Chk-2000, 10 avril 2012 - 06:47 .