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[Warrior Craess]

s.nebulous wrote...

Breaking news
While researching mass relay technology scientists discover they can use heavy mass effect fields to create stable wormholes connection any two points in the galaxy at will. The lead researcher claims this breakthrough is more flexible and economical then the reaper mass relay network we use to rely on. Some wonder why the reapers never exploited this possibility, did they never figure it out, or perhaps it did not fit in their plans of guiding organic advancement. The true knowledge and capabilities of those who created the reapers is unknown and we may never know the answer.

Stay tuned for our next piece on are Asari dancers corrupting our youth?

I'm just having fun and trying to make a point at the same time.

heh just what do you thin the mass relays were?  it's a fancy way of saying worm hole. 

[Orthodox Infidel]

I admit to not having read the thread, so I apologize in advance if someone has made the reply I'm about to already.

Leafs43 wrote...

Destroying the mass relays doesn't magically open another door.

No, nobody claimed that it is magic. It's simply persuing an alternative. Like inventing an automobile instead of a train.

The reapers are considered  close to perfection

Only by themselves.

and far more advanced than any current species and they still use the mass relay network for the main way of travel.  They use the citadel as a giant mass relay in ME1.  They use the alpha relay in ME2 arrival's dlc.  So it is canon that the reapers use the mass relay system.

Ok. This part is true. I still drive my car even though I also fly airplanes and ride on trains.

So by saying the mass relays are optional, you admit that the citadel races, which are considerably less advanced than the reapers, can somehow think up of a better idea for travel.

Not necessarily. Some people claim that galactic travel will still exist but just be really slow. However, I'll accept the premise that eventually, the Citadel races will invent some form of travel equivalent or superior to current Reaper methods.

 That idea is complete horse pockey and deserves to be rejected as a logical conclusion..

No it isn't. The Reapers are not Gods, and we know absolutely nothing about how they obtained their technology. The fact that they attained it themselves through lots of work, or the people who originally built them gave their technology to them. Either way, it's possible for somebody to figure that stuff out again, unless you think that Reapers came into existence fully formed right at the birth of the universe.

Modifié par Orthodox Infidel, 10 avril 2012 - 06:55 .

[Warrior Craess]

mumwaldee369 wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

mumwaldee369 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Nothing, and in fact if the Relays remained destroyed after the Extended Cut DLC that's probably what BioWare will have the galaxy do next. Which, again, makes destroying them pointless.

You'll need to elaborate on the "pointlessness" of it.  I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  Having the galaxy recover from the aftermath of the reaper conflict, even if it means the reconstruction of the relays, doesn't strike me as being something that is pointless.  It's just part of the narrative, and if we want to drill down far enough we could argue that any piece of fiction is pointless.

We do know that Reapers are still active between harvestings, even
if at a reduced levels. Look at the Collectors, beings who ran
experiments for the Reapers. As well, the codex also mentions that the Reapers don't really need to use the Relays but use them anyway due to convenience.

Wouldn't the bolded indicate that the Relays aren't a requirement then?

Reapers don't eat AFAIK. 

Eating has nothing to do with it.  Reapers don't have to discharge static electric buildup. This is why wit our current tech the relays are needed. This is why, with our current tech Galactic travel in impossible. Well that and the lack of navigational knowledge of a way home via planet hoping. However unlike some others here I don't forsee any race persuing an alternate technology.
1) We know mass relays work. We know that there isn't anything better.  
2) Knowledge of the relays/Mass effect drives is several decades at least more andvanced than any other travel techology. It doesn't matter that we didn't earn that knowledge, all that matters is that we have it. 
3) all the money from businesses and govts is going to be thrown at rebuilding the relays. for the 2 reasons listed above. 

The destruction of the relays isn't pointless from a story stand point - if some closure is given on what happens to the galaxy afterwards. However game play of the ME verse is finished, there can be nothing ME related past this point. Can you really see dedicated ME fans being happy to explore the local cluster only?  And lets face it many of us won't play prequels or concurrent games because we are turned off by the ending, and will not be able to forget it. If they reintroduce the relays so that a series can be played after the reaper crisis, then yes destroying the relays is rather pointless, from a gameplay standing. 

Eating has everything to do with organics being able to cross the galaxy without the mass relays.  Logistics.  Everything they need will have to be onboard to cross vast expanses of space.  If they plan on stopping along the way to resupply they'll need more fuel to get out of orbit and back up to speed.  I've already seen someone mention hyper-sleep type travel, but I don't recall it ever being mentioned in ME.

eating has nothing to do with it. 
FTL travel is currently limited by the amount of time it takes for a static charge to reach lethal limts.  All ships can carry more than enough food to exceed their Static buildup endurance.  And you can always have a frieghter travel along with you to store extra food.  

[OhoniX]

Ohh my... ok first we can barely map out stuff. For the most part we
can not map out that much.  We can pick a star and say (after more than
a few months of study) this is whats here, we think, with reasonable
assurance.

Yes, today. Today we can map out large planets, and we can even tell what sort fo atmopheres they have. Now, push that into the futue, with high end VIs to process the data, advanced telescopic systems, are you telling me that we went from zero to what we have today within my liftime, and yet given almost two hundred more years they won't be able to do significantly better?

Seriously a few minutes to map out 1000LY worth of space? is that in a
linear fashion  or are you saying a few minutes for a volume of space
1000LY radius in a sphere

Sure. You just use a high power orbital telescope with a fluctuating mirror that scans in a bunch of data on each nearby star within a second or so, and then shifts to the next. That dat is then fed to VIs that do the data processing (or even to Geth, potentially), and I bet they could do all the calculations pretty fast.

And that's even assuming that the entire galaxy hasn't already been mapped out over the centuries that the Citadel races have been active.

At no point was I able to chart a system (not scan for resources but to
see what planets were there) before I actually got there. I've give you
maybe a 30-50 light years at a time, but not much more.  Which still
makes getting home a problem.

Check out this thread, I don't want to get into this all over again.

Even if anyone could travel 12ly/day (which would require in the
truest sense of the word astronomical amounts of energy just to propel
the vessel, let alone the power needed for inertia dampeners, life
support, ship operations, etc.)

Don't argue it as a hypothetical, this is a "fact" within the ME universe. When you're bopping form system to system in the Normandy, you're traveling at 12yr/d, and using what fuel you use in doing so.

There is also no time dialation, because by using the mass effect you're basically shrugging off relativity, otherwise you wouldn't be able to reach FTL speeds in the first place (it's impossible). Basically, while traveling in a mass effect field, the you that is internal to the system is only moving through time at the same rate as if the ship were traveling at whatever it's base cruising speed is, probably not much faster than several times a modern space shuttle. I suppose there actually might be some time dialation, but nowhere close to what would occur if you actually accelerated to near-light speeds under normal condition. You might lose only a few days over the course of a galactic trip, rather than centuries.

[OMTING52601]

s.nebulous wrote...

Breaking news
While researching mass relay technology scientists discover they can use heavy mass effect fields to create stable wormholes connection any two points in the galaxy at will. The lead researcher claims this breakthrough is more flexible and economical then the reaper mass relay network we use to rely on. Some wonder why the reapers never exploited this possibility, did they never figure it out, or perhaps it did not fit in their plans of guiding organic advancement. The true knowledge and capabilities of those who created the reapers is unknown and we may never know the answer.

Stay tuned for our next piece on are Asari dancers corrupting our youth?

I'm just having fun and trying to make a point at the same time.

I absolutely expect the wormhole idea to be the explanation as to how the galaxy gets back to 'normal', but I expect that it will be written to happen at least a couple of centuries after the end stuff - even though it makes the Stargazer stuff at the end, with it's file label of 10K plus years later, seem really out of place. Or convenient as a set up for future, ME-verse wise, content? Dunno, don't care, LOL

As to relativistic impact(traveling at light speed the object in motion ages in light travel(i.e. 1 lightday=1 day aged) while the surrounding space ages in normal time - the codices in ME state that both the Relays and FTL travel has somehow been created so that relativistic impact is negated. In real scientific life, that's absolutely impossible and ridiculous, but in the ME-verse it's 'fact' so there's no need to worry about relativity since it doesn't apply. FWIW.

[mumwaldee369]

Warrior Craess wrote...


eating has nothing to do with it. 
FTL travel is currently limited by the amount of time it takes for a static charge to reach lethal limts.  All ships can carry more than enough food to exceed their Static buildup endurance.  And you can always have a frieghter travel along with you to store extra food.  

35 years worth of food?  Medical supplies?  Clothing?  Ok, I guess some folks can accept space magic and some can't.

[aliengmr1]

Honestly I don't see why we can't hijack the relays. After all the Reapers did kill...what? Trillions?

Figure they owe us.

This whole thing with the relays, like Shep "having" to die and the galactic-spacemagic-dna gizmo, was never properly "sold" to me. Just my opinion though.

[PsyrenY]

Warrior Craess wrote...

heh just what do you thin the mass relays were?  it's a fancy way of saying worm hole. 

Suppose they find a way to make those corridors without a fixed lattice of Reaper-placed slingshots? What if every ship could potentially be its own mass relay?

The problem with relying on the Reapers' network is that nobody ever thought of asking questions like these. Now they can.

[s.nebulous]

OMTING52601 wrote...

s.nebulous wrote...

Breaking news
While researching mass relay technology scientists discover they can use heavy mass effect fields to create stable wormholes connection any two points in the galaxy at will. The lead researcher claims this breakthrough is more flexible and economical then the reaper mass relay network we use to rely on. Some wonder why the reapers never exploited this possibility, did they never figure it out, or perhaps it did not fit in their plans of guiding organic advancement. The true knowledge and capabilities of those who created the reapers is unknown and we may never know the answer.

Stay tuned for our next piece on are Asari dancers corrupting our youth?

I'm just having fun and trying to make a point at the same time.

I absolutely expect the wormhole idea to be the explanation as to how the galaxy gets back to 'normal', but I expect that it will be written to happen at least a couple of centuries after the end stuff - even though it makes the Stargazer stuff at the end, with it's file label of 10K plus years later, seem really out of place. Or convenient as a set up for future, ME-verse wise, content? Dunno, don't care, LOL

As to relativistic impact(traveling at light speed the object in motion ages in light travel(i.e. 1 lightday=1 day aged) while the surrounding space ages in normal time - the codices in ME state that both the Relays and FTL travel has somehow been created so that relativistic impact is negated. In real scientific life, that's absolutely impossible and ridiculous, but in the ME-verse it's 'fact' so there's no need to worry about relativity since it doesn't apply. FWIW.

I was actually only bringing attention to the Asari story, but you do bring up a good point. 


Also the stargazer also has multiple explanations/interpretations that can fit into any possible lore

[OhoniX]

35 years worth of food? Medical supplies? Clothing? Ok, I guess some folks can accept space magic and some can't.

You would need to bring mobile manufacturing, like the Quarian liveships. You can make as much food as you need in space, all you need is some room and some energy.

Modifié par OhoniX, 10 avril 2012 - 07:36 .

[charon45]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

heh just what do you thin the mass relays were?  it's a fancy way of saying worm hole. 

Suppose they find a way to make those corridors without a fixed lattice of Reaper-placed slingshots? What if every ship could potentially be its own mass relay?

The problem with relying on the Reapers' network is that nobody ever thought of asking questions like these. Now they can.

As someone stated earlier in the thread, individual ships are limited by the amount of element zero they can fit in the drive core.  A ship can't carry enough to make a relay like jump on its own.  This is Reapers were still way slower without using relays. 

Also, FTL drives are Reaper tech, so the galaxy would still be depenent on them for travel. 

[s.nebulous]

charon45 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

heh just what do you thin the mass relays were?  it's a fancy way of saying worm hole. 

Suppose they find a way to make those corridors without a fixed lattice of Reaper-placed slingshots? What if every ship could potentially be its own mass relay?

The problem with relying on the Reapers' network is that nobody ever thought of asking questions like these. Now they can.

As someone stated earlier in the thread, individual ships are limited by the amount of element zero they can fit in the drive core.  A ship can't carry enough to make a relay like jump on its own.  This is Reapers were still way slower without using relays. 

Also, FTL drives are Reaper tech, so the galaxy would still be depenent on them for travel. 

Maybe FTL is keeper tech.
Plus advances in fictional technology may allow his hypothetical means of travel.

[mumwaldee369]

OhoniX wrote...

35 years worth of food? Medical supplies? Clothing? Ok, I guess some folks can accept space magic and some can't.

You would need to bring mobile manufacturing, like the Quarian liveships. You can make as much food as you need in space, all you need is some room and some energy.

Ok, then this would require them to drop out of FTL to make transfers between ships.  That would burn more fuel.  

*and the old Quarian fleet would need parts.  So you manufacture parts...with what raw materials?

Modifié par mumwaldee369, 10 avril 2012 - 07:51 .

[ZajoE38]

Reapers has FTL that allows to travel many times faster. From point where they were in Arrival DLC, it'd take them at least thousands of years to reach the galaxy, maybe even millions. By using classic FTL. Yet it took them 6 months. Yes.. so advanced. Organics can harness this technology. And why did relay blow up? Because Bioware wanted. You can't argue with that.

[charon45]

s.nebulous wrote...


Maybe FTL is keeper tech.
Plus advances in fictional technology may allow his hypothetical means of travel.

FTL drives are definitely Reaper tech.  In the codex, it says that FTL drives have a safety mechanism that prevents ships from being used as FTL suicide missles to take down Reapers and there is no way to bypass it. 

It is possible that Bioware will come up with a way around the limitations of the rules they set up for the ME universe, but you have to admit that the ending is very sloppy if fans have to resort to "the writers could come up with anything they want to fix the problems the ending created" to make sense of it. 

[OhoniX]

Ok, then this would require them to drop out of FTL to make transfers between ships. That would burn more fuel.

Well, they'd need to stop every day or two anyways for refueling and static discharging, so they could make the food runs then, while the mobile mining stations draw the necessary gasses off of gas giants.

It would be a whole production, but entirely doable using ME technology.

*and the old Quarian fleet would need parts. So you manufacture parts...with what raw materials?

Sol is littered with enoguh parts to build twice as many completed ships as they actually have, and they can take plenty of spares with them.

It is possible that Bioware will come up with a way around the limitations of the rules they set up for the ME universe, but you have to admit that the ending is very sloppy if fans have to resort to "the writers could come up with anything they want to fix the problems the ending created" to make sense of it.

There's nothing wrong with the allies using Reaper-based tech, we just don't want the actual Reapers, and they're gone.

[Kajan451]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Societies throughout history have recovered after being ravaged through war.

Name one please. Humans have recovered after being ravaged, but their societies are all gone after being ravaged by war. Being ravaged by war usually comes with a shattering of structures and turning the tides. 

I mean right on top of my mind, i would name germany. Their country got ravaged by the war they had started, bombed into oblivon afterwards, conquered, divided and returned into the hands of the germans.

Yet, even though they are, argueably, standing strong and tall again, their old society was gone. If you want to come from the point of view that german society had wanted that war, then you have to admit after it the new society outlawed the old ways. If you want to come from the point of view that it was a series of unfortunate incidents which ultimately lead into a situation where the old society was trapped by a few people in power, you still would have to agree that the old society ceased to exist during the time of war and oppression by the ****s, to be replaced with a new society.

Another "society" i could imagine would be the American Civil war, and here i am actually already questioning if ravaged by war is a suitable expression (i'd probably go with plagued or badly beaten instead of ravaged), you also have the old society fighting the changes the new one wanted to bring about. From slave holders to freedom fighters, with lofty ideals of equal rights and yada yada and all that. Still there was a major shift. The Humans endured but their old ways were gone afterwards. Some fought for it, some fought against it, but it was a brand new day afterwards.

Romans.. had a couple of society shifts, all brought by rather bad wars. Actually every single war i can come up with, be it Napeleon, Spartan, Roman, Egypt... every single big war i can imagine which had devasting effects on their homesoil lead to a change in society, with the old structures being gone.

War has a strange tendency to kill those in power and creating voids for new structures to raise. So i am actually curious which one you are thinking of.

Which society did actually not cease to exist and got replaced with something the survivors thought to be "superior"? Either because the survivors fought to create some ideal or because the survivors want to do everything in their power to prevent their homesoil being ravaged by war... there is never going to be the old society that existed before such a horrible incident.

People prevail. Societies perish and get replaced by something deemed superior.

[s.nebulous]

Kajan

Yes the old power structure will be gone, I don't see this as a problem. And i'm not sure you do either?

[Adanu]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Adanu wrote...

You can have mass relay-less FTL travel in a very simple manner.

Think about it. We are improving Mass Effect FTL drives all the time, with the Normandy being a prototype for a better design. Absolutely nothing says we can't improve the tech until rebuilding the network isn't needed anymore.

Except that the reapers reach a 30LY per day limit, and they don't need to stop and discharge static build up.  So great a trip that takes us 25 years will take them 10.  Given 10 years to prepare with the tech avail to ME civilizations and the reaper invasion fleet is freaking toast. 

Sorry but improvements to ME drive cores are never going to equal a mass relay.  Or come anywhere near the speeds needed to make intragalactic travel feasible. 

Nothing saying we can't improve over the Reapers designs either.

Again how do you improve over instanteous?

I'm referring to Mass effect FTL drives. Conventional ones. The relays are gone, that's a hell of an incentive to build better conventional drives.

[mumwaldee369]

OhoniX wrote...

Ok, then this would require them to drop out of FTL to make transfers between ships. That would burn more fuel.

Well, they'd need to stop every day or two anyways for refueling and static discharging, so they could make the food runs then, while the mobile mining stations draw the necessary gasses off of gas giants.

It would be a whole production, but entirely doable using ME technology.

*and the old Quarian fleet would need parts. So you manufacture parts...with what raw materials?

Sol is littered with enoguh parts to build twice as many completed ships as they actually have, and they can take plenty of spares with them.

It is possible that Bioware will come up with a way around the limitations of the rules they set up for the ME universe, but you have to admit that the ending is very sloppy if fans have to resort to "the writers could come up with anything they want to fix the problems the ending created" to make sense of it.

There's nothing wrong with the allies using Reaper-based tech, we just don't want the actual Reapers, and they're gone.

There are vast expanses of nothing in space.  Not even dust.  So they're set til they reach the edge of our solar system.  Then they're going to be missing some raw materials for several to several thousand light years.

[An English Gamer]

Actually humanity eventually invents a shaw-fujikawa translight engine that allows them to use slipspace but eventually comes across a group of hostile religious aliens and... wait wrong game.

I imagine they would try to do what the Protheans back on Ilos did and create smaller relays to begin to replace the old ones. I imagine their is an alternative, it's just no civilisation has discovered it.

[SilentK]

s.nebulous wrote...

Breaking news
While researching mass relay technology scientists discover they can use heavy mass effect fields to create stable wormholes connection any two points in the galaxy at will. The lead researcher claims this breakthrough is more flexible and economical then the reaper mass relay network we use to rely on. Some wonder why the reapers never exploited this possibility, did they never figure it out, or perhaps it did not fit in their plans of guiding organic advancement. The true knowledge and capabilities of those who created the reapers is unknown and we may never know the answer.

Stay tuned for our next piece on are Asari dancers corrupting our youth?

I'm just having fun and trying to make a point at the same time.

lol   =)   those asari dancers

I agree with you, I do believe that the inhaitants of the galaxy will pick themselves up and will move forward. It won't be easy, but they can do it. FTL is not as fast as Mass Relays, but they can trade and travel. Who knows what will come from research.

Hmm... on my first FemShep I do believe Hackett was alive by the end. If nothing else, I believe in Hackett to push humanity towards making a good recovery. That man is incredible. Hope he survived, my memory is a little hazy on the last bit.

[s.nebulous]

charon45 wrote...

FTL drives are definitely Reaper tech.  In the codex, it says that FTL drives have a safety mechanism that prevents ships from being used as FTL suicide missles to take down Reapers and there is no way to bypass it. 

It is possible that Bioware will come up with a way around the limitations of the rules they set up for the ME universe, but you have to admit that the ending is very sloppy if fans have to resort to "the writers could come up with anything they want to fix the problems the ending created" to make sense of it. 

I don't think reapers create anything, they just reap. And by create I don’t mean the physical construction of the mass relays, but the theory and design of them.

 The reapers however were created and with FTL, along with a mandate to guide  technology, thus consequences like safety from FTL suicide missiles, among other things.

Most of the info we have about the reapers is from them, entities with a god complex.  Who knows when or where the first FTL flight took place and by whom.

This isn’t about ending plot holes, or bad writing. This is more like people upset that Shepard didn’t have a happy ending; there is nothing in the lore that contradicts technology or advancement not already covered in the story. It is definitely asking for too much to have everything explained down to all the possible physical laws of the ME universe.

And for the record I kinda did want a happy ending (sniff)

Modifié par s.nebulous, 10 avril 2012 - 08:48 .

[Flextt]

wrong thread!

Modifié par Flextt, 10 avril 2012 - 08:59 .

[OhoniX]

There are vast expanses of nothing in space. Not even dust. So they're set til they reach the edge of our solar system. Then they're going to be missing some raw materials for several to several thousand light years.

Lol, ships in ME can travel 12 lightyears per day, we've been discussing that a lot around here. There are over fifty stars within two-day's travel of Sol. If you're capable of those speeds, space is actually rather small. It's much more dense with raw materials than, say, the pacific ocean would be to a sail vessel. If Magellan could do it, so could people in ME.