440 réponses à ce sujet

[mumwaldee369]

OhoniX wrote...

There are vast expanses of nothing in space. Not even dust. So they're set til they reach the edge of our solar system. Then they're going to be missing some raw materials for several to several thousand light years.

Lol, ships in ME can travel 12 lightyears per day, we've been discussing that a lot around here. There are over fifty stars within two-day's travel of Sol. If you're capable of those speeds, space is actually rather small. It's much more dense with raw materials than, say, the pacific ocean would be to a sail vessel. If Magellan could do it, so could people in ME.

I've never caught a space fish. 

And iirc the Quarians are on the opposite end of the galaxy.   There's gonna be some gaps in planetary systems.

[OhoniX]

I've never caught a space fish. smilie

And iirc the Quarians are on the opposite end of the galaxy. There's gonna be some gaps in planetary systems.

Fishing could never support a crew on the open ocean either, you needed to bring your food, and more importantly your water with you, and it would be weeks or even months between lands. With ME technology, they can blend/recycle plenty of water, vat-harvest plant and animal matter that, while perhaps not gourmet, would at least be biologically sustaining, and they'd rarely be more than a day or two's hop away from at least one system that includes rocket fuels.

And the Quarians aren't at the opposite end, Omega and Illium are further. Earth is like slightly in from the edge on the southern end of the map, Rannoch is against the edge of the eastern side. It'd be the furthest out of the known homeworlds, but only by a few more years, and they're best suited to the task. And there aren't that many gaps within the milky way itself, certainly not unavoidable ones.

[Kilshrek]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

To be fair, though, the Reapers are no longer a part of the equation.  That they have tools left behind that we find convenient I think makes their existence inconsequential.  Even if it makes us ignore other alternatives to transportation technology.

This.

And then, remember that the Protheans were working on their own Relay technology. Had they the time and resources, they would have been able to work it out for themselves, although the implications of that would be another matter altogether.

The thing is with the Reapers gone, there is no more developing along the lines they desire, so it makes things easier for the Reapers to destroy the advanced races. Things will progress beyond the scope of expectation of the Reapers and Catalyst, for good or ill. And then, again, that is an issue entirely for the races of the galaxy to own. If they screw up, there's no one left to blame.

Plus, remember those crazy salarians? Always poking into the workings of things and all that. I'd just bet one of them would start turning their attention to the relays properly, and in some collaborative effort, the galaxy would probably be able to work out their own relays. Just a shame it won't be Mordin.

[NM_Che56]

I'm almost at a loss for words...but today isn't your lucky day.

It's funny how people turn codex into a dogma!


The codex only communicates what is true now; what is known. It does not project what can be true in the future (e.g. codex said the Rachni are extinct). Right now, in the real world, a lot of things haven't come to fruition or are not possible (...like FTL). So to say that it is impossible, IN A FICTION BASED UNIVERSE NO DOUBT, that the Mass Relays are the ONLY thing that could make intragalactic travel possible is just absurd. It basically says that all science, real or fiction, is indelible which it is NOT.

Arm chair science on how travel w/out relays could be possible:

1) The Galaxy never had access to so much Reaper tech before. Reapers have flooded the galaxy. If you destroyed them, then look at how much you can salvage!!! Mankind unlocked the secrets of the relays by just studying ruins on Mars! You have now hit the JACKPOT with Reaper tech! You have all these brillant minds in the same system! All these engineers! Geth! Rachni! Quarians! Salarians! If Prothean ruins accelerated spacetravel for mankind by 200 years, just imagine what TONS of Reaper tech could do!

2) What do you think could happen if a relay implodes? Couldn't it leave some sort of traversable wormhole or something similar? Using current FTL technology (which the Reaper tech could improve), isn't it possible that they could traverse wormholes?

[thesalla]

It's funny how people turn codex into a dogma!

Finally! I love how players refer to a codex which still states the Citadel was supposedly built by the Protheans, without any reference to the Reapers.

Yet, forging Mass Relays is hard. The Prothean scientists on Ilos only managed to a build a one-way conduit to an existing and superior relay (the Citadel). How will the quarians of Rannoch or the remaining turians of Palaven for example build the "pair" of the new Sol relay with such limited resources and time?

[PsyrenY]

charon45 wrote...

Also, FTL drives are Reaper tech, so the galaxy would still be depenent on them for travel. 

I personally took Legion's statement to mean that we shouldn't rely on the Relay Network. Not the very basic technology of mass effect. Even Relays themselves aren't bad, if we structure them differently (don't have them all over the damn galaxy creating a million avenues of instantaneous attack for any given system.)

At some point, refusing to rely on something just because someone else used it will leave you with nothing. "Reapers use computers?? F*** computers!" "Reapers burn fuel to create energy? F*** fuel and energy!" etc.

[NM_Che56]

thesalla wrote...

It's funny how people turn codex into a dogma!

Finally! I love how players refer to a codex which still states the Citadel was supposedly built by the Protheans, without any reference to the Reapers.

Yet, forging Mass Relays is hard. The Prothean scientists on Ilos only managed to a build a one-way conduit to an existing and superior relay (the Citadel). How will the quarians of Rannoch or the remaining turians of Palaven for example build the "pair" of the new Sol relay with such limited resources and time?

The Great Sanhedrin of the Mass Effect lore. 

[poundoffleshaa]

As far as anyone knows (in Universe) Mass Effect technology is the only way to achieve FTL there may be other methods but they would have to be researched from scratch and they likely won't be given the availability of Mass Effect Technology. For people arguing that because the Reapers made the relays they are bad should remember that FTL and Mass Effect technology was inspired by the relays, that all the Mass Effect technology the Galaxy made its own originated from the Reapers. So a rejection of reaper tec is a rejection of FTL, biotic, modern weapons etc as well as the relays, too truly be free of reaper influence would require people to reject millenniums worth of technological advancement.

Mass Relays seem to be the end point of mass effect tecnology so unless people reject the tecnology itself they are what the galaxy will aim for.

Modifié par poundoffleshaa, 10 avril 2012 - 02:42 .

[Dean_the_Young]

charon45 wrote...

s.nebulous wrote...


Maybe FTL is keeper tech.
Plus advances in fictional technology may allow his hypothetical means of travel.

FTL drives are definitely Reaper tech.  In the codex, it says that FTL drives have a safety mechanism that prevents ships from being used as FTL suicide missles to take down Reapers and there is no way to bypass it. 

It is possible. Just not feasible. Nor are the barriers confirmed to be Reaper in origin.

[Comguard2]

Just creates more plotholes...

While is shutting down the relay-network during a reaper-invasion such a big deal anyway?

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

MothrascoolerthenGodzilla wrote...

At the rate the Normandy burns fuel using FTL, I don't see how any ship or fleet could have enough fuel to make an FTL trip across the galaxy.

THIS!  How does everyone miss this fact?  A brief jaunt around a small cluster of stars burns the Normandy's entire fuel reserve.  Going from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another would take 100 times that much fuel.  Where are they going to get that while on the go?  There's not enough room in the ship to even hold it.

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Reapers has FTL that allows to travel many times faster. From point where they were in Arrival DLC, it'd take them at least thousands of years to reach the galaxy, maybe even millions. By using classic FTL. Yet it took them 6 months. Yes.. so advanced. Organics can harness this technology. And why did relay blow up? Because Bioware wanted. You can't argue with that.

So the combined fleets of the galaxy stuck at an Earth whos infrustructure has been obliterated are going to "harness" this reaper tech how?  Exactly how are they getting home?  Shipyards that magically weren't destroyed by the Reapers?  You're telling me that it's some kind of minor retrofit to make these ships fly 2.5 times fasters then they presently do?  Which is by the way, the speed of the Reapers FTL drives. Not the nonsense numbers I've seen floating around on the boards.

The codex also tells us that some the distances the relays can traverse instantly are "Centuries" apart using conventional FTL drives.  Compare Ranoch's location to Earths and you see the problem with the Quarians getting home.  

Any solution Bioware offers to these problems will be a hand wave that is not consistent with existing lore.  I have no doubt that 200 years in the future, the races of the galaxy will have no problem getting from point A to point B.  But the immediate future after the battle for Earth is a nightmare, and Bioware has painted themselves into quite a corner.

[Omega Torsk]

See, okay... originally, I was outraged by the destruction of the Mass Relays. Too much info was just NOT given to us and we had to speculate using what we already knew.

After those paraphrased fan interviews held at PAX that people have been posting, I can somewhat understand where Bioware was trying to go with it. An end of the cycle also means the end of dependance on the Reaper's methods of conquest (such as the Citadel and Mass Relays). Galactic society isn't technically doomed, but now they'll need to forge their own path. They'll need to enter somewhat of a "dark age," while they try to make do with FTL. Some races (like the Asari) were on the cusp of constructing their own Mass Relays, but the need was never there. Now, there is a need and the galactic races will adjust accordingly.

The problem Bioware had with that premise is that they failed utterly in its delivery.

[Warbuckaz]

Can anyone answer where the heck the reapers even came from?? if they didnt use the relay in "Arrival" (sorry i forget that relays name) how did they get to Earth and the other system so quick? I think the answer to whether or not relay are truly necessary lies in this answer.

[Capeo]

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Reapers has FTL that allows to travel many times faster. From point where they were in Arrival DLC, it'd take them at least thousands of years to reach the galaxy, maybe even millions. By using classic FTL. Yet it took them 6 months. Yes.. so advanced. Organics can harness this technology. And why did relay blow up? Because Bioware wanted. You can't argue with that.

So the combined fleets of the galaxy stuck at an Earth whos infrustructure has been obliterated are going to "harness" this reaper tech how?  Exactly how are they getting home?  Shipyards that magically weren't destroyed by the Reapers?  You're telling me that it's some kind of minor retrofit to make these ships fly 2.5 times fasters then they presently do?  Which is by the way, the speed of the Reapers FTL drives. Not the nonsense numbers I've seen floating around on the boards.

The codex also tells us that some the distances the relays can traverse instantly are "Centuries" apart using conventional FTL drives.  Compare Ranoch's location to Earths and you see the problem with the Quarians getting home.  

Any solution Bioware offers to these problems will be a hand wave that is not consistent with existing lore.  I have no doubt that 200 years in the future, the races of the galaxy will have no problem getting from point A to point B.  But the immediate future after the battle for Earth is a nightmare, and Bioware has painted themselves into quite a corner.

The codex contradicts itself at times.  The centuries apart thing doesn't makes sense if FTLs go 12 ly a day.  The Milky Way is 120,000 ly from edge to edge at it's widest.  That's only 28 years from end to end.  Obviously that super optimal but it certainly doesn't gel with centuries.

[Russmandarin]

Well if Bioware goes through with this retcon they are basically set to increase the speed of their ships to near instantaneous levels if it can replace the necessity for Mass relay travel.
The codex never contradicts itself its more like the gameplay and cutscenes contradic the codex

Modifié par Russmandarin, 10 avril 2012 - 07:05 .

[charon45]

Capeo wrote...


The codex contradicts itself at times.  The centuries apart thing doesn't makes sense if FTLs go 12 ly a day.  The Milky Way is 120,000 ly from edge to edge at it's widest.  That's only 28 years from end to end.  Obviously that super optimal but it certainly doesn't gel with centuries.

You are assuming continuous travel.  Centuries makes more sense if you remember that conventional ships would not always be moving at FTL speeds.  They need to stop and refuel, or discharge the static from the engines or resupply or make repairs.  Edge to edge is also a bad way to judge because the game says that ships can't pass through the galactic core safely.  That is why the Collector base was there.   

[OhoniX]

THIS! How does everyone miss this fact? A brief jaunt around a small cluster of stars burns the Normandy's entire fuel reserve. Going from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another would take 100 times that much fuel. Where are they going to get that while on the go? There's not enough room in the ship to even hold it.

It's been covered in other threads. We would definitely NOT see ships like the Normandy taking off across the galaxy on their own. That would fail. What we could see is ORGANIZED FLEETS, large collections of ships that include dedicated fuel tankers, production facilities, mining crafts, scouting vessels, etc. The fuel they use in ME is fairly common in gas giants, so they shouldn't have any real trouble harvesting it as they go.

Now, in the long term, if they never rebuild the relay network then they would likely need to build refueling stations all over the galaxy to facilitate smaller ships making solo trips, but even that wouldn't be an unreasonable effort.

The codex also tells us that some the distances the relays can traverse instantly are "Centuries" apart using conventional FTL drives. Compare Ranoch's location to Earths and you see the problem with the Quarians getting home.

Rannoch is only around 15-20 years form Earth at existing FTL speeds.

Edge to edge is also a bad way to judge because the game says that ships can't pass through the galactic core safely. That is why the Collector base was there.

True, but edge to edge is still good for determining an average travel speed (ie if you could theoretically get edge to edge in 28 years, then going corner to diagonal corner would only take about half that). None of the capital worlds would require passing through the galactic core.

[Fawx9]

Even if we reach a state where we can traverse it in ~30 years the galactic community will be forever destroyed. You cannot have trade routes that take years to complete. it just would not be sustainable.

It's going to take centuries to get some planets up and running to where they were again and others are just going to die out because of lack of consistent supplies.

Modifié par Fawx9, 10 avril 2012 - 11:33 .

[GraysonJ507]

Haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has already been brought up, but don't they still have quantum telecommunications(or whatever the proper term is lol)? I don't see why clusters couldn't keep in relatively constant contact. If the technology was available, then they could easily coordinate the building of mass relays between systems. At the least, major homeworld systems might be able to pull it off. This would void the "build a relay but nowhere to go" argument.

[DoomManiac]

can't they use the reaper technology to build new ones.....

[brian_breed]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I find it pointless in the sense of the narrative. Why have an action take place if that action is then undone. It would be better to not have that situation at all and instead devote resources to an action that will have a more lasting effect. Rebuilding the Relays makes their destruction pointless since there is no narrative fallout save a time lag in restoring the status quo. A better action to take would have been to destroy Earth but keep the Relays, since you cannot rebuild a planet.

This is not really an uncommon event in any sort of narrative, because it's not really an uncommon event in our reality.

I think it's safe to say that the relays aren't going to be rebuilt tomorrow, and I think everyone can agree that the current rate of travel is very complicating to the galaxy right now.  The only real benefit is that we can still communicate in real time.

That itself was one hell of a retcon. In Mass Effect 2, QECs were prohibitively expensive and suddenly even non-millitary personnel - including Emily Wong - have access to them in Mass Effect 3?

[brian_breed]

Capeo wrote...

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Reapers has FTL that allows to travel many times faster. From point where they were in Arrival DLC, it'd take them at least thousands of years to reach the galaxy, maybe even millions. By using classic FTL. Yet it took them 6 months. Yes.. so advanced. Organics can harness this technology. And why did relay blow up? Because Bioware wanted. You can't argue with that.

So the combined fleets of the galaxy stuck at an Earth whos infrustructure has been obliterated are going to "harness" this reaper tech how?  Exactly how are they getting home?  Shipyards that magically weren't destroyed by the Reapers?  You're telling me that it's some kind of minor retrofit to make these ships fly 2.5 times fasters then they presently do?  Which is by the way, the speed of the Reapers FTL drives. Not the nonsense numbers I've seen floating around on the boards.

The codex also tells us that some the distances the relays can traverse instantly are "Centuries" apart using conventional FTL drives.  Compare Ranoch's location to Earths and you see the problem with the Quarians getting home.  

Any solution Bioware offers to these problems will be a hand wave that is not consistent with existing lore.  I have no doubt that 200 years in the future, the races of the galaxy will have no problem getting from point A to point B.  But the immediate future after the battle for Earth is a nightmare, and Bioware has painted themselves into quite a corner.

The codex contradicts itself at times.  The centuries apart thing doesn't makes sense if FTLs go 12 ly a day.  The Milky Way is 120,000 ly from edge to edge at it's widest.  That's only 28 years from end to end.  Obviously that super optimal but it certainly doesn't gel with centuries.

Sure it does, when you factor in suitable drive discharge locations, the impossibility of making  a bee-line through the galactic core, the relative emptiness of the galaxy which requries circuitous routes, time spent scanning and acquiring suitable resources ... need I go on?

Modifié par brian_breed, 11 avril 2012 - 12:37 .

[Zuka999]

I've said it before and I will say it again, without the Mass Relays, Mass Effect is just another Star Wars clone. Just another wanked FTL warp drive soft science baloney. Ugh.

[BogdanV]

brian_breed wrote...

That itself was one hell of a retcon. In Mass Effect 2, QECs were prohibitively expensive and suddenly even non-millitary personnel - including Emily Wong - have access to them in Mass Effect 3?

 I don't know how Emily Wong got access to one of those, but before you said that, I just assumed that QECs were high-grade strategic assets developed by the military in wake of the Reaper invasion. 
 No one's gonna' care about the Alliance's military budget when Reapers are knocking at your door, right ?

 Also, it didn't seem like they were mass produced. According to Anderson, it would be implied that they are strategically placed across Earth, and because of them being strictly bidirectional transceivers, I'd imagine them as some form of public property (if you say that just about anyone can use it), community service, like telegraph stations were back in the days.

 Still, why would civilians want to use QECs when the Extranet seems far more suited for their needs ?





 Damn, sorry for going off-topic, but this just caught my attention.

Modifié par BogdanV, 11 avril 2012 - 12:55 .