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[Leafs43]

CapnManx wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

The Reapers wanted people using the mass relays so that they wouldn't invest too heavily in alternatives. This suggests that alternatives are likely enough to cause them concern.

As for why the Reapers use them... well, why wouldn't they? They're right there.

Gee I don't know, why use the citadel as a mass relay itself?  Just use it as a staging grounds and use a different method to sack the citadel.  That way nothing could possibly go wrong.

They did.

If they had a better way to travel, why use the citadel at all?  Why not use worm holes or other sci fi ideas?  Surely the reapers would have discovered that technology after millions of years of being a galactic conquering race of super cuddlefish.

They could use the citadel as a choke point for younger races, but they wouldn't require using it as a transportation node and take control of it.

That's why the "multiple path" theory is illogical.

Modifié par Leafs43, 09 avril 2012 - 11:23 .

[LucasShark]

tekkaman fear wrote...

Or, the survivors could always find an intact reaper and download relay making 101 from its corpse.

Ugh does noone read preceeding posts?

[Ubergrog]

Well, here is the way I see it.

The "Lost in space" theory is only partially true. They know where the other major population centers and colony worlds that are still standing are. If they can build a relay, it would be a matter of making said relay, connecting it to a world they know can support the construction of another, and move the whole construction fleet from there. It would take a LONG ass time to do, but it would work. Once the major trade routes had been established, work can be done to rebuild all of the other relays that led to other parts of the galaxy.


The first big issue is one of logistics. They will need to first stabilize what is left, use what they have to survive and rebuild, and then dedicate resources to the cause. With the sheer scale of the destruction on all major worlds, this is not likely since Casey Hudson has about as much writing capacity as a dead lemur.

[AIR MOORE]

Yup, brought this up a bagillion times before...

As I have also said before the Extended Cut DLC will simply not respond to the all important:

HOW (in detail) of: Who, what, when, why, how? It simply will seem to state "since we are BioWare, we can say this despite what the entire trilogy has overtly stated or implied"... to fix the HOW of just the MAJOR problems they need to cover with the ending would take hours of cinematic, or a long book worth of epilogue/codex to explain how these things are done without speculation/conflicting with previous establishment/lore/codex/implications.

(As the one movie states regarding the ending: In the ME universe - detail matters-).


Of course this remains to be seen, but I'd hedge a bet my prediction is spot on.

[Riion]

Destroying the Relays is unnecessary as a plot device, but they'll probably write it in anyways. Because they're cool like that.

[CapnManx]

Leafs43 wrote...




If they had a better way to travel, why use the citadel at all?

They could use the citadel as a choke point for younger races, but they wouldn't require using it as a transportation node and take control of it.

That's why the "multiple path" theory is illogical.

The relays allow near instant travel across great distances; there is a tactical advantage there that has nothing to do with distances or speed, but rather surprise.  Vigil claimed the Prothean civilization had been crippled before they even knew they were under attack; that is what is accomplished by using the Citadel as their means of entry into the galaxy.

If they just flew there, someone might see them.

[tekkaman fear]

LucasShark wrote...

tekkaman fear wrote...

Or, the survivors could always find an intact reaper and download relay making 101 from its corpse.

Ugh does noone read preceeding posts?

Your frustration is uneeded. Having a relay to connect to goes without saying at this point. Which, given everything else is a simple problem with a simple answer. Either fly to the nxt point. Or, use comms to transmit the data to races on the other end. 

[grey_wind]

I'm in agreement with the OP. Saying the mass relays were unnecessary is the biggest handwave ever. It invalidates the reapers being the apex of evolution (though the catalyst already did that) along with the the very thing the entire universe and setting was built on.

[AIR MOORE]

Ubergrog wrote......
The "Lost in space" theory is only partially true. They know where the other major population centers and colony worlds that are still standing are. If they can build a relay, it would be a matter of making said relay, connecting it to a world they know can support the construction of another, and move the whole construction fleet from there. It would take a LONG ass time to do, but it would work. ...

The problem with this is twofold:

1) Relays work shooting you from relay to relay, you can't say: "I know this world is fine I want to go 'X/Y/Z' and go there" the other place would already need to have another relay in place and working.

2) It would take a long **** time... so explain how our depleted and crushed system is going to sustain a galaxy? These people came to fight a final battle with the crucible against the reapers... they did not expect a prolonged battle, and bringing surplus food supplies instead of war supplies simply doesn't make sense.



-Also, the citadel has always been the "master" relay, what is going to be the new master relay? Before people say "oh that isn't needed"... where are you getting this from besides speculation, it seems like it's kind of an important piece of the relay system to have a "master control"... as the citadel acted as. AFAWK, the citadel is a needed piece as it has always been there, and no one has stated otherwise for mass relays to work, where they stated they never really fully understood the tech.

Modifié par AIR MOORE, 09 avril 2012 - 11:32 .

[djspectre]

LucasShark wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

I agree:
- In the codex it is clearly stated that with FTL flight it would take "decades or centuries" to cross between the clusters populated thanks to mass relays
- Drive discharge makes crossing infinite voids of space 100 percent impossible given the rules laid out thus far, see quote: "Barriers to exploration"
- Even the Reapers, with their "superior" FTL flight capabilities took 6-7 months to get from the Alpha Relay in Arrival to anothr viable onefor the start of ME3

(Yes I'm quoting myself)

Addition: I've seen the "but they can just rebuild the Mass Relays" argument about 1000 times: No.

The tech might exist yes, but even if you manage to build one: this leads to what I like to call "Lost in space the movie problem", in that now you have one: but you need to pull that trick again on the other side, rins, repeat.

Mass Relay's are tied to each other in pairs (in most cases). It's very similar to a fax machine. You must have one on the other end to recieve the fax (in this case a ship). So who ever built them had the time to physically drag a paired relay to its destination location OR travel there using conventional FTL with enough personnel to build the corresponding pair. Further, if they were building these relays in new systems, how did they know those systems even had enough resources to build additional relays?

Also, the statement about drive discharge is true, though it's never stated if Reapers have to discharge their FTL drives from time to time or not. 

Honestly, the mystery of how the relays were formed will remain a mystery. 

However, the Asari, who do live for 1000 years, do have the technology and the time on their hands to build new relays. Matriarch Aethyta stated that she once suggested that they begin building their own relays, implying the Asari in fact can do it. The entire conversations held in the Temple on Thessia where a beacon was cleverly hidden is more proof that the Asari know way more than they ever let on to the rest of the Galaxy. 

[Leafs43]

CapnManx wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...




If they had a better way to travel, why use the citadel at all?

They could use the citadel as a choke point for younger races, but they wouldn't require using it as a transportation node and take control of it.

That's why the "multiple path" theory is illogical.

The relays allow near instant travel across great distances; there is a tactical advantage there that has nothing to do with distances or speed, but rather surprise.  Vigil claimed the Prothean civilization had been crippled before they even knew they were under attack; that is what is accomplished by using the Citadel as their means of entry into the galaxy.

If they just flew there, someone might see them.

And they ended up having to fly because the reapers had no other alternative to the mass relays.

How are you not seeing this?

The reapers, a super race of cuddlefish and all their advanced technology, were delayed 6 months because they couldn't use the mass relays.....how can you possibly think the citadel races can even begin to mirror the travel of the mass relays, let alone the reapers themselves?

[humes spork]

Ooh, is this another "I reject any premise that might make me hate the ending less, because I just want to hate the ending" thread, or is this a serious discussion?

Modifié par humes spork, 09 avril 2012 - 11:31 .

[Spectre-00N7]

tekkaman fear wrote...

Or, the survivors could always find an intact reaper and download relay making 101 from its corpse.

hmmm, interesting.  How do they link up the mass relay they just created with the other relays.... oh.... they blew up too.  Time to go make more relays on the other side of the galaxy using FTL... <_<   SPACE MAGIC

[Saul Iscariot]

Serious discussion I'm afraid.

@ Spectre, as has already been mentioned, the Protheans and the Asaari seem capable of creating their own relays and it is possible to communicate across interstellar distances so they could pass the know how on.

Modifié par Saul Iscariot, 09 avril 2012 - 11:35 .

[Acidrain92]

Jesus. The way you guys talk about Mass Relays its as if you want them as an LI option >.>

[Delta_V2]

Alternatives might be possible (like figuring out Reaper FTL), but good luck developing them when your industrial base is fubar and everyone is isolated. If galactic civilization could pool their knowledge and resources, they might be able to figure something out, but that is impossible without the relays.

And everyone who thinks they can just rebuild the relays: even if they knew how, those things are massive, and given the state of most planets' industrial bases, building something of that scale will probably remain out of their reach for a long time.

[CapnManx]

Leafs43 wrote...




And they ended up having to fly because the reapers had no other alternative to the mass relays.

How are you not seeing this?

The reapers, a super race of cuddlefish and all their advanced technology, were delayed 6 months because they couldn't use the mass relays.....how can you possibly think the citadel races can even begin to mirror the travel of the mass relays, let alone the reapers themselves?

I didn't say they could; I just said that there were alternatives.

The galaxy doesn't need to be able to pick itself up right away, nor does it need to reassemble itself in the same pattern it had before.

An era has ended; with a brightly coloured bang.  Doesn't mean the next era is necessarily a lost cause.

[tekkaman fear]

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

tekkaman fear wrote...

Or, the survivors could always find an intact reaper and download relay making 101 from its corpse.

hmmm, interesting.  How do they link up the mass relay they just created with the other relays.... oh.... they blew up too.  Time to go make more relays on the other side of the galaxy using FTL... <_<   SPACE MAGIC

Hey, no one said it wouldn't take a few decades. Besides you just need to build a few main ones around the galaxy. More can be added later.

But if it was up to me I would rather use my other idea of finding more already built relays that were dormant/ buried somewhere. They escaped destruction cause they were not linked to the other relays. Simple solution! And no space required!

[djspectre]

CapnManx wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...




If they had a better way to travel, why use the citadel at all?

They could use the citadel as a choke point for younger races, but they wouldn't require using it as a transportation node and take control of it.

That's why the "multiple path" theory is illogical.

The relays allow near instant travel across great distances; there is a tactical advantage there that has nothing to do with distances or speed, but rather surprise.  Vigil claimed the Prothean civilization had been crippled before they even knew they were under attack; that is what is accomplished by using the Citadel as their means of entry into the galaxy.

If they just flew there, someone might see them.

What I never understood was that if the Citadel is a giant mass relay....and all relays need a corresponding twin....then that means there must be at least 1 more relay in Dark Space still. The ending cinematic clearly showed the citadel blowing up as it sent the overload message to the Charon relay, but at no point did that blast leave the galaxy. 

What happened to it? What if not all the Reapers came into the galaxy? The way Sovereign was left behind as a vanguard to monitor the progression of organics. 

[tekkaman fear]

djspectre wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...




If they had a better way to travel, why use the citadel at all?

They could use the citadel as a choke point for younger races, but they wouldn't require using it as a transportation node and take control of it.

That's why the "multiple path" theory is illogical.

The relays allow near instant travel across great distances; there is a tactical advantage there that has nothing to do with distances or speed, but rather surprise.  Vigil claimed the Prothean civilization had been crippled before they even knew they were under attack; that is what is accomplished by using the Citadel as their means of entry into the galaxy.

If they just flew there, someone might see them.

What I never understood was that if the Citadel is a giant mass relay....and all relays need a corresponding twin....then that means there must be at least 1 more relay in Dark Space still. The ending cinematic clearly showed the citadel blowing up as it sent the overload message to the Charon relay, but at no point did that blast leave the galaxy. 

What happened to it? What if not all the Reapers came into the galaxy? The way Sovereign was left behind as a vanguard to monitor the progression of organics. 

Writer over sight. Sovy clearly said the Citadel open a path for the Reapers to enter. Which means there has to be  a relay in dark space.

[djspectre]

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Serious discussion I'm afraid.

@ Spectre, as has already been mentioned, the Protheans and the Asaari seem capable of creating their own relays and it is possible to communicate across interstellar distances so they could pass the know how on.

Not possible, the com bouy system was destroyed in every civilized system the reapers entered. The only thing that worked was the Quantum Entanglement Communicator which was point to point (had to build special devices at each end, again, like the Relays). One was on the Citadel for the council (destroyed with the Council), another was on the Normandy (also destroyed) and the rest were on earth, which now point to nothing. 

Trans-galactic communication is effectively dead. 

[Saul Iscariot]

Maybe the citadel uses another form of FTL travel and that is how it got to earth?

[Leafs43]

tekkaman fear wrote...

djspectre wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...




If they had a better way to travel, why use the citadel at all?

They could use the citadel as a choke point for younger races, but they wouldn't require using it as a transportation node and take control of it.

That's why the "multiple path" theory is illogical.

The relays allow near instant travel across great distances; there is a tactical advantage there that has nothing to do with distances or speed, but rather surprise.  Vigil claimed the Prothean civilization had been crippled before they even knew they were under attack; that is what is accomplished by using the Citadel as their means of entry into the galaxy.

If they just flew there, someone might see them.

What I never understood was that if the Citadel is a giant mass relay....and all relays need a corresponding twin....then that means there must be at least 1 more relay in Dark Space still. The ending cinematic clearly showed the citadel blowing up as it sent the overload message to the Charon relay, but at no point did that blast leave the galaxy. 

What happened to it? What if not all the Reapers came into the galaxy? The way Sovereign was left behind as a vanguard to monitor the progression of organics. 

Writer over sight. Sovy clearly said the Citadel open a path for the Reapers to enter. Which means there has to be  a relay in dark space.

Doesn't matter because no one will be able to explore dark space and no one even knows where to begin looking.

[Delta_V2]

djspectre wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...




If they had a better way to travel, why use the citadel at all?

They could use the citadel as a choke point for younger races, but they wouldn't require using it as a transportation node and take control of it.

That's why the "multiple path" theory is illogical.

The relays allow near instant travel across great distances; there is a tactical advantage there that has nothing to do with distances or speed, but rather surprise.  Vigil claimed the Prothean civilization had been crippled before they even knew they were under attack; that is what is accomplished by using the Citadel as their means of entry into the galaxy.

If they just flew there, someone might see them.

What I never understood was that if the Citadel is a giant mass relay....and all relays need a corresponding twin....then that means there must be at least 1 more relay in Dark Space still. The ending cinematic clearly showed the citadel blowing up as it sent the overload message to the Charon relay, but at no point did that blast leave the galaxy. 

What happened to it? What if not all the Reapers came into the galaxy? The way Sovereign was left behind as a vanguard to monitor the progression of organics. 

I think Bioware forgot about the whole "need two relays to actually do anything" bit once in a while.  Heck, even the galaxy map doesn't make sense.  Most systems with a relay would need to have more than one for it to actually accomplish anything.  Think about it, Earth only has one relay, and that only links to Arcturus.  That relay in Arcturus would then only link back to Earth.  There would have to be another relay in Arcturus in order for you to actually get out into the rest of the galaxy, otherwise you'd only be able to go back and forth between two systems.

EDIT: And don't forget the Conduit.  Vigil said it was constructed by the team on Ilos, but in order for them to use it to travel to the Citadel, they would have needed to have already placed another relay on the Citadel.

Modifié par Delta_V2, 09 avril 2012 - 11:43 .

[humes spork]

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Serious discussion I'm afraid.

Yeah...that this can somehow be a serious conversation makes me want to facepalm. Seriously, the writing was on the wall that the relays were toast from practically the moment Sovereign "opened his yap". Reaper tech, trap, retards organics species' technological development on purpose and herds them into easily-harvestable swathes of space...really, there's any question the relays were going to be gone by the point Mordin had his own little turn at the "Reaper-invoked bottlenecked technological development is bad" grindwheel?

Really, do we need Mr. Hat out here saying "mass relays are bad, mmm'kay?" before we collectively get it?

Some people will go to any length of mental gymnastics to justify their own beliefs.

Modifié par humes spork, 09 avril 2012 - 11:45 .