440 réponses à ce sujet

[2484Stryker]

Doesn't it seem interesting that BioWare and their defenders are having to come up with outside-of-lore explanations for a lot of things these days?

1) Mass Relay explosions don't wipe out entire systems even though they did in Arrival because they're...well...different...
2) FTL travel is difficult when we have Mass Relays, but not so bad when we don't

[Delta_V2]

humes spork wrote...

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Serious discussion I'm afraid.

Yeah...that this can somehow be a serious conversation makes me want to facepalm. Seriously, the writing was on the wall that the relays were toast from practically the moment Sovereign "opened his yap". Reaper tech, trap, retards organics species' technological development on purpose and herds them into easily-harvestable swathes of space...really, there's any question the relays were going to be gone by the point Mordin had his own little turn at the "Reaper-invoked bottlenecked technological development is bad" grindwheel?

Some people will go to any length of mental gymnastics to justify their own beliefs.

See, I never saw the need to destroy the Relays.  Sure, it was likely by the end of the game, but I didn't see it as a necessity.  The Relays are just tools, and weren't inherently evil.  They were used for an evil purpose by the Reapers, but if you can get rid of the Reapers, I see no reason not to use these tools.

[djspectre]

tekkaman fear wrote...

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

tekkaman fear wrote...

Or, the survivors could always find an intact reaper and download relay making 101 from its corpse.

hmmm, interesting.  How do they link up the mass relay they just created with the other relays.... oh.... they blew up too.  Time to go make more relays on the other side of the galaxy using FTL... <_<   SPACE MAGIC

Hey, no one said it wouldn't take a few decades. Besides you just need to build a few main ones around the galaxy. More can be added later.

But if it was up to me I would rather use my other idea of finding more already built relays that were dormant/ buried somewhere. They escaped destruction cause they were not linked to the other relays. Simple solution! And no space required!

I don't think you can find any more that are dormant. The idea was that each of the relays knew of the location of each of the other relays they connected to...even if they drifted out of position or were covered in ice. This is proven in ME1 when Benezia tells you about the Mu relay. That relay was blown out of position when the star it was orbiting went supernova. Yet it still functioned and it's twin at Ilos still knew it's position because (in ME2) council research teams went to Ilos and back (thus how they knew Vigil was no longer functioning).

So if every relay knows of it's twin(s) they the signal would have been sent there as well and those would have been destroyed as well I would think. 

And ANY device that can withstand a solar sytem-destroying supernova I would think could easily still be functioning even if under some ice and rock (Charon relay, as an example).

[Hudathan]

2484Stryker wrote...

Doesn't it seem interesting that BioWare and their defenders are having to come up with outside-of-lore explanations for a lot of things these days?

1) Mass Relay explosions don't wipe out entire systems even though they did in Arrival because they're...well...different...
2) FTL travel is difficult when we have Mass Relays, but not so bad when we don't

Pretty difficult to use your own eyes.

[Leafs43]

Hudathan wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

Doesn't it seem interesting that BioWare and their defenders are having to come up with outside-of-lore explanations for a lot of things these days?

1) Mass Relay explosions don't wipe out entire systems even though they did in Arrival because they're...well...different...
2) FTL travel is difficult when we have Mass Relays, but not so bad when we don't

Pretty difficult to use your own eyes.

The white light is an explosion the kills everything, green light magically makes everything an organic-synthetic hybrid.:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

[humes spork]

2484Stryker wrote...

1) Mass Relay explosions don't wipe out entire systems even though they did in Arrival because they're...well...different...

Object Rho, another Reaper artifact of immeasurable power output and energy draw, was involved in that explosion as well.

2) FTL travel is difficult when we have Mass Relays, but not so bad when we don't

Please demonstrate where in the lore it states FTL as used by the various races of the galaxy, including the Reapers, is at peak efficiency and output, and cannot be further refined as a technology.

[Leafs43]

humes spork wrote...

[
Object Rho, another Reaper artifact of immeasurable power output and energy draw, was involved in that explosion as well.


Please demonstrate where in the lore it states FTL as used by the various races of the galaxy, including the Reapers, is at peak efficiency and output, and cannot be further refined as a technology.

Now you're retconning that object rho was part of the reason for the massive explosion when when that wasn't even implied and you believe that the reaper weren't smart enough to optimize FTL but able to build mass relays....


And you want to talk about people doing mental gymnastics?

[Saul Iscariot]

@ Humes, the discussion is whether relays are essential to the FTL travel in the ME Universe, there isn't a right or wrong answer as any point can be validated or invalidated.

[djspectre]

Delta_V2 wrote...



I think Bioware forgot about the whole "need two relays to actually do anything" bit once in a while.  Heck, even the galaxy map doesn't make sense.  Most systems with a relay would need to have more than one for it to actually accomplish anything.  Think about it, Earth only has one relay, and that only links to Arcturus.  That relay in Arcturus would then only link back to Earth.  There would have to be another relay in Arcturus in order for you to actually get out into the rest of the galaxy, otherwise you'd only be able to go back and forth between two systems.

EDIT: And don't forget the Conduit.  Vigil said it was constructed by the team on Ilos, but in order for them to use it to travel to the Citadel, they would have needed to have already placed another relay on the Citadel.

No, the writers covered their 'one-to-one' relay ratio issue in the codex. It's stated that A LOT OF relays point to a single other relay, but not all. In ME1 if you move your mouse around the galaxy map it shows the red arrows indicating all the systems you have to pass through to go from one end of the galaxy to the other (example, from the Citadel to the Kepler Verge). 

The Codex goes on to state that some are omni-directional. While omni would indicate it could go to ANY relay, it was really meant to say it can go to just more than one. 

[Delta_V2]

humes spork wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

1) Mass Relay explosions don't wipe out entire systems even though they did in Arrival because they're...well...different...

Object Rho, another Reaper artifact of immeasurable power output and energy draw, was involved in that explosion as well.

2) FTL travel is difficult when we have Mass Relays, but not so bad when we don't

Please demonstrate where in the lore it states FTL as used by the various races of the galaxy, including the Reapers, is at peak efficiency and output, and cannot be further refined as a technology.

Again, probably wouldn't have been that big of a deal before the Reaper invasion, but without galactic communication and with most planets' industrial and research bases totally fubar, it will probably be out of civilization's reach for quite some time.

edit: @ djspectre: yes, I was aware of the omni-directional relays, but I was under the impression that point-to-point relays made up the backbone of the network.  Since they were referred to as "Primary" Relays in the Codex, while omni-directional ones were called Secondary Relays, I assumed the ones labeled "Primary" were the most important/prevalent.

Modifié par Delta_V2, 09 avril 2012 - 11:58 .

[Hudathan]

Leafs43 wrote...

The white light is an explosion the kills everything, green light magically makes everything an organic-synthetic hybrid.:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

Mass effect energy is used to do everything from breaking down placque, making mini black holes, to breaking the speed of light. But when it's time for the Crucible it's somehow space magic! 

[Leafs43]

Hudathan wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

The white light is an explosion the kills everything, green light magically makes everything an organic-synthetic hybrid.:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

Mass effect energy is used to do everything from breaking down placque, making mini black holes, to breaking the speed of light. But when it's time for the Crucible it's somehow space magic! 

Yess, because they have described how the mass effect works.

What isn't described is how you make machines organic when machinces don't even have DNA.

[humes spork]

Leafs43 wrote...

Now you're retconning that object rho was part of the reason for the massive explosion when when that wasn't even implied and you believe that the reaper weren't smart enough to optimize FTL but able to build mass relays....

An unknown is not equivalent to a retcon. Retroactive continuity -- which is shortened to "retcon" -- is retroactively changing established lore, not filling in gaps in lore or unknown factors. I'm demonstrating an unknown factor. That is not the same thing as a retcon.

http://en.wikipedia....tive_continuity 

Get your terminology straight if you're going to attempt to lecture me on what is and is not a retcon.

And, communications and transportation technology has this nasty little habit of following the path of least resistance, in the face of necessity. Who or whatever was responsible for the Reapers also built the mass relays, why would they need better FTL?

See, I never saw the need to destroy the Relays.  Sure, it was likely by the end of the game, but I didn't see it as a necessity.  The Relays are just tools, and weren't inherently evil.  They were used for an evil purpose by the Reapers, but if you can get rid of the Reapers, I see no reason not to use these tools. 

Well, it comes down to this. For lack of desire to be tactful, the relays make the organic races stupid and lazy. This is tacitly and explicitly demonstrated time and again in the universe.

For example, you're telling me that in 2,700 years of technological development, the one race in the galactic community with an utter, complete obsession with technological development, espionage and secrecy couldn't figure out on their own internal emissions sinks? Humans -- the technologically backwards space hillbillies -- figured it out in under 40. Humans also figured out quantum entanglement communications -- you know, the unhackable, unmonitorable from the outside, communications technology independent from mass relays. Both of those things salarians would have given both cranial horns to have, and they had almost 3,000 years to do it! The only parismonious, reasonable inferrence to be made from this and other things is that salarians were just as stupid and lazy as the other races.

Modifié par humes spork, 10 avril 2012 - 12:04 .

[djspectre]

Hudathan wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

Doesn't it seem interesting that BioWare and their defenders are having to come up with outside-of-lore explanations for a lot of things these days?

1) Mass Relay explosions don't wipe out entire systems even though they did in Arrival because they're...well...different...
2) FTL travel is difficult when we have Mass Relays, but not so bad when we don't

Pretty difficult to use your own eyes.

There was an interview at PAX that stated that the Relays didn't 'go nova' the way it did in Arrival. 

The Arrival was an unexpected impact of an asteroid that caused an explosion and detonation of an insane amount of Eezo with an entirely unknown power source. 

The ending cinematic of ME3 however, show's the relays speeding up then coming to a complete stop before, what appears to be, discharging all that energy to the next relay. It's very possible, the 'blast' sent from the citadel also included a set of instructions to halt relay activity, power its core down, then self destruct safely. 

I imagine that any race that has the ability to create a transgalactic subway system, could easily account for a safe shut down/dismanteling of their own equipment. 

[XXIceColdXX]

Agree with OP. they need to recon destroying the relays .

[Leafs43]

humes spork wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Now you're retconning that object rho was part of the reason for the massive explosion when when that wasn't even implied and you believe that the reaper weren't smart enough to optimize FTL but able to build mass relays....

An unknown is not equivalent to a retcon. Retroactive continuity -- which is shortened to "retcon" -- is retroactively changing established lore, not filling in gaps in lore or unknown factors. I'm demonstrating an unknown factor. That is not the same thing as a retcon.

http://en.wikipedia....tive_continuity 

Get your terminology straight if you're going to attempt to lecture me on what is and is not a retcon.

And, communications and transportation technology has this nasty little habit of following the path of least resistance, in the face of necessity. Who or whatever was responsible for the Reapers also built the mass relays, why would they need better FTL?

You're the one making it like object rho was a giant bomb when no where it was said, stated or even hinted at.  That is retconning.

[Lozark]

The Mass Relays would have been even more important after the war. The Reapers make a point to destroy all the fuel refineries they can, so fuel for a trans-galactic trip is going to be hard to come by.

[lazuli]

In all this hubbub, it's amazing the word "retcon" hasn't been thrown around all that much.

[Saul Iscariot]

If you alter the machine on a subatomic level then it would be possible to give it a semi organic based DNA system. Clay is not alive but its atoms have been seen to resemble the structure of DNA in certain configurations.

[Annora]

All of the galaxy's brightest minds in one place, and you seriously think they can't figure out how to improve on technology they already have? I reject your rejection.

[Delta_V2]

djspectre wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

Doesn't it seem interesting that BioWare and their defenders are having to come up with outside-of-lore explanations for a lot of things these days?

1) Mass Relay explosions don't wipe out entire systems even though they did in Arrival because they're...well...different...
2) FTL travel is difficult when we have Mass Relays, but not so bad when we don't

Pretty difficult to use your own eyes.

There was an interview at PAX that stated that the Relays didn't 'go nova' the way it did in Arrival. 

The Arrival was an unexpected impact of an asteroid that caused an explosion and detonation of an insane amount of Eezo with an entirely unknown power source. 

The ending cinematic of ME3 however, show's the relays speeding up then coming to a complete stop before, what appears to be, discharging all that energy to the next relay. It's very possible, the 'blast' sent from the citadel also included a set of instructions to halt relay activity, power its core down, then self destruct safely. 

I imagine that any race that has the ability to create a transgalactic subway system, could easily account for a safe shut down/dismanteling of their own equipment. 

It was obvious Bioware didn't intend for them to go nova like Arrival, but they really should have taken the time to explain it better.  I mean, in Arrival, they show us that exploding relay = wiped out star system, and then in ME3, without saying anything to the contrary, they show all the relays blowing up.  They should have realized what this implied, even if we can extrapolate what they intended, something this important should have been explained better.

[Leafs43]

Anastassia wrote...

All of the galaxy's brightest minds in one place, and you seriously think they can't figure out how to improve on technology they already have? I reject your rejection.

Reapers are more intelligent than current races.

Your rejection of my rejection is facetious.

[Acidrain92]

The way I see it you cant have your cake and eat it too. You cant destroy the Reapers but keep their technology that they used specifically to herd us. I actually think the Mass Relays being destroyed was the best part about the ending.

Anastassia wrote...

All of the galaxy's brightest minds in one place, and you seriously think they can't figure out how to improve on technology they already have? I reject your rejection.

also what this guy said.

[MothrascoolerthenGodzilla]

At the rate the Normandy burns fuel using FTL, I don't see how any ship or fleet could have enough fuel to make an FTL trip across the galaxy.

[Spectre-00N7]

tekkaman fear wrote...
Hey, no one said it wouldn't take a few decades. Besides you just need to build a few main ones around the galaxy. More can be added later.

But if it was up to me I would rather use my other idea of finding more already built relays that were dormant/ buried somewhere.

It will take more than a few decades though.  They have to travel through uncharted territories and gather supplies along the way.  Then they have to link up these dormant relays with other dormant relays.  This means that they have to position them properly and make sure the path is safe.  They then have to go activate the other dormant relay and position it properly as well.  This also means that they have to know where the dormant relays are.  

Does this mean that the Galaxy can be united many years after the ending?  With an infinant time the probability becomes 100%, so yes.  Can we possibly come up with a timeline that everyone agrees with using the powers of speculation?  Most likely not. 

It makes Uniting the Galaxy seem really dumb when I just strand everyone on Earth and still get the same outcome as I would if I had the worst EMS rating.  Although Earth survives this way.... yay