440 réponses à ce sujet

[humes spork]

Leafs43 wrote...

You're the one making it like object rho was a giant bomb when no where it was said, stated or even hinted at.  That is retconning.

Actually, the point was made nobody knew what the hell Object Rho was. All that was known about it was,

1. It had kinetic barriers and mass effect fields strong enough to foil any known scanning technology.
2. It broadcasted some kind of signal. Part of that signal was an indoctrination signal, as is the case with most, if not all, active Reaper tech.

Focus on "nobody knew what Object Rho was". Again, filling in gaps of knowledge is not retconning. Changing established lore is. Quit bandying about the term when you can't even use it yourself properly even when the very definition of it is handed right to you.

Modifié par humes spork, 10 avril 2012 - 12:11 .

[CrutchCricket]

Acidrain92 wrote...

Jesus. The way you guys talk about Mass Relays its as if you want them as an LI option >.>

You know... I never realized how much I wanted the underlined.

Forget the lore guys. I just want to make it with a relay.

[Leafs43]

humes spork wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You're the one making it like object rho was a giant bomb when no where it was said, stated or even hinted at.  That is retconning.

Actually, the point was made nobody knew what the hell Object Rho was. All that was known about it was,

1. It had kinetic barriers and mass effect fields strong enough to foil any known scanning technology.
2. It broadcasted some kind of signal. Part of that signal was an indoctrination signal, as is the case with most, if not all, active Reaper tech.

Focus on "nobody knew what Object Rho was". Again, filling in gaps of knowledge is not retconning. Changing established lore is. Quit bandying about the term when you can't even use it yourself properly even when the very definition of it is handed right to you.

Nobody knows what object rho is, yet you are filling it in with your own self presrcibed details to fit your argument, i.e. retconning.

[Delta_V2]

humes spork wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Now you're retconning that object rho was part of the reason for the massive explosion when when that wasn't even implied and you believe that the reaper weren't smart enough to optimize FTL but able to build mass relays....

An unknown is not equivalent to a retcon. Retroactive continuity -- which is shortened to "retcon" -- is retroactively changing established lore, not filling in gaps in lore or unknown factors. I'm demonstrating an unknown factor. That is not the same thing as a retcon.

http://en.wikipedia....tive_continuity 

Get your terminology straight if you're going to attempt to lecture me on what is and is not a retcon.

And, communications and transportation technology has this nasty little habit of following the path of least resistance, in the face of necessity. Who or whatever was responsible for the Reapers also built the mass relays, why would they need better FTL?

See, I never saw the need to destroy the Relays.  Sure, it was likely by the end of the game, but I didn't see it as a necessity.  The Relays are just tools, and weren't inherently evil.  They were used for an evil purpose by the Reapers, but if you can get rid of the Reapers, I see no reason not to use these tools. 

Well, it comes down to this. For lack of desire to be tactful, the relays make the organic races stupid and lazy. This is tacitly and explicitly demonstrated time and again in the universe.

For example, you're telling me that in 2,700 years of technological development, the one race in the galactic community with an utter, complete obsession with technological development, espionage and secrecy couldn't figure out on their own internal emissions sinks? Humans -- the technologically backwards space hillbillies -- figured it out in under 40. Humans also figured out quantum entanglement communications -- you know, the unhackable, unmonitorable from the outside, communications technology independent from mass relays. Both of those things salarians would have given both cranial horns to have, and they had almost 3,000 years to do it! The only parismonious, reasonable inferrence to be made from this and other things is that salarians were just as stupid and lazy as the other races.

See, that's why I never thought it would be a problem for humanity.  If nothing else, there is one reason why we won't just get lazy with the mass relays: war.  I honestly find it hard to believe the other races haven't studied the relays more however many thousands of years they have been around.  The relay technology must have some potential military applications, and people will always try and find more efficient ways to kill the other guy before he kills them.

[djspectre]

Delta_V2 wrote...

djspectre wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

Doesn't it seem interesting that BioWare and their defenders are having to come up with outside-of-lore explanations for a lot of things these days?

1) Mass Relay explosions don't wipe out entire systems even though they did in Arrival because they're...well...different...
2) FTL travel is difficult when we have Mass Relays, but not so bad when we don't

Pretty difficult to use your own eyes.

There was an interview at PAX that stated that the Relays didn't 'go nova' the way it did in Arrival. 

The Arrival was an unexpected impact of an asteroid that caused an explosion and detonation of an insane amount of Eezo with an entirely unknown power source. 

The ending cinematic of ME3 however, show's the relays speeding up then coming to a complete stop before, what appears to be, discharging all that energy to the next relay. It's very possible, the 'blast' sent from the citadel also included a set of instructions to halt relay activity, power its core down, then self destruct safely. 

I imagine that any race that has the ability to create a transgalactic subway system, could easily account for a safe shut down/dismanteling of their own equipment. 

It was obvious Bioware didn't intend for them to go nova like Arrival, but they really should have taken the time to explain it better.  I mean, in Arrival, they show us that exploding relay = wiped out star system, and then in ME3, without saying anything to the contrary, they show all the relays blowing up.  They should have realized what this implied, even if we can extrapolate what they intended, something this important should have been explained better.

I agree, for those who are new to the series as well as those who didn't buy Arrival or see the ending cinematic (not that they couldn't youtube it though), but yes, perhaps show the relay breaking apart with the back drop of a solar system showing us that the systems survived and that what we saw on the galaxy map was just a release of energy light and not star systems being obliterated. 

[omphaloskepsis]

Anastassia wrote...
All of the galaxy's brightest minds in one place, and you seriously think they can't figure out how to improve on technology they already have? I reject your rejection.

Exactly.  Look at all of the issues here on Earth that have been fixed in just a few thousand years:
Cancer, SIDS, blindness, Ebola, starvation, the common cold.

Clearly all it takes to macgyver together a better FTL drive is a few bright people.  And they just have to do it before their resources give out and societies collapse.  It's not like there was a war going on or anything.

All it takes is a little... space magic!  There's enough going around that a little more won't hurt, anyway.

[CronoDragoon]

The relays are obviously optional on a big-picture scale. The real issue with destroying the relays is that now everyone you knew in the series has to spend years, possibly decades of their lives just trying to get home and enjoy what you won for them, if it's even possible. That is lame.

[Apathy1989]

LucasShark wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

I agree:
- In the codex it is clearly stated that with FTL flight it would take "decades or centuries" to cross between the clusters populated thanks to mass relays
- Drive discharge makes crossing infinite voids of space 100 percent impossible given the rules laid out thus far, see quote: "Barriers to exploration"
- Even the Reapers, with their "superior" FTL flight capabilities took 6-7 months to get from the Alpha Relay in Arrival to anothr viable onefor the start of ME3

(Yes I'm quoting myself)

Addition: I've seen the "but they can just rebuild the Mass Relays" argument about 1000 times: No.

The tech might exist yes, but even if you manage to build one: this leads to what I like to call "Lost in space the movie problem", in that now you have one: but you need to pull that trick again on the other side, rins, repeat.

The amount of spacial drift that happens when using the mass relays suggests (to me) that the exit relay isn't needed. Its just there for getting back.

The protheans built a mass relay, and while it isn't too far of a scretch to hope the current cycles races can do it too, I think its not something that was being researched heavily into. 

The protheans had hundreds of years, where the mass relays were under reaper control, so research was necessary.

On the other hand, this cycle has been suddenly cutt of from relays, with no chance to study.

[humes spork]

Leafs43 wrote...

Nobody knows what object rho is, yet you are filling it in with your own self presrcibed details to fit your argument, i.e. retconning.

No, I'm suggesting there was an intervening variable at play that renders facial assumptions suspect.

You want to reject that notion out of hand, that's most certainly your prerogative, but so it is mine to read this thread and, as I said earlier, conclude you're not actually interested in thinking about the ending or accepting arguments that perhaps might make the ending not as clear-cut as you make it out to be, instead just hating it for the sake of hating it.

You just admitted yourself that nobody knew what Object Rho was or what it did, yet you're simultaneously rejecting entirely out of hand the notion it might have had anything to do with the Alpha Relay explosion. And screaming "retcon" at the suggestion it just might have.

Modifié par humes spork, 10 avril 2012 - 12:32 .

[djspectre]

For example, you're telling me that in 2,700 years of technological development, the one race in the galactic community with an utter, complete obsession with technological development, espionage and secrecy couldn't figure out on their own internal emissions sinks? Humans -- the technologically backwards space hillbillies -- figured it out in under 40. Humans also figured out quantum entanglement communications -- you know, the unhackable, unmonitorable from the outside, communications technology independent from mass relays. Both of those things salarians would have given both cranial horns to have, and they had almost 3,000 years to do it! The only parismonious, reasonable inferrence to be made from this and other things is that salarians were just as stupid and lazy as the other races.

The QEC wasn't totally unmonitorable. Emily Wong (in the Twitter feed they did for her) stated she had some miniaturized version of it that she was able to use sorta like a QEC cell phone and was broadcasting her messages during the initial invasion. 

During that sequence, she discovers that the Reapers were led to the airport (where everyone was trying to escape) by her signal. Subsequently everyone there died because of her QEC tweets. 

So it's not unmonitorable or unhackable, just able to do without the com bouy system. 

[Leafs43]

drewelow wrote...

Anastassia wrote...
All of the galaxy's brightest minds in one place, and you seriously think they can't figure out how to improve on technology they already have? I reject your rejection.

Exactly.  Look at all of the issues here on Earth that have been fixed in just a few thousand years:
Cancer, SIDS, blindness, Ebola, starvation, the common cold.

Clearly all it takes to macgyver together a better FTL drive is a few bright people.  And they just have to do it before their resources give out and societies collapse.  It's not like there was a war going on or anything.

All it takes is a little... space magic!  There's enough going around that a little more won't hurt, anyway.

Humans are going to McGuyver up an FTL drive that the reapers, who had the technological know how to build mass relays, couldn't do in a million years?


You know how dumb that argument sounds?

[humes spork]

djspectre wrote...

The QEC wasn't totally unmonitorable. Emily Wong (in the Twitter feed they did for her) stated she had some miniaturized version of it that she was able to use sorta like a QEC cell phone and was broadcasting her messages during the initial invasion. 

During that sequence, she discovers that the Reapers were led to the airport (where everyone was trying to escape) by her signal. Subsequently everyone there died because of her QEC tweets. 

So it's not unmonitorable or unhackable, just able to do without the com bouy system. 

That didn't sound quite right, so I actually got curious and looked it up.

It was mentioned the rebroadcast of her QEC was what tipped the Reapers off, since she mentioned her location in earlier tweets. So, the security of QEC isn't rendered suspect by that alone.

https://twitter.com/...860954766753792 

And still -- not getting distracted here -- that doesn't change the fact that's something the salarians had 2,700 years to figure out, and was something they would have killed to have, yet didn't. Humans did it within 40 years of discovering the prothean cache. That really raises the question of why and how that happened.

Modifié par humes spork, 10 avril 2012 - 12:31 .

[mumwaldee369]

Just wait for the new Wormhole trilogy. Where is John Crichton when you need him?

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par mumwaldee369, 10 avril 2012 - 12:39 .

[Acidrain92]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Acidrain92 wrote...

Jesus. The way you guys talk about Mass Relays its as if you want them as an LI option >.>

You know... I never realized how much I wanted the underlined.

Forget the lore guys. I just want to make it with a relay.

Mass Relays are a bunch of swingers though. Handing you off to another one as soon as you enter them. Pfft. I'd rather make it with a Prothean Beacon.

[mumwaldee369]

Acidrain92 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Acidrain92 wrote...

Jesus. The way you guys talk about Mass Relays its as if you want them as an LI option >.>

You know... I never realized how much I wanted the underlined.

Forget the lore guys. I just want to make it with a relay.

Mass Relays are a bunch of swingers though. Handing you off to another one as soon as you enter them. Pfft. I'd rather make it with a Prothean Beacon.

I made it with a beacon once...you wouldn't believe the hell I went through afterwards.

[Acidrain92]

mumwaldee369 wrote...

Acidrain92 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Acidrain92 wrote...

Jesus. The way you guys talk about Mass Relays its as if you want them as an LI option >.>

You know... I never realized how much I wanted the underlined.

Forget the lore guys. I just want to make it with a relay.

Mass Relays are a bunch of swingers though. Handing you off to another one as soon as you enter them. Pfft. I'd rather make it with a Prothean Beacon.

I made it with a beacon once...you wouldn't believe the hell I went through afterwards.

making it with a prothean beacon...heavy risk..but the priiiiiiiize

[Agent_Dark_]

Apathy1989 wrote...

The amount of spacial drift that happens when using the mass relays suggests (to me) that the exit relay isn't needed. Its just there for getting back.

If that is the case, then why are the Relays considered Strategic Bottlenecks?  If you could simply use a Mass Relay to shoot yourself off anywhere in space, then an invading fleet could just shoot themselves on the opposite side of the system to where the Defending Fleet was guarding the Relay.  That's not the case though, since Defensive Fleets are deployed to guard Mass Relays - The Alliance Fifth Fleet is pretty much solely dedicated to guarding the nexus of relays at Arcturus Station.

[Agent_Dark_]

Leafs43 wrote...

Nobody knows what object rho is, yet you are filling it in with your own self presrcibed details to fit your argument, i.e. retconning.

Dude, that's not a retcon...  If it was specifically mentioned in Arrival that Object Rho was not capable of causing a Relay to go Nova, and BioWare went back and then said the reason the Alpha Relay went nova was because of Object Rho and not just the Asteroid, then that would be a retcon.

There was no mention in Arrival of Object Rho being able to cause a relay to go nova.  It was only mentioned that the Asteroid hitting the Relay would cause that effect.  Therefore if BioWare were to reveal that it was because of Object Rho, then there is no retroactive change to canon (ie a retcon) because it was never canon in the first place.

Modifié par Agent_Dark_, 10 avril 2012 - 12:54 .

[omphaloskepsis]

Leafs43 wrote...

drewelow wrote...

Anastassia wrote...
All of the galaxy's brightest minds in one place, and you seriously think they can't figure out how to improve on technology they already have? I reject your rejection.

Exactly.  Look at all of the issues here on Earth that have been fixed in just a few thousand years:
Cancer, SIDS, blindness, Ebola, starvation, the common cold.

Clearly all it takes to macgyver together a better FTL drive is a few bright people.  And they just have to do it before their resources give out and societies collapse.  It's not like there was a war going on or anything.

All it takes is a little... space magic!  There's enough going around that a little more won't hurt, anyway.

Humans are going to McGuyver up an FTL drive that the reapers, who had the technological know how to build mass relays, couldn't do in a million years?

You know how dumb that argument sounds?

I was being a smartass to make exactly your point.  I was just afraid that I was coming off too harsh, but apparently that's not a problem. 

[MyChemicalBromance]

Check my sig, non-relay travel has been possible since Mass Effect 1. I did the actual math.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Agent_Dark_ wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

The amount of spacial drift that happens when using the mass relays suggests (to me) that the exit relay isn't needed. Its just there for getting back.

If that is the case, then why are the Relays considered Strategic Bottlenecks?  If you could simply use a Mass Relay to shoot yourself off anywhere in space, then an invading fleet could just shoot themselves on the opposite side of the system to where the Defending Fleet was guarding the Relay.  That's not the case though, since Defensive Fleets are deployed to guard Mass Relays - The Alliance Fifth Fleet is pretty much solely dedicated to guarding the nexus of relays at Arcturus Station.

Because that is where the Relays dump out.

Question: Did the Omega Relay have a counterpart?

[Exeider]

djspectre wrote...

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Serious discussion I'm afraid.

@ Spectre, as has already been mentioned, the Protheans and the Asaari seem capable of creating their own relays and it is possible to communicate across interstellar distances so they could pass the know how on.

Not possible, the com bouy system was destroyed in every civilized system the reapers entered. The only thing that worked was the Quantum Entanglement Communicator which was point to point (had to build special devices at each end, again, like the Relays). One was on the Citadel for the council (destroyed with the Council), another was on the Normandy (also destroyed) and the rest were on earth, which now point to nothing. 

Trans-galactic communication is effectively dead. 

actually the QEC pairs are HQed in Arcturus Station in the Arcturus cluster, the station itself has been vaporized, you can visit the debris in game.

-AE

[mumwaldee369]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Check my sig, non-relay travel has been possible since Mass Effect 1. I did the actual math.

In RL the nebula that Ilium would be in is 5000 light years away.  That would require a lot of fuel and resources that may not be available in the middle of nowhere space.

[TheLostGenius]

SO you think the universe should be "using" instruments that the Reaper's used for galatic genocide? Reaper tech? You are sounded like you are indoctrinated.

[jamesgilmer]

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

Even with a better FTL travel mechanic, they still have to go around dangerous territories to gather more supplies.

As for the argument that the can create new mass relays. I doubt that they will be able to create mass relays all around the Galaxy at the same time and line every thing up perfectly to avoid having to travel without them.

The QEC system is still working, which means the information and plans for either rebuilding the relays or a FTL system can be shared instantly. 

If the quarians build a relay around Rannoch and the stranded fleet builds on at Pluto again they could rather quickly have a system to cross the longest distance right there.

It's been canon since the first game that the FTL drives are just that...faster than light, it's just how much over lightspeed they are able to travel. The Reapers can travel even faster than the Alliance FTL systems.

If they start using Reaper drives things really start opening up again.