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[Exeider]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Agent_Dark_ wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

The amount of spacial drift that happens when using the mass relays suggests (to me) that the exit relay isn't needed. Its just there for getting back.

If that is the case, then why are the Relays considered Strategic Bottlenecks?  If you could simply use a Mass Relay to shoot yourself off anywhere in space, then an invading fleet could just shoot themselves on the opposite side of the system to where the Defending Fleet was guarding the Relay.  That's not the case though, since Defensive Fleets are deployed to guard Mass Relays - The Alliance Fifth Fleet is pretty much solely dedicated to guarding the nexus of relays at Arcturus Station.

Because that is where the Relays dump out.

Question: Did the Omega Relay have a counterpart?

Yes, all mass relays work in pairs, Primaries connect to a twin and no where else, these Primary relays are the ones that can rocket you from galactic arm to galactic arm.  Secondary Relays have a shorter range but are omni-directional, meaning they can send you to any other secondary relay within their range.

What the game never showed was these secondary relays, or multiple primary relays in the same star cluster. What I mean is that to get to the Citadel from Earth, you would have to go from Primary Relay to Primary relay, then fly using normal FTL, or using a secondary relay to secondary relay to the Primary relay that leads to the Tuchanka DMZ I think, then fly to the relay that connects to Citadel space.

Your average trip anywhere is a combination of using Primary Relays, Secondary Relays, and FTL to reach your final destination.

Just describing it means this network was vast, and complex and how the hell is anybody going to replace it, it's just staggering at the suggestion.

-AE

[MyChemicalBromance]

mumwaldee369 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Check my sig, non-relay travel has been possible since Mass Effect 1. I did the actual math.

In RL the nebula that Ilium would be in is 5000 light years away.  That would require a lot of fuel and resources that may not be available in the middle of nowhere space.

I suggest you read the thread. Fuel is almost a laughable concern.

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Actually, a conversation you have with Legion in Mass Effect 2 contradicts the premise of the OP. "Technology is not a straight line, there are many paths to the same end" Legion says. The technology of the Mass Relays is just one path, and by putting it out in front of organics, it has kept organics from seeing the need to find another path.

The reapers are millions of years old and harvested races more advanced than the current races.

There is no way the reapers have found at travel better than the mass relays.

What does that have to do with anything?  The "end" Legion is talking about is travel between systems across the galaxy.  There are multiple paths to that end.  The Reapers simply chose one, and left it for organics to also choose so they would not search others.  That's right there in the game, all three games really.

They chose the best one and the next best alternative took months where mass relays took hours.


I don't think you're grasping this.

Again, according to Legion in Mass Effect 2, technology is not a straight line.  There are many paths to the same end.  The Reapers followed one path, and they laid it out for organics to follow, so that other organics would not take a different path.  He uses this to explain why Soveriegn said that the Mass Relays developed organics along the path it desired.  It's right there in the game, how did this discussion make it past page one?

[Militarized]

I think they mixed up their own lore, ignoring the magnetic charge build up that will kill you if you fly to long as well, and are just saying this because they didn't think it through. I could see them taking the Reaper core/adapting the Reaper FTL but that's not possible in Control/Synthesis... they just fly away. 

It's an example of their fans thinking harder about something then they did and coming up with something to fix it or smooth things over. Lore wise it shouldn't be possible... but they write the lore, so I suppose they're going to change the Relays importance.

Modifié par Militarized, 10 avril 2012 - 01:35 .

[Geneaux486]

Militarized wrote...

I think they mixed up their own lore, ignoring the magnetic charge build up that will kill you if you fly to long as well, and are just saying this because they didn't think it through. I could see them taking the Reaper core/adapting the Reaper FTL but that's not possible in Control/Synthesis... they just fly away. 

It's an example of their fans thinking harder about something then they did and coming up with something to fix it or smooth things over. Lore wise it shouldn't be possible... but they write the lore, so I suppose they're going to change the Relays importance.

In control and synthesis the Reapers can simply rebuild the Mass Relays.

[Cordoroy17]

apparently its cheaper to fly across the horsehead nebula than it is to get a toothbrush....

so if they harness the toothbrush technology they can get anywhere !

[clos]

I reject it as well. It just seems they are destroying the game's canon and coming up with more 'space magic' to explain the plot holes away.

[MyChemicalBromance]

The only actual lore error may not be an error at all.

All that people are holding onto is the statement that Relays shorten travel that may take decades to centuries.

There is another codex entry that gives 200 times the speed of light as an example speed (not given as an example of current tech). This would roughly translate to half a light year in a day. It is possible that older drive designs could only go this fast. At this speed, it would take decades to centuries for most travel.

In ME1 Ashley says 12 light years can be crossed in a day. The codex entry for Reapers in ME3 backs this up, saying that Reapers can move twice as fast, at 30 light years per day. The codex says 30[ly]. At 12[ly/day], the distances never reach centuries (the galaxy would only be 23 years).

This is better than Indoc theory. Bioware has been tricking you since ME1. The Reapers want you to believe the Relays are the only way so that you don't look for other means. Now, humanity is free from the Relays and the Reapers, and will expand by it's own means.

[omphaloskepsis]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
Check my sig, non-relay travel has been possible since Mass Effect 1. I did the actual math.

I like your thread, and think your basic logic is sound, but we're not talking about a galactic economy or infrastructure that has developed to handle long-term travel.  

All of the civilizations are decimated, and most fleets are in the Sol system.  These are not trivial issues that can be fixed with a cinematic and some hand-waving.  The only realistic result is starvation, mutiny, piracy, and (skirmishing) warfare on a galactic scale.

I think interstellar trade and infrastructure could possibly develop and work effectively in a relay-free ME universe, but that situation is decades away.  How many evacuees got emergency relocation to systems that aren't viable long-term, or that flat-out required on mass relays for survival?  I can think of dozens of other questions like this.

Consider the following: the massive damage of the war, the frantic relocations of capital worlds and major star systems entirely, the lack of suitability for every fleet--except the geth and quarians--for long-term travel, etc..  It looks to me like the most likely result is a galactic dark age and astronomical casualties, unless there's some horrible space magic explanation.

Could everyone eventually rebuild and get a galaxy-wide civilization running?  Probably, but only after decades or even centuries of post-war horror.

[Fawx9]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The only actual lore error may not be an error at all.

All that people are holding onto is the statement that Relays shorten travel that may take decades to centuries.

There is another codex entry that gives 200 times the speed of light as an example speed (not given as an example of current tech). This would roughly translate to half a light year in a day. It is possible that older drive designs could only go this fast. At this speed, it would take decades to centuries for most travel.

In ME1 Ashley says 12 light years can be crossed in a day. The codex entry for Reapers in ME3 backs this up, saying that Reapers can move twice as fast, at 30 light years per day. The codex says 30[ly]. At 12[ly/day], the distances never reach centuries (the galaxy would only be 23 years).

This is better than Indoc theory. Bioware has been tricking you since ME1. The Reapers want you to believe the Relays are the only way so that you don't look for other means. Now, humanity is free from the Relays and the Reapers, and will expand by it's own means.

Eezo is reaper tech...

[Geneaux486]

clos wrote...

I reject it as well. It just seems they are destroying the game's canon and coming up with more 'space magic' to explain the plot holes away.

The possibility of undiscovered means of fast space travel has been present as early as the first game...

[TransientNomad]

Regardless of whether or not travel between systems is feasible or not, I always found that the Mass Relays were a staple of the series and the universe that is Mass Effect. I hold them to be just as important to Mass Effect as light sabers are to Star Wars. When they were destroyed, one of the most iconic staples of Mass Effect was destroyed with them.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Fawx9 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The only actual lore error may not be an error at all.

All that people are holding onto is the statement that Relays shorten travel that may take decades to centuries.

There is another codex entry that gives 200 times the speed of light as an example speed (not given as an example of current tech). This would roughly translate to half a light year in a day. It is possible that older drive designs could only go this fast. At this speed, it would take decades to centuries for most travel.

In ME1 Ashley says 12 light years can be crossed in a day. The codex entry for Reapers in ME3 backs this up, saying that Reapers can move twice as fast, at 30 light years per day. The codex says 30[ly]. At 12[ly/day], the distances never reach centuries (the galaxy would only be 23 years).

This is better than Indoc theory. Bioware has been tricking you since ME1. The Reapers want you to believe the Relays are the only way so that you don't look for other means. Now, humanity is free from the Relays and the Reapers, and will expand by it's own means.

Eezo is reaper tech...

Mass Effect Drives are not Reaper Tech. Mass Relays are Reaper Tech. No they are not the same thing.

The science of Mass Effect Drives is understood and can be replicated.

Mass Relay Tech is not understood. The Mass Free corridor takes care of collisions, but it does not explain how the ship can move across the galaxy in an instant. The Mass Relays were never explained and cannot be explained by Mass Effect technology.

Read the "Mass Relays must be destroyed" thread.

[Shaoken]

Based off Weekes comments and some thinking on my part, 12 light years a day is the cruising speed of spaceships, meaning it's possible to go faster but it's not as efficient long term (ie you have to repair the ship more often, it uses more fuel, that sort of thing). The mai nreason FTL research never got that much better is because it was redundant with the Relays. If the relays are gone, FTL travel will probably see a lot more leaps and boundsover the next few decades.

[humes spork]

Geneaux486 wrote...

In control and synthesis the Reapers can simply rebuild the Mass Relays.

But to what end? It's demonstrated time and again in the context of the series the relays lead to stagnation and an overall lack of development. The Citadel races are socioculturally and technologically stagnant. The only time there are significant cultural, technological or social developments are during upheavals, generally when a new race is brought into the fold.

It happens time and again: the salarians and the asari meet the rachni and can't defeat them, and need the krogan to do it. The krogan rebel; the salarians and the asari can't defeat them and need the turians to do it. Humanity shows up; the turians can't defeat them immediately and the salarians and the asari intervene before yet another full-scale war develops. The geth turn heretic; the salarians, asari and turians can't defeat them, and need the humans to do it. The Collectors start harvesting colonies; the Council won't help and the humans can't defeat them, and need Shepard and Cerberus to do it.

Between those periods of upheaval, what happens? Nothing noteworthy. The galaxy returns to the status quo and remains complacent until the next period of upheaval.

Again, like I said, 2,700 years of development and QEC's and IES eludes the salarians, the most technologically- and scientifically-minded species in the galaxy. Add to that, 1,400 years of development and the turians, the most militaristic and strategically-minded species in the galaxy, never figured out the carrier prior to the first contact war.

The mass relays are bad news. They were when they were a Reaper trap, and they could very well be again if rebuilt especially without the Citadel races having not learned to do it themselves first.

[xsamplexample]

Leafs43 wrote...

Destroying the mass relays doesn't magically open another door.

The reapers are considered  close to perfection and far more advanced than any current species and they still use the mass relay network for the main way of travel.  They use the citadel as a giant mass relay in ME1.  They use the alpha relay in ME2 arrival's dlc.  So it is canon that the reapers use the mass relay system.


So by saying the mass relays are optional, you admit that the citadel races, which are considerably less advanced than the reapers, can somehow think up of a better idea for travel.  That idea is complete horse pockey and deserves to be rejected as a logical conclusion..

Its symbolic of isolation.  consider what TIM said in his speech in the citadel.  The mass relays are considered to be dangerous, because they are.  Besides meeting a dangerous specie (like human/turian or rachni), if a civilization can access them, our already part of the reaper trap.  

[MyChemicalBromance]

humes spork wrote...
The mass relays are bad news. They were when they were a Reaper trap, and they could very well be again if rebuilt especially without the Citadel races having not learned to do it themselves first.

It's good to see some people haven't forgot Sovereign and Legion.

[Fawx9]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The only actual lore error may not be an error at all.

All that people are holding onto is the statement that Relays shorten travel that may take decades to centuries.

There is another codex entry that gives 200 times the speed of light as an example speed (not given as an example of current tech). This would roughly translate to half a light year in a day. It is possible that older drive designs could only go this fast. At this speed, it would take decades to centuries for most travel.

In ME1 Ashley says 12 light years can be crossed in a day. The codex entry for Reapers in ME3 backs this up, saying that Reapers can move twice as fast, at 30 light years per day. The codex says 30[ly]. At 12[ly/day], the distances never reach centuries (the galaxy would only be 23 years).

This is better than Indoc theory. Bioware has been tricking you since ME1. The Reapers want you to believe the Relays are the only way so that you don't look for other means. Now, humanity is free from the Relays and the Reapers, and will expand by it's own means.

Eezo is reaper tech...

Mass Effect Drives are not Reaper Tech. Mass Relays are Reaper Tech. No they are not the same thing.

The science of Mass Effect Drives is understood and can be replicated.

Mass Relay Tech is not understood. The Mass Free corridor takes care of collisions, but it does not explain how the ship can move across the galaxy in an instant. The Mass Relays were never explained and cannot be explained by Mass Effect technology.

Read the "Mass Relays must be destroyed" thread.

The only difference between them is that one we understand and the other we don't.

Both we're built, used and perfected by the Repers, or are you going to tell me that they weren't the first ones to think of putting FTL together, but somehow made the jump to the relay's?

[Lyrandori]

Leafs43 wrote...

Destroying the mass relays doesn't magically open another door.

The reapers are considered  close to perfection and far more advanced than any current species and they still use the mass relay network for the main way of travel.  They use the citadel as a giant mass relay in ME1.  They use the alpha relay in ME2 arrival's dlc.  So it is canon that the reapers use the mass relay system.


So by saying the mass relays are optional, you admit that the citadel races, which are considerably less advanced than the reapers, can somehow think up of a better idea for travel.  That idea is complete horse pockey and deserves to be rejected as a logical conclusion..

Just to clarify that up (in bold), they never used the Alpha Relay, we destroyed it before they could use it.

[Leafs43]

Going from New York to Chicago instead of taking 13 hours takes 20 years.

How long do you think the US would survive that dramatic of a shift of that magnitude?

Modifié par Leafs43, 10 avril 2012 - 02:01 .

[MyChemicalBromance]

Fawx9 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The only actual lore error may not be an error at all.

All that people are holding onto is the statement that Relays shorten travel that may take decades to centuries.

There is another codex entry that gives 200 times the speed of light as an example speed (not given as an example of current tech). This would roughly translate to half a light year in a day. It is possible that older drive designs could only go this fast. At this speed, it would take decades to centuries for most travel.

In ME1 Ashley says 12 light years can be crossed in a day. The codex entry for Reapers in ME3 backs this up, saying that Reapers can move twice as fast, at 30 light years per day. The codex says 30[ly]. At 12[ly/day], the distances never reach centuries (the galaxy would only be 23 years).

This is better than Indoc theory. Bioware has been tricking you since ME1. The Reapers want you to believe the Relays are the only way so that you don't look for other means. Now, humanity is free from the Relays and the Reapers, and will expand by it's own means.

Eezo is reaper tech...

Mass Effect Drives are not Reaper Tech. Mass Relays are Reaper Tech. No they are not the same thing.

The science of Mass Effect Drives is understood and can be replicated.

Mass Relay Tech is not understood. The Mass Free corridor takes care of collisions, but it does not explain how the ship can move across the galaxy in an instant. The Mass Relays were never explained and cannot be explained by Mass Effect technology.

Read the "Mass Relays must be destroyed" thread.

The only difference between them is that one we understand and the other we don't.

Both we're built, used and perfected by the Repers, or are you going to tell me that they weren't the first ones to think of putting FTL together, but somehow made the jump to the relay's?

The difference between understanding a technology and not understanding the technology is the difference between having earned a technology and having not earned it.

It is the difference between self-determination and accepting another's path.

[Adanu]

You can have mass relay-less FTL travel in a very simple manner.

Think about it. We are improving Mass Effect FTL drives all the time, with the Normandy being a prototype for a better design. Absolutely nothing says we can't improve the tech until rebuilding the network isn't needed anymore.

[Warrior Craess]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Mass Relays are convenient in that they can get you from point A to point B from system to system without you having to use your fuel for it. The Reapers kept them around because they were ideal not only for transportation but also for setting their traps. Organics have not developed other ways yet not because they can't, but because they've not tried. The relays to most are simply a useful travel network passed down from a previous race, no reason to fix what doesn't look broken.  So no, rejecting the idea that there are other ways to travel through the galaxy is not the logical route to take.

So your saying that there is somehow a better option for intragalactic travel than instanteous? And a race thats been around for (up to a billion + ) years never figured it out? 


Seriously?  

[xsamplexample]

humes spork wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

In control and synthesis the Reapers can simply rebuild the Mass Relays.

But to what end? It's demonstrated time and again in the context of the series the relays lead to stagnation and an overall lack of development. The Citadel races are socioculturally and technologically stagnant. The only time there are significant cultural, technological or social developments are during upheavals, generally when a new race is brought into the fold.

It happens time and again: the salarians and the asari meet the rachni and can't defeat them, and need the krogan to do it. The krogan rebel; the salarians and the asari can't defeat them and need the turians to do it. Humanity shows up; the turians can't defeat them immediately and the salarians and the asari intervene before yet another full-scale war develops. The geth turn heretic; the salarians, asari and turians can't defeat them, and need the humans to do it. The Collectors start harvesting colonies; the Council won't help and the humans can't defeat them, and need Shepard and Cerberus to do it.

Between those periods of upheaval, what happens? Nothing noteworthy. The galaxy returns to the status quo and remains complacent until the next period of upheaval.

Again, like I said, 2,700 years of development and QEC's and IES eludes the salarians, the most technologically- and scientifically-minded species in the galaxy. Add to that, 1,400 years of development and the turians, the most militaristic and strategically-minded species in the galaxy, never figured out the carrier prior to the first contact war.

The mass relays are bad news. They were when they were a Reaper trap, and they could very well be again if rebuilt especially without the Citadel races having not learned to do it themselves first.

nicely pit.  Organics cant handle the mass relays.  Obviously if a specie gets to a certain point, the Reapers consider them to be dangerous or potentially harmful to other organics (which may broadly include ALL ORGANIC LIFE like animals, trees, banannas, etc).  Conflict always arises with advanced civilizations and they create synthetics (again, broad, could include nuclear bombs, chemical weapons) which will lead to their demise.  The relays defined Mass Effect, and their destruction upset people.  This only implies isolation, not death.  Your choices live on!

[xsamplexample]

*nicely put