440 réponses à ce sujet

[Joush]

It would take decades, at very best, to replace the Mass Relays. Without the Mass Relay systems, the Quarians can look forward to 20 years of travel to get home from earth.

[Warrior Craess]

Adanu wrote...

You can have mass relay-less FTL travel in a very simple manner.

Think about it. We are improving Mass Effect FTL drives all the time, with the Normandy being a prototype for a better design. Absolutely nothing says we can't improve the tech until rebuilding the network isn't needed anymore.

Except that the reapers reach a 30LY per day limit, and they don't need to stop and discharge static build up.  So great a trip that takes us 25 years will take them 10.  Given 10 years to prepare with the tech avail to ME civilizations and the reaper invasion fleet is freaking toast. 

Sorry but improvements to ME drive cores are never going to equal a mass relay.  Or come anywhere near the speeds needed to make intragalactic travel feasible. 

[Fawx9]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The only actual lore error may not be an error at all.

All that people are holding onto is the statement that Relays shorten travel that may take decades to centuries.

There is another codex entry that gives 200 times the speed of light as an example speed (not given as an example of current tech). This would roughly translate to half a light year in a day. It is possible that older drive designs could only go this fast. At this speed, it would take decades to centuries for most travel.

In ME1 Ashley says 12 light years can be crossed in a day. The codex entry for Reapers in ME3 backs this up, saying that Reapers can move twice as fast, at 30 light years per day. The codex says 30[ly]. At 12[ly/day], the distances never reach centuries (the galaxy would only be 23 years).

This is better than Indoc theory. Bioware has been tricking you since ME1. The Reapers want you to believe the Relays are the only way so that you don't look for other means. Now, humanity is free from the Relays and the Reapers, and will expand by it's own means.

Eezo is reaper tech...

Mass Effect Drives are not Reaper Tech. Mass Relays are Reaper Tech. No they are not the same thing.

The science of Mass Effect Drives is understood and can be replicated.

Mass Relay Tech is not understood. The Mass Free corridor takes care of collisions, but it does not explain how the ship can move across the galaxy in an instant. The Mass Relays were never explained and cannot be explained by Mass Effect technology.

Read the "Mass Relays must be destroyed" thread.

The only difference between them is that one we understand and the other we don't.

Both we're built, used and perfected by the Repers, or are you going to tell me that they weren't the first ones to think of putting FTL together, but somehow made the jump to the relay's?

The difference between understanding a technology and not understanding the technology is the difference between having earned a technology and having not earned it.

It is the difference between self-determination and accepting another's path.

So because we don't fully understand it we don't have the right to use it and therefore shoudln't?

That's about as dumb as sayign that since Country A invaded and beat Country B that it should wipe out any advanced infastructure that Country A didn't understand instead of learning from it and adapting it to their own culture.

AKA Native's tearing up railroads after the British Empire abandoned them. They didn't know what the hell they were built from, but they understtod their importance for trade and learned to utilize them on their own.

[Geneaux486]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Mass Relays are convenient in that they can get you from point A to point B from system to system without you having to use your fuel for it. The Reapers kept them around because they were ideal not only for transportation but also for setting their traps. Organics have not developed other ways yet not because they can't, but because they've not tried. The relays to most are simply a useful travel network passed down from a previous race, no reason to fix what doesn't look broken.  So no, rejecting the idea that there are other ways to travel through the galaxy is not the logical route to take.

So your saying that there is somehow a better option for intragalactic travel than instanteous? And a race thats been around for (up to a billion + ) years never figured it out? 


Seriously?  

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that there are potential alternative ways to achieve fast intragalactic travel.  It doesn't have to be *better* than Mass Relay technology to be effective.  Hence why the Reapers put the relays there to begin with, so organics don't stray far from the desired technological path that makes wiping them out all the easier.  Look, I'm not making this stuff up, it's stated to us through all three games.

[Warrior Craess]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

mumwaldee369 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Check my sig, non-relay travel has been possible since Mass Effect 1. I did the actual math.

In RL the nebula that Ilium would be in is 5000 light years away.  That would require a lot of fuel and resources that may not be available in the middle of nowhere space.

I suggest you read the thread. Fuel is almost a laughable concern.

yes once you've reached your cruising speed, fuel concerns become nil... until you gotta stop, discharge static build up  etc etc..

We've had this conversation - and while I'll admit that it may be technically possible to cross the galaxy in FTL (though I would love to see the navigation plot for it), you'll have to admit that it's not realistically feasible. 

[Fawx9]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Mass Relays are convenient in that they can get you from point A to point B from system to system without you having to use your fuel for it. The Reapers kept them around because they were ideal not only for transportation but also for setting their traps. Organics have not developed other ways yet not because they can't, but because they've not tried. The relays to most are simply a useful travel network passed down from a previous race, no reason to fix what doesn't look broken.  So no, rejecting the idea that there are other ways to travel through the galaxy is not the logical route to take.

So your saying that there is somehow a better option for intragalactic travel than instanteous? And a race thats been around for (up to a billion + ) years never figured it out? 


Seriously?  

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that there are potential alternative ways to achieve fast intragalactic travel.  It doesn't have to be *better* than Mass Relay technology to be effective.  Hence why the Reapers put the relays there to begin with, so organics don't stray far from the desired technological path that makes wiping them out all the easier.  Look, I'm not making this stuff up, it's stated to us through all three games.

Again a race that billions of years old, did no better than double our current speed.

There's nothing left to gain out of standard FTL. It would need to be an entirely new tech that even the most advanced race couldn't find for billions of years. Or are you telling me they just decided to stagnate themselves and forever leave their backup plan as "ehhh **** it we'll fly there for a few years from darkspace if the relay deosn't work"

[MyChemicalBromance]

Fawx9 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The only actual lore error may not be an error at all.

All that people are holding onto is the statement that Relays shorten travel that may take decades to centuries.

There is another codex entry that gives 200 times the speed of light as an example speed (not given as an example of current tech). This would roughly translate to half a light year in a day. It is possible that older drive designs could only go this fast. At this speed, it would take decades to centuries for most travel.

In ME1 Ashley says 12 light years can be crossed in a day. The codex entry for Reapers in ME3 backs this up, saying that Reapers can move twice as fast, at 30 light years per day. The codex says 30[ly]. At 12[ly/day], the distances never reach centuries (the galaxy would only be 23 years).

This is better than Indoc theory. Bioware has been tricking you since ME1. The Reapers want you to believe the Relays are the only way so that you don't look for other means. Now, humanity is free from the Relays and the Reapers, and will expand by it's own means.

Eezo is reaper tech...

Mass Effect Drives are not Reaper Tech. Mass Relays are Reaper Tech. No they are not the same thing.

The science of Mass Effect Drives is understood and can be replicated.

Mass Relay Tech is not understood. The Mass Free corridor takes care of collisions, but it does not explain how the ship can move across the galaxy in an instant. The Mass Relays were never explained and cannot be explained by Mass Effect technology.

Read the "Mass Relays must be destroyed" thread.

The only difference between them is that one we understand and the other we don't.

Both we're built, used and perfected by the Repers, or are you going to tell me that they weren't the first ones to think of putting FTL together, but somehow made the jump to the relay's?

The difference between understanding a technology and not understanding the technology is the difference between having earned a technology and having not earned it.

It is the difference between self-determination and accepting another's path.

So because we don't fully understand it we don't have the right to use it and therefore shoudln't?

That's about as dumb as sayign that since Country A invaded and beat Country B that it should wipe out any advanced infastructure that Country A didn't understand instead of learning from it and adapting it to their own culture.

AKA Native's tearing up railroads after the British Empire abandoned them. They didn't know what the hell they were built from, but they understtod their importance for trade and learned to utilize them on their own.

There's a different between rebuilding tech, and just using it.  Rebuilding tech shows you have the capacity to use it according to Legion.
It's a primary theme in Mass Effect, and reasoning used by Legion.

[Noatz]

I agree with the OP and frankly find it troubling that people from the creative team are trying to push this idea.

Taking years to get to the various homeworlds destroys the galactic community, and even Reapers with all their naus cannot by themselves cross the galaxy in anything like a reasonable time. This is evidenced by the period between Arrival and ME3's beginning. The Reapers take all that time just to get from where the Alpha relay was to the next closest one, effectively.

The Reapers could not come up with anything better than an FTL drive twice as fast as the Citadel races in all the billions of years they've been hanging around. They relied on a Mass Relay to begin their cycle; if they could have developed drives fast enough to move them across the galaxy in the blink of an eye they would have since they have had basically unlimited time to do so.

[Warrior Craess]

ok so what alternate way are you going to discover?

We already know that a sufficient amount of Ezo can create a gravity well that allows for instantaneous travel. Why would we even consider another possibility, such as Warp Drive (ohh hey we have FTL speeds already !!! so warp drive is out).

If Someone had a burning desire to create a galactic civilization again, in the ME universe - the priority is going to be getting the relays up and running. If for no other reason than that the technology for that path of thinking is already leap and bounds (light years even) ahead of any alternative method.

[SaladinDheonqar]

It will be quite tragic if they go back on what they've already established to try and fix the mess that is the ending. I fear this is indeed what they'll do though, for how can it salvaged any other way?. Perhaps they think we're stupid enough to buy it, or maybe they just don't give a damn. One thing I know for sure: more space magic ain't going to fix a damn thing.

[Palathas]

Aren't ships synthetic? How do they not get destroyed? All the Reapers are just ships anyway. You can't use the argument that all synthetic intelligence is all that gets wiped out because then ships get brought into it again with all the VI systems in ships and also by the fact that Shepard isn't a synthetic intelligence but was told they are gone because they are only part synthetic.

[Geneaux486]

Fawx9 wrote...
Again a race that billions of years old, did no better than double our current speed.

There's nothing left to gain out of standard FTL. It would need to be an entirely new tech that even the most advanced race couldn't find for billions of years. Or are you telling me they just decided to stagnate themselves and forever leave their backup plan as "ehhh **** it we'll fly there for a few years from darkspace if the relay deosn't work"

The race that's billions of years old made travel from system to system instantaneous.  The Reapers did not stagnate themselves.  They put the network in place as part of their trap, so organics would not search for alternative means of fast intragalactic travel, and put no further work into their travel because they didn't need to.  The Reapers never had a problem with the Citadel relay until the second most recent cycle.

Again, technology is not a straight line.  The Mass Relays were one path, and the reason the Reapers left them there for organics was so that organics would not search for another.  Alternative means of speedy intragalactic travel would not take billions of years to find.  It didn't even take the Protheans more than a couple of decades to figure out the Mass Relays well enough to build their own.

[Exeider]

mumwaldee369 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Check my sig, non-relay travel has been possible since Mass Effect 1. I did the actual math.

In RL the nebula that Ilium would be in is 5000 light years away.  That would require a lot of fuel and resources that may not be available in the middle of nowhere space.

in reality the crescent nebula is 5000 LY away, but on the ME Galactic map its positioned farther up the Outer Arm which puts it alot further away, more like one order of magnitude farther away. like 50K LY

-AE

[MyChemicalBromance]

SaladinDheonqar wrote...

It will be quite tragic if they go back on what they've already established to try and fix the mess that is the ending. I fear this is indeed what they'll do though, for how can it salvaged any other way?. Perhaps they think we're stupid enough to buy it, or maybe they just don't give a damn. One thing I know for sure: more space magic ain't going to fix a damn thing.

They aren't going back on anything. DO THE DAMN MATH.

Sorry, I'm losing patience.

[Exeider]

Warrior Craess wrote...

ok so what alternate way are you going to discover?

We already know that a sufficient amount of Ezo can create a gravity well that allows for instantaneous travel. Why would we even consider another possibility, such as Warp Drive (ohh hey we have FTL speeds already !!! so warp drive is out).

If Someone had a burning desire to create a galactic civilization again, in the ME universe - the priority is going to be getting the relays up and running. If for no other reason than that the technology for that path of thinking is already leap and bounds (light years even) ahead of any alternative method.

warp drive? that's what the Eezo core already does,  FTL in Mass Effect is Warp Drive, the principle is the same, it's changing the properties of a volume of space to allow FTL travel.

-AE

[Lavits75]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Mass Relays are convenient in that they can get you from point A to point B from system to system without you having to use your fuel for it. The Reapers kept them around because they were ideal not only for transportation but also for setting their traps. Organics have not developed other ways yet not because they can't, but because they've not tried. The relays to most are simply a useful travel network passed down from a previous race, no reason to fix what doesn't look broken.  So no, rejecting the idea that there are other ways to travel through the galaxy is not the logical route to take.

The game actually makes it clear that races have been investigating the relays. It even states at one point that the Asari (I think) are close to uncovering the secrets of the relays. The PROBLEM, the ever so large ILLOGICAL PROBLEM, is that there needs to be at least two relays one at A and one at B and they HAVE to connect each other. That's basic lore that's been there since ME1

[Dean_the_Young]

Leafs43 wrote...

Destroying the mass relays doesn't magically open another door.

The reapers are considered  close to perfection and far more advanced than any current species and they still use the mass relay network for the main way of travel.  They use the citadel as a giant mass relay in ME1.  They use the alpha relay in ME2 arrival's dlc.  So it is canon that the reapers use the mass relay system.


So by saying the mass relays are optional, you admit that the citadel races, which are considerably less advanced than the reapers, can somehow think up of a better idea for travel.  That idea is complete horse pockey and deserves to be rejected as a logical conclusion..

You confuse a dominant technology for an exclusive technology.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Exeider wrote...

mumwaldee369 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Check my sig, non-relay travel has been possible since Mass Effect 1. I did the actual math.

In RL the nebula that Ilium would be in is 5000 light years away.  That would require a lot of fuel and resources that may not be available in the middle of nowhere space.

in reality the crescent nebula is 5000 LY away, but on the ME Galactic map its positioned farther up the Outer Arm which puts it alot further away, more like one order of magnitude farther away. like 50K LY

-AE

The entire galaxy is roughly 100K LY. I find the 50K LY to be a poor estimate. Even if it were accurate, that's only 10 years.

[Geneaux486]

Lavits75 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Mass Relays are convenient in that they can get you from point A to point B from system to system without you having to use your fuel for it. The Reapers kept them around because they were ideal not only for transportation but also for setting their traps. Organics have not developed other ways yet not because they can't, but because they've not tried. The relays to most are simply a useful travel network passed down from a previous race, no reason to fix what doesn't look broken.  So no, rejecting the idea that there are other ways to travel through the galaxy is not the logical route to take.

The game actually makes it clear that races have been investigating the relays. It even states at one point that the Asari (I think) are close to uncovering the secrets of the relays. The PROBLEM, the ever so large ILLOGICAL PROBLEM, is that there needs to be at least two relays one at A and one at B and they HAVE to connect each other. That's basic lore that's been there since ME1

That is how the Mass Relays work, because they're devices that literally relay mass from one point to another.  That does not mean that alternative means of travel would need to follow that same format.

You confuse a dominant technology for an exclusive technology.

Yes, exactly.  This really isn't that abstract a concept.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 02:23 .

[Fawx9]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
Again a race that billions of years old, did no better than double our current speed.

There's nothing left to gain out of standard FTL. It would need to be an entirely new tech that even the most advanced race couldn't find for billions of years. Or are you telling me they just decided to stagnate themselves and forever leave their backup plan as "ehhh **** it we'll fly there for a few years from darkspace if the relay deosn't work"

The race that's billions of years old made travel from system to system instantaneous.  The Reapers did not stagnate themselves.  They put the network in place as part of their trap, so organics would not search for alternative means of fast intragalactic travel, and put no further work into their travel because they didn't need to.  The Reapers never had a problem with the Citadel relay until the second most recent cycle.

Again, technology is not a straight line.  The Mass Relays were one path, and the reason the Reapers left them there for organics was so that organics would not search for another.  Alternative means of speedy intragalactic travel would not take billions of years to find.  It didn't even take the Protheans more than a couple of decades to figure out the Mass Relays well enough to build their own.

Excpet the billion year old race's backup plan is what we currently have.

It would make no sense for the reapers to simply sit on outdated FTL technology for billions of years though.

Their main purpose is to reap, and being faster would help with that. They would instinctively gravitate towards trying to improve themselves in that area. Yet the best they could come up with is the Relay's and FTL at 30 lys. 

For billions of years they could do no better than double our standard FTL(outside of relays), why do you think that the curernt civilization can do better in much(did I mention MUCH?) less time than that?

[Lavits75]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Lavits75 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Mass Relays are convenient in that they can get you from point A to point B from system to system without you having to use your fuel for it. The Reapers kept them around because they were ideal not only for transportation but also for setting their traps. Organics have not developed other ways yet not because they can't, but because they've not tried. The relays to most are simply a useful travel network passed down from a previous race, no reason to fix what doesn't look broken.  So no, rejecting the idea that there are other ways to travel through the galaxy is not the logical route to take.

The game actually makes it clear that races have been investigating the relays. It even states at one point that the Asari (I think) are close to uncovering the secrets of the relays. The PROBLEM, the ever so large ILLOGICAL PROBLEM, is that there needs to be at least two relays one at A and one at B and they HAVE to connect each other. That's basic lore that's been there since ME1

That is how the Mass Relays work, because they're devices that literally relay mass from one point to another.  That does not mean that alternative means of travel would need to follow that same format.

You confuse a dominant technology for an exclusive technology.

Yes, exactly.  This really isn't that abstract a concept.

In the time it took  to find a new way, we'd be screwed. And the game states they were close to UNLOCKING SECRETS of the REAPER RELAYS, not how to make a brand new system on  different principles.

[xsamplexample]

Joush wrote...

It would take decades, at very best, to replace the Mass Relays. Without the Mass Relay systems, the Quarians can look forward to 20 years of travel to get home from earth.

In the control endings, the reapers can help.  eithe rthey can transport or rebuild the slight damage on the relays.

In the synthesis ending, it doesnt matter; everyone is immortal, yet still has free will and organic characteristics.  

In the detsroy ending... yea.. everyones screwed.

[Exeider]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Exeider wrote...

mumwaldee369 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Check my sig, non-relay travel has been possible since Mass Effect 1. I did the actual math.

In RL the nebula that Ilium would be in is 5000 light years away.  That would require a lot of fuel and resources that may not be available in the middle of nowhere space.

in reality the crescent nebula is 5000 LY away, but on the ME Galactic map its positioned farther up the Outer Arm which puts it alot further away, more like one order of magnitude farther away. like 50K LY

-AE

The entire galaxy is roughly 100K LY. I find the 50K LY to be a poor estimate. Even if it were accurate, that's only 10 years.

Not a poor estimate, if you look at the map, the crescent nebula is in the wrong place, its located 90 degrees clockwise from Sol on the galactic plane.

the REAL crescent nebula is only 5k LY away, but I'm talking about using the ME galactic map, its in the wrong place and its WAY farther away then its supposed to be.

your 10 year estimate is based off constant speed, FTL cores can ONLY OPERATE FOR 50 HOURS and must be shutdown and discharged. And since discharge sites are not located in the void between galactic arms, You must travel up one arm out to the arm in question you want to travel to, and then down that arm to your destination.

-AE

[Lavits75]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Exeider wrote...

mumwaldee369 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Check my sig, non-relay travel has been possible since Mass Effect 1. I did the actual math.

In RL the nebula that Ilium would be in is 5000 light years away.  That would require a lot of fuel and resources that may not be available in the middle of nowhere space.

in reality the crescent nebula is 5000 LY away, but on the ME Galactic map its positioned farther up the Outer Arm which puts it alot further away, more like one order of magnitude farther away. like 50K LY

-AE

The entire galaxy is roughly 100K LY. I find the 50K LY to be a poor estimate. Even if it were accurate, that's only 10 years.

That's only 10 years with NO supplies*

[Fawx9]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

SaladinDheonqar wrote...

It will be quite tragic if they go back on what they've already established to try and fix the mess that is the ending. I fear this is indeed what they'll do though, for how can it salvaged any other way?. Perhaps they think we're stupid enough to buy it, or maybe they just don't give a damn. One thing I know for sure: more space magic ain't going to fix a damn thing.

They aren't going back on anything. DO THE DAMN MATH.

Sorry, I'm losing patience.

Thew codex and in game characters clearly state it takes decades- centuries to cross the galaxy.
Just because you can theoretically do it in less time (one way trip, trading in real time is still screwed), doesn't mean it's actually viable.

Point a) If you can't dischangre because you ran into a patch of darkspace bewteen nebulas you're dead. It deosn't matter if you had the supplies you simply got unlucky.

It's going to take centuries simply to get new trade routes up and running which are safe to travel along.