440 réponses à ce sujet

[ctanctan]

tekkaman fear wrote...

Or, the survivors could always find an intact reaper and download relay making 101 from its corpse.

lol

[Jagri]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

The mass relays are the dominant and exclusive technology.


The reapers have millions of years of advancement over the current races.

There is nothing the current races could come up with in a thousand years that will rival the mass relays.  Why is this so hard to understand?  Removing the mass realys and saying, "Psssh no big deal" is delusional psychosis.

Even the game's lore contradicts what you're saying:

Taking a glance at the in game lore or Codex:
Once believed to be of Prothean origin, mass relays were in fact created by the Reapers using technology far beyond that of other living species. The enormous structures, scattered throughout the stars, create corridors of virtually mass-free space. This allows instantaneous transit between locations normally separated by years or even centuries using conventional FTL drives.

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...
/facepalm

Has been discussed already and blown out of the water.

Multiple path theory is bunk because the reapers would have already found a better way for their own personal travel.

And Legion even admits in ME3 with the reaper code the reapers are so far advanced installing the reaper code jumps geth thenology up ten fold, which only contradicts the multiple path theory.

Multiple paths, first of all, is not a theory, it is stated in the game, in the link I posted and elsewhere.  No, you cannot blow an established in-game fact out of the water using any means aside from headcannon.  Which is what this entire thread is built upon.  Your explanation of why it's bunk isn't even relevant to the concept in the first place.  A different means to the same end is not the same as surpassing that end, and this is where the inconsistency in your point is. 

years or even centuries using conventional FTL drives.

Conventional being the operative word.  Mass Relays made it unecesarry to make FTL drives anything beyond "conventional".  Again, Legion explains this in the video.  "Accepting another's technology blinds you to alternatives."

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 03:01 .

[TeffexPope]

LucasShark wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

I agree:
- In the codex it is clearly stated that with FTL flight it would take "decades or centuries" to cross between the clusters populated thanks to mass relays
- Drive discharge makes crossing infinite voids of space 100 percent impossible given the rules laid out thus far, see quote: "Barriers to exploration"
- Even the Reapers, with their "superior" FTL flight capabilities took 6-7 months to get from the Alpha Relay in Arrival to anothr viable onefor the start of ME3

(Yes I'm quoting myself)

Addition: I've seen the "but they can just rebuild the Mass Relays" argument about 1000 times: No.

The tech might exist yes, but even if you manage to build one: this leads to what I like to call "Lost in space the movie problem", in that now you have one: but you need to pull that trick again on the other side, rins, repeat.

Plus the relays have quantum shielding to prevent conventional means from destroying them. Seriously doubt even the Protheans were able to replicate quantum shielding, at least at the time they died. Yes they were close to unlocking mass relay tech, see the Conduit, but seriously, quantum shielding? That's ridic high tech stuff.

[Leafs43]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...
/facepalm

Has been discussed already and blown out of the water.

Multiple path theory is bunk because the reapers would have already found a better way for their own personal travel.

And Legion even admits in ME3 with the reaper code the reapers are so far advanced installing the reaper code jumps geth thenology up ten fold, which only contradicts the multiple path theory.

Multiple paths, first of all, is not a theory, it is stated in the game, in the link I posted and elsewhere.  No, you cannot blow an established in-game fact out of the water using any means aside from headcannon.  Which is what this entire thread is built upon.  Your explanation of why it's bunk isn't even relevant to the concept in the first place.  A different means to the same end is not the same as surpassing that end, and this is where the inconsistency in your point is. 

It's a theory stated by legion.

It's absolute hubris to think the reapers who have had millions of years to perfect galactic travel will suddenly be outdone by a species that cannot even replicate a mass relay let alone a whole galaxy full of them.

So you're wrong and you should feel bad.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Jagri wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

The mass relays are the dominant and exclusive technology.


The reapers have millions of years of advancement over the current races.

There is nothing the current races could come up with in a thousand years that will rival the mass relays.  Why is this so hard to understand?  Removing the mass realys and saying, "Psssh no big deal" is delusional psychosis.

Even the game's lore contradicts what you're saying:

Taking a glance at the in game lore or Codex:
Once believed to be of Prothean origin, mass relays were in fact created by the Reapers using technology far beyond that of other living species. The enormous structures, scattered throughout the stars, create corridors of virtually mass-free space. This allows instantaneous transit between locations normally separated by years or even centuries using conventional FTL drives.

There are other places in the Codex that describe FTL drives that can only go 200 times the speed of light (0.5[ly/day]). Clearly FTL technology has improved since "conventional FTL drives.

A drive that can only move 0.5[ly/day] would take centuries to cover some relay jumps.

The current drives that move at 15[ly/day] would not. Do the math, and you will be surprised.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Leafs43 wrote...

Until you show me the Math that contradicts my own, you are a fraud and a fearmonger to me.

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...
It's a theory stated by legion.

It's absolute hubris to think the reapers who have had millions of years to perfect galactic travel will suddenly be outdone by a species that cannot even replicate a mass relay let alone a whole galaxy full of them.

So you're wrong and you should feel bad.

I'm wrong and I should feel bad?  Are we really doing that?  It's about as unproductive as it is stupid.  Look, you made the same mistake in your response *again*.  Technology does not have to outdo the Mass Relay technology to be effective.  No, I am not wrong, and you're not even really arguing with me, you're arguing with the game itself, with Legion, AND with the Bioware staff.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 03:07 .

[Adanu]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Adanu wrote...

You can have mass relay-less FTL travel in a very simple manner.

Think about it. We are improving Mass Effect FTL drives all the time, with the Normandy being a prototype for a better design. Absolutely nothing says we can't improve the tech until rebuilding the network isn't needed anymore.

Except that the reapers reach a 30LY per day limit, and they don't need to stop and discharge static build up.  So great a trip that takes us 25 years will take them 10.  Given 10 years to prepare with the tech avail to ME civilizations and the reaper invasion fleet is freaking toast. 

Sorry but improvements to ME drive cores are never going to equal a mass relay.  Or come anywhere near the speeds needed to make intragalactic travel feasible. 

Nothing saying we can't improve over the Reapers designs either.

[Fawx9]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...
/facepalm

Has been discussed already and blown out of the water.

Multiple path theory is bunk because the reapers would have already found a better way for their own personal travel.

And Legion even admits in ME3 with the reaper code the reapers are so far advanced installing the reaper code jumps geth thenology up ten fold, which only contradicts the multiple path theory.

Multiple paths, first of all, is not a theory, it is stated in the game, in the link I posted and elsewhere.  No, you cannot blow an established in-game fact out of the water using any means aside from headcannon.  Which is what this entire thread is built upon.  Your explanation of why it's bunk isn't even relevant to the concept in the first place.  A different means to the same end is not the same as surpassing that end, and this is where the inconsistency in your point is. 

It's a theory stated by legion.

It's absolute hubris to think the reapers who have had millions of years to perfect galactic travel will suddenly be outdone by a species that cannot even replicate a mass relay let alone a whole galaxy full of them.

So you're wrong and you should feel bad.

I'm wrong and I should feel bad?  Are we really doing that?  Look, you made the same mistake in your response *again*.  Technology does not have to outdo the Mass Relay technology to be effective.  No, I am not wrong, and you're not even really arguing with me, you're arguing with the game itself, with Legion, AND with the Bioware staff.

And Legion did a double take in ME3 and accepted the Reaper tech because it was simply that much better and easier. Basically saying that it would take forever for the Geth to get to that point by themselves.

[UrgentArchengel]

Using all that juicy reaper tech would really help, but just think about how long it might take.

[CapnManx]

Jagri wrote...



Taking a glance at the in game lore or Codex:
Once believed to be of Prothean origin, mass relays were in fact created by the Reapers using technology far beyond that of other living species. The enormous structures, scattered throughout the stars, create corridors of virtually mass-free space. This allows instantaneous transit between locations normally separated by years or even centuries using conventional FTL drives.

You know, I really hate that Codex entry.  It seems to lay down the law (and certainly, many people take it to do so), yet it's actually wide open to interpretation.

It's natural to assume it means 'journeys taking years, or even longer journeys taking centuries'; but it could just as easily be dependent on ship type rather than distance.  Ion thrusters are really slow.  Anti-proton thrusters are really fast.

So it could mean 'years in a fast ship, or even centuries in a very slow one'.

[Geneaux486]

Fawx9 wrote...
And Legion did a double take in ME3 and accepted the Reaper tech because it was simply that much better and easier. Basically saying that it would take forever for the Geth to get to that point by themselves.

No, that's not what he's basically saying.  The Geth chose the quick and easy option because the quarians pushed them to desparation.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
And Legion did a double take in ME3 and accepted the Reaper tech because it was simply that much better and easier. Basically saying that it would take forever for the Geth to get to that point by themselves.

No, that's not what he's basically saying.  The Geth chose the quick and easy option because the quarians pushed them to desparation.

Just as people are trying to cling to the Relays now out of desperation.

[Fawx9]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
And Legion did a double take in ME3 and accepted the Reaper tech because it was simply that much better and easier. Basically saying that it would take forever for the Geth to get to that point by themselves.

No, that's not what he's basically saying.  The Geth chose the quick and easy option because the quarians pushed them to desparation.

He uploads the Repear code after the battle is basically over. If he thought that the Geth could do it on their own in a reasonable time frame there would have been no point in that.

[knight5923]

The big issue I have with the Mass Relays being ultimately without merit is that it completely invalidates the Reapers' plot from the very start. Their modus operandi was to create the Citadel and the Mass Relays so that organic life would develop along a predetermined course. But if FTL flight is, as has been insinuated, capable of making the Relay network inconsequential, then what the hell was the point of the whole plan in the first place? This race of old-as-time synthetics came up with a devious plot that could be easily unraveled by a random quirk of technological evolution?

[Exeider]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Jagri wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

The mass relays are the dominant and exclusive technology.


The reapers have millions of years of advancement over the current races.

There is nothing the current races could come up with in a thousand years that will rival the mass relays.  Why is this so hard to understand?  Removing the mass realys and saying, "Psssh no big deal" is delusional psychosis.

Even the game's lore contradicts what you're saying:

Taking a glance at the in game lore or Codex:
Once believed to be of Prothean origin, mass relays were in fact created by the Reapers using technology far beyond that of other living species. The enormous structures, scattered throughout the stars, create corridors of virtually mass-free space. This allows instantaneous transit between locations normally separated by years or even centuries using conventional FTL drives.

There are other places in the Codex that describe FTL drives that can only go 200 times the speed of light (0.5[ly/day]). Clearly FTL technology has improved since "conventional FTL drives.

A drive that can only move 0.5[ly/day] would take centuries to cover some relay jumps.

The current drives that move at 15[ly/day] would not. Do the math, and you will be surprised.

first off the codex entry your refering is talking about an example of what space would look like at 200 times the speed of light.

secondly, the max speed ever quoted is 12/LY a day, however when you calculate the down time the drive must go through to get rid of its drive core charge, meaning about 50 hours up time, and several hours to several days of charge dump, depending on where you are dumping it at. The average speed traveled goes down CONSIDERABLY. Do the math, you WILL be surprised.

Thirdly, Conventional FTL drives are refering to present day Mass Effect Drives. There aren't any other types of FTL.

Fourthly, There is no hard TOP speed when using Mass Effect, Acceleration is the key,  depending on what kind of normal drive you have will determine you Acceleration, and conversely you Decelleration. The problem is depending on the size of your core vs how massive your ship is, will determine what your PERSONAL Top speed is, because the faster you go or the more massive your ship is, the faster your drive core saturates. Which is why the codex says, Extremly fast speeds or super massive ships are infeasible.

-AE

[Leafs43]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Until you show me the Math that contradicts my own, you are a fraud and a fearmonger to me.

It's pretty simple math.

Even shading on the side of optimsim and allowing FTL to go 20LY/D it would still take close to 2 decades to go the diameter of the milkyway which used to take mere hours.



Imagine the United States, it typically takes about 2 days travel time by car.  Now imagine that it takes 20 years.  Do you know how fast the united states would implode?  That is the future that awaits the galaxy without mass relays.


If you don't realize how detrimental losing the mass relays is to galactic civilization, you're oblivious. 

[Geneaux486]

Fawx9 wrote...
He uploads the Repear code after the battle is basically over. If he thought that the Geth could do it on their own in a reasonable time frame there would have been no point in that.

That reasonable timeframe being, what, the thirty seconds before the quarian fleets blew them away?

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 03:16 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Delta_V2 wrote...

See, I never saw the need to destroy the Relays.  Sure, it was likely by the end of the game, but I didn't see it as a necessity.  The Relays are just tools, and weren't inherently evil.  They were used for an evil purpose by the Reapers, but if you can get rid of the Reapers, I see no reason not to use these tools.

I don't know if it's so much as "choosing" to destroy the relays, but rather it was just a consequence that would happen when the Crucible fired.

I'm sure if civilizations could still use them, they wouldn't have any issues with it.  JMO.

[Warrior Craess]

Adanu wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Adanu wrote...

You can have mass relay-less FTL travel in a very simple manner.

Think about it. We are improving Mass Effect FTL drives all the time, with the Normandy being a prototype for a better design. Absolutely nothing says we can't improve the tech until rebuilding the network isn't needed anymore.

Except that the reapers reach a 30LY per day limit, and they don't need to stop and discharge static build up.  So great a trip that takes us 25 years will take them 10.  Given 10 years to prepare with the tech avail to ME civilizations and the reaper invasion fleet is freaking toast. 

Sorry but improvements to ME drive cores are never going to equal a mass relay.  Or come anywhere near the speeds needed to make intragalactic travel feasible. 

Nothing saying we can't improve over the Reapers designs either.

Again how do you improve over instanteous? Relays are set so that the distance inbetween doesn't appear to matter. If you could set another Relay in a another galaxy you could for all intents and purposes cross that gap inbetween seconds.  It's really tough to think of a way to improve on that. 

All this divergent paths stuff is BS. Everyone knows that Mass relays work, And that they are the best travel speeds your going to achieve.  Therefor no one is going to consider much else for travel purposes.  it simply doesn't get any better than from one (less than Pico) second to another.  It doen't matter if eventually an alternate form of travel could be instanteous in 100 years. The relays will have been rebuilt and repopulated long before then. 

If you'r talking for FTL travel, it's unlikely.  Reapers didn't have to worry about static discharge. We will always have that problem. And Again we come to the fact thatt he tech for  FTL already exists and is in use.  Trying to find an alternate means of achieving FTL would be a waste of time and money, ergo it's not going to happen.  Or rather it's not going to happen in a commercial manner. It may happen everntually as a purely scientific curiousity.  Much like Purely Electric cars using fuel cell are having such a difficult time being researched and implemented. And we have a known issue with fossil fuels (we know for a fact that it will run out). 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 10 avril 2012 - 03:21 .

[Fawx9]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
He uploads the Repear code after the battle is basically over. If he thought that the Geth could do it on their own in a reasonable time frame there would have been no point in that.

That reasonable timeframe being, what, the thirty seconds before the quarian fleets blew them away?

You mean 30 seconds before Shepard can call off the Quarian blood hounds and leave them as is?

[Geneaux486]

Fawx9 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
He uploads the Repear code after the battle is basically over. If he thought that the Geth could do it on their own in a reasonable time frame there would have been no point in that.

That reasonable timeframe being, what, the thirty seconds before the quarian fleets blew them away?

You mean 30 seconds before Shepard can call off the Quarian blood hounds and leave them as is?

Which Shepard is only able to do at the last possible second.  My point that Legion is motivated by impending doom still stands.

[Delta_V2]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Delta_V2 wrote...

See, I never saw the need to destroy the Relays.  Sure, it was likely by the end of the game, but I didn't see it as a necessity.  The Relays are just tools, and weren't inherently evil.  They were used for an evil purpose by the Reapers, but if you can get rid of the Reapers, I see no reason not to use these tools.

I don't know if it's so much as "choosing" to destroy the relays, but rather it was just a consequence that would happen when the Crucible fired.

I'm sure if civilizations could still use them, they wouldn't have any issues with it.  JMO.

Yeah, I'd be fine (sort of, it would still really suck) with it just being an unfortunate side effect of using them to beat the Reapers.  I just disagree with the whole "Relays needed to be destroyed for organics to be free".

[Leafs43]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Adanu wrote...

You can have mass relay-less FTL travel in a very simple manner.

Think about it. We are improving Mass Effect FTL drives all the time, with the Normandy being a prototype for a better design. Absolutely nothing says we can't improve the tech until rebuilding the network isn't needed anymore.

Except that the reapers reach a 30LY per day limit, and they don't need to stop and discharge static build up.  So great a trip that takes us 25 years will take them 10.  Given 10 years to prepare with the tech avail to ME civilizations and the reaper invasion fleet is freaking toast. 

Sorry but improvements to ME drive cores are never going to equal a mass relay.  Or come anywhere near the speeds needed to make intragalactic travel feasible. 

Nothing saying we can't improve over the Reapers designs either.

Again how do you improve over instanteous? Relays are set so that the distance inbetween doesn't appear to matter. If you could set another Relay in a another galaxy you could for all intents and purposes cross that gap inbetween seconds.  It's really tough to think of a way to improve on that. 

All this divergent paths stuff is BS. Everyone knows that Mass relays work, And that they are the best travel speeds your going to achieve.  Therefor no one is going to consider much else for travel purposes.  it simply doesn't get any better than from one (less than Pico) second to another.  It doen't matter if eventually an alternate form of travel could be instanteous in 100 years. The relays will have been rebuilt and repopulated long before then. 

If you'r talking for FTL travel, it's unlikely.  Reapers didn't have to worry about static discharge. We will always have that problem. And Again we come to the fact thatt he tech for  FTL already exists and is in use.  Trying to find an alternate means of achieving FTL would be a waste of time and money, ergo it's not going to happen.  Or rather it's not going to happen in a commercial manner. It may happen everntually as a purely scientific curiousity.  Much like Purely Electric cars using fuel cell are having such a difficult time being researched and implemented. And we have a known issue with fossil fuels (we know for a fact that it will run out). 

To sum up, multiple path or divergent theory is basically like trying to reinvent the wheel.