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[Segameister]

It's hardly a choice to destroy the relays, they get destroyed no matter what

[Exeider]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
And Legion did a double take in ME3 and accepted the Reaper tech because it was simply that much better and easier. Basically saying that it would take forever for the Geth to get to that point by themselves.

No, that's not what he's basically saying.  The Geth chose the quick and easy option because the quarians pushed them to desparation.

Just as people are trying to cling to the Relays now out of desperation.

No, its just that people don't seem to be formulating their arguement for them correctly.

The Mass Relays solve the problem that ships with FTL have, and that is  Core size vs Ship Size.  It becomes a positive relationship, As one increases so must the other.

A ship has to have a core capable of lightening it enough to achieve FTL and have it be able to be at FTL for a reasonable period of time to be considered a good design.

It's impossible for a ship to have an extremely Massive Core, and yet be tiny, ideally that would be great, a HUGE core to lighten the ship thats already light, allowing to have insanely fast speeds.

and by Huge I mean WAY bigger then the normandy core.

The Mass Relay solves this dilemma, The Mass Relay is essentially a huge Mass Effect Engine, infact EDI says that it is the most powerful Mass Effect Engine in the galaxy.

This Huge Engine, creates the corridor of massless space and shoots ships along it at INSANE speeds, like 6 million times the speed of light or more to cross Intra-Galactic distances in seconds.

There is NOTHING, and I mean nothing in the Mass Effect universe that comes close to THAT KIND of acceleration. Even at 12LY/Day versus 25000 LY in 30 Seconds.

Yeah, I would say the Mass Relays are more then a convienance, they are a nessecity. The ME Universe does NEED them. If they are to get back anything close to what they had before.

the only choice is to rebuild them or bioware to rewrite them back into the story.

-AE

[Leafs43]

Exeider wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
And Legion did a double take in ME3 and accepted the Reaper tech because it was simply that much better and easier. Basically saying that it would take forever for the Geth to get to that point by themselves.

No, that's not what he's basically saying.  The Geth chose the quick and easy option because the quarians pushed them to desparation.

Just as people are trying to cling to the Relays now out of desperation.

No, its just that people don't seem to be formulating their arguement for them correctly.

The Mass Relays solve the problem that ships with FTL have, and that is  Core size vs Ship Size.  It becomes a positive relationship, As one increases so must the other.

A ship has to have a core capable of lightening it enough to achieve FTL and have it be able to be at FTL for a reasonable period of time to be considered a good design.

It's impossible for a ship to have an extremely Massive Core, and yet be tiny, ideally that would be great, a HUGE core to lighten the ship thats already light, allowing to have insanely fast speeds.

and by Huge I mean WAY bigger then the normandy core.

The Mass Relay solves this dilemma, The Mass Relay is essentially a huge Mass Effect Engine, infact EDI says that it is the most powerful Mass Effect Engine in the galaxy.

This Huge Engine, creates the corridor of massless space and shoots ships along it at INSANE speeds, like 6 million times the speed of light or more to cross Intra-Galactic distances in seconds.

There is NOTHING, and I mean nothing in the Mass Effect universe that comes close to THAT KIND of acceleration. Even at 12LY/Day versus 25000 LY in 30 Seconds.

Yeah, I would say the Mass Relays are more then a convienance, they are a nessecity. The ME Universe does NEED them. If they are to get back anything close to what they had before.

the only choice is to rebuild them or bioware to rewrite them back into the story.

-AE

^^^

This guy gets it.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Delta_V2 wrote...

See, I never saw the need to destroy the Relays.  Sure, it was likely by the end of the game, but I didn't see it as a necessity.  The Relays are just tools, and weren't inherently evil.  They were used for an evil purpose by the Reapers, but if you can get rid of the Reapers, I see no reason not to use these tools.

I don't know if it's so much as "choosing" to destroy the relays, but rather it was just a consequence that would happen when the Crucible fired.

I'm sure if civilizations could still use them, they wouldn't have any issues with it.  JMO.

But the Relays were designed so the Reapers can control us. Remember what Sovereign said?

Yes the tech is not inherently bad, but we didn't earn it, and the Reapers used that fact to exploit us.

[CapnManx]

Leafs43 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Until you show me the Math that contradicts my own, you are a fraud and a fearmonger to me.

It's pretty simple math.

Even shading on the side of optimsim and allowing FTL to go 20LY/D it would still take close to 2 decades to go the diameter of the milkyway which used to take mere hours.



Imagine the United States, it typically takes about 2 days travel time by car.  Now imagine that it takes 20 years.  Do you know how fast the united states would implode?  That is the future that awaits the galaxy without mass relays.


If you don't realize how detrimental losing the mass relays is to galactic civilization, you're oblivious. 

'Galactic' civilization was never exactly a single entity to begin with (Terminus Systems and all that); but yes, certainly, it will be detrimental.  Things will change, society will reorganise itself around smaller groupings for trade purposes; while long distance travel will be relatively rare, and only undertaken when there is real need.

Long range communications will largely be the only regular contact between distant economic and political groupings.

It'll be different.  It won't necessarily be dead.

[Leafs43]

CapnManx wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Until you show me the Math that contradicts my own, you are a fraud and a fearmonger to me.

It's pretty simple math.

Even shading on the side of optimsim and allowing FTL to go 20LY/D it would still take close to 2 decades to go the diameter of the milkyway which used to take mere hours.



Imagine the United States, it typically takes about 2 days travel time by car.  Now imagine that it takes 20 years.  Do you know how fast the united states would implode?  That is the future that awaits the galaxy without mass relays.


If you don't realize how detrimental losing the mass relays is to galactic civilization, you're oblivious. 

'Galactic' civilization was never exactly a single entity to begin with (Terminus Systems and all that); but yes, certainly, it will be detrimental.  Things will change, society will reorganise itself around smaller groupings for trade purposes; while long distance travel will be relatively rare, and only undertaken when there is real need.

Long range communications will largely be the only regular contact between distant economic and political groupings.

It'll be different.  It won't necessarily be dead.

Most societies would implode.

The only worlds that would survive would be worlds that are self sustaining.  
And coming out of a genocidal war, that may only be a handful. 


Any world that leaned heavily on trade or has a smashed infrastructure would be facing end of days type of scenarios. 

Modifié par Leafs43, 10 avril 2012 - 03:41 .

[JPN17]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Delta_V2 wrote...

See, I never saw the need to destroy the Relays.  Sure, it was likely by the end of the game, but I didn't see it as a necessity.  The Relays are just tools, and weren't inherently evil.  They were used for an evil purpose by the Reapers, but if you can get rid of the Reapers, I see no reason not to use these tools.

I don't know if it's so much as "choosing" to destroy the relays, but rather it was just a consequence that would happen when the Crucible fired.

I'm sure if civilizations could still use them, they wouldn't have any issues with it.  JMO.

But the Relays were designed so the Reapers can control us. Remember what Sovereign said?

Yes the tech is not inherently bad, but we didn't earn it, and the Reapers used that fact to exploit us.

Yeah, but with the reapers gone then it's not an issue. The races of the galaxy will eventually evovle past relying on the relays and come up with other technologies. The only reason that doesn't happen is because the reapers destroyed galactic civilization before they reached that point. With the reapers gone it doesn't matter.

[Jagri]

Leafs43 wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Until you show me the Math that contradicts my own, you are a fraud and a fearmonger to me.

It's pretty simple math.

Even shading on the side of optimsim and allowing FTL to go 20LY/D it would still take close to 2 decades to go the diameter of the milkyway which used to take mere hours.



Imagine the United States, it typically takes about 2 days travel time by car.  Now imagine that it takes 20 years.  Do you know how fast the united states would implode?  That is the future that awaits the galaxy without mass relays.


If you don't realize how detrimental losing the mass relays is to galactic civilization, you're oblivious. 

'Galactic' civilization was never exactly a single entity to begin with (Terminus Systems and all that); but yes, certainly, it will be detrimental.  Things will change, society will reorganise itself around smaller groupings for trade purposes; while long distance travel will be relatively rare, and only undertaken when there is real need.

Long range communications will largely be the only regular contact between distant economic and political groupings.

It'll be different.  It won't necessarily be dead.

Most societies would implode.

The only worlds that would survive would be worlds that are self sustaining.  
And coming out of a genocidal war, that may only be a handful. 


Any world that leaned heavily on trade or has a smashed infrastructure would be facing end of days type of scenarios. 

Look on the bright side... Now the Mass Effect universe can head down the Warhammer 40k universes path. Genocide isn't a dirty word anymore and everyone is killing everyone else over limited resources.

[MyChemicalBromance]

JPN17 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Delta_V2 wrote...

See, I never saw the need to destroy the Relays.  Sure, it was likely by the end of the game, but I didn't see it as a necessity.  The Relays are just tools, and weren't inherently evil.  They were used for an evil purpose by the Reapers, but if you can get rid of the Reapers, I see no reason not to use these tools.

I don't know if it's so much as "choosing" to destroy the relays, but rather it was just a consequence that would happen when the Crucible fired.

I'm sure if civilizations could still use them, they wouldn't have any issues with it.  JMO.

But the Relays were designed so the Reapers can control us. Remember what Sovereign said?

Yes the tech is not inherently bad, but we didn't earn it, and the Reapers used that fact to exploit us.

Yeah, but with the reapers gone then it's not an issue. The races of the galaxy will eventually evovle past relying on the relays and come up with other technologies. The only reason that doesn't happen is because the reapers destroyed galactic civilization before they reached that point. With the reapers gone it doesn't matter.

"Accepting another's path..."

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 10 avril 2012 - 03:45 .

[CapnManx]

Leafs43 wrote...



Most societies would implode.

The only worlds that would survive would be worlds that are self sustaining.  
And coming out of a genocidal war, that may only be a handful. 


Any world that leaned heavily on trade or has a smashed infrastructure would be facing end of days type of scenarios. 

You assume that trade is not possible within a star cluster; not every place was reached by relay.

In many places, people are going to starve to death (industrial settlements on inhospitable worlds for instance), and in others they may fall back into a primitive agrarian society (low tech agricultural worlds and frontier colonies).  But we also have well developed garden worlds like Illium, which have plenty of resources and skilled personel; and which probably have fleets of commercial vessels at their disposal.  These would serve as local hubs (like market towns).

They would indeed rely heavily on trade; so the only thing they can do is try and reach out to nearby worlds, and get started on rebuilding interstellar civilisation; at least on a local level.  Trying to get other colonies up and running again is the only way they'll see any trade; so they've got no choice.

[s.nebulous]

FTL without mass relays would not be the same, the galaxy most definitely would be different.

But I reject the premise that civilizations will not find an alternative, or that reaper technology is out of their reach.

[Leafs43]

s.nebulous wrote...

FTL without mass relays would not be the same, the galaxy most definitely would be different.

But I reject the premise that civilizations will not find an alternative, or that reaper technology is out of their reach.

There is no alternate technology.

We are talking about a technology that allows instant travel to the other side of the galaxy with little to no effort.  There is no technology that could replace that in the foreseeable future.  And if there was, the reapers would have used it themselves.  (Mass Effect tech is actually above Star Wars tech with regards to the mass relays)


The only option the galaxy has is mass relays.  

Which leaves 2 options, rebuild the mass relays or the writers have to write them back in.

And then the logistics of replicating the mass relay network is ridiculously complicated.  Not every system will have the resources to build one, or even know how to build one.  

And current races cannot even replicate the technology of one.  It took 100 years for the protheans, which were farther along than we were led to believe could only make 1 small mass relay and it had to be point to point with the citadel.


Give the galaxy 100 years without mass relays, the galaxy would be in dystopian hell.

Modifié par Leafs43, 10 avril 2012 - 04:00 .

[Allan Schumacher]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

But the Relays were designed so the Reapers can control us. Remember what Sovereign said?

Yes the tech is not inherently bad, but we didn't earn it, and the Reapers used that fact to exploit us.

To be fair, though, the Reapers are no longer a part of the equation.  That they have tools left behind that we find convenient I think makes their existence inconsequential.  Even if it makes us ignore other alternatives to transportation technology.

[JPN17]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

JPN17 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Delta_V2 wrote...

See, I never saw the need to destroy the Relays.  Sure, it was likely by the end of the game, but I didn't see it as a necessity.  The Relays are just tools, and weren't inherently evil.  They were used for an evil purpose by the Reapers, but if you can get rid of the Reapers, I see no reason not to use these tools.

I don't know if it's so much as "choosing" to destroy the relays, but rather it was just a consequence that would happen when the Crucible fired.

I'm sure if civilizations could still use them, they wouldn't have any issues with it.  JMO.

But the Relays were designed so the Reapers can control us. Remember what Sovereign said?

Yes the tech is not inherently bad, but we didn't earn it, and the Reapers used that fact to exploit us.

Yeah, but with the reapers gone then it's not an issue. The races of the galaxy will eventually evovle past relying on the relays and come up with other technologies. The only reason that doesn't happen is because the reapers destroyed galactic civilization before they reached that point. With the reapers gone it doesn't matter.

"Accepting another's path..."

I already explained why it's not an issue.

[Icinix]

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Future technology established could well exceed beyond any level previously discovered as it doesn't follow the established paths.

[DaeJi]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

"Accepting another's path..."

Which the galaxy at this point really has no point in. The technology the Reapers left behind to be discovered is not just the Relays and Citadel, it's Mass Effect technology. Everything from shields to starships to weapons to engines to Traynors 6000 credit toothbrush are based on the technological path the Reapers wanted the galaxy to go down. The species of the galaxy are not going to forgo Mass Effect technology because the Reapers left it. It would be like Mordin not using Maelon's data (if it was saved) just because of how it gotten.

The galaxy is already on the Reaper's path, even the Geth (again, possible due to Mass Effect technology a.k.a. the gifts of the Reapers). All removing the Relays do is make life much more difficult and robs the Mass Effect series of one of the key elements separating it from series like Star Wars.

[Leafs43]

Icinix wrote...

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Future technology established could well exceed beyond any level previously discovered as it doesn't follow the established paths.

This theory is debunked.

Multiple path theory = reinventing the wheel.

Read the thread.

Modifié par Leafs43, 10 avril 2012 - 04:10 .

[Icinix]

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Future technology established could well exceed beyond any level previously discovered as it doesn't follow the established paths.

This theory is debunked.

Read the thread.

I did.

Its not.

[CapnManx]

Leafs43 wrote...

s.nebulous wrote...

FTL without mass relays would not be the same, the galaxy most definitely would be different.

But I reject the premise that civilizations will not find an alternative, or that reaper technology is out of their reach.

There is no alternate technology.

We are talking about a technology that allows instant travel to the other side of the galaxy with little to no effort.  There is no technology that could replace that in the foreseeable future.  And if there was, the reapers would have used it themselves.  (Mass Effect tech is actually above Star Wars tech with regards to the mass relays)


The only option the galaxy has is mass relays.  

Which leaves 2 options, rebuild the mass relays or the writers have to write them back in.

And then the logistics of replicating the mass relay network is ridiculously complicated.  Not every system will have the resources to build one, or even know how to build one.  

And current races cannot even replicate the technology of one.  It took 100 years for the protheans, which were farther along than we were led to believe could only make 1 small mass relay and it had to be point to point with the citadel.


Give the galaxy 100 years without mass relays, the galaxy would be in dystopian hell.

See, this is the part of your argument I just can't get my head around.  Why do you consider it absolutely necessary to be able to fly from one end of the galaxy to the other in order for civilization to survive?

It's necessary for civilization as we knew it in the ME games, sure, but that doesn't mean it can't adapt to a change of circumstances.  It absolutely means hard times ahead, but that's just new opportunities for story telling (should there be any more ME); it's not the end of the universe though. 

People will pick themselves up and find other ways to live.  That's what people do.  And since they do have FTL, and since there are many inhabited worlds out there, galactic civilization will, sooner or later,  reemerge in a new form.

[DaeJi]

Icinix wrote...

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Why? Mass Effect technology works, everyone knows it works, the Reapers (the most advanced forms of technology encountered) use Mass Effect technology, seriously all they are going to do is rebuild the Relays making destroying them pointless.

[Leafs43]

Icinix wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Future technology established could well exceed beyond any level previously discovered as it doesn't follow the established paths.

This theory is debunked.

Read the thread.

I did.

Its not.

Instananeous point to point galactic travel, that theortical could also be used intergalactically, is the pinnacle of technology.

You won't get a better technology than it.

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Future technology established could well exceed beyond any level previously discovered as it doesn't follow the established paths.

This theory is debunked.

Multiple path theory = reinventing the wheel.

Read the thread.

No, it has not been debunked.  It's practically in-game cannon.  Your wheel analogy fails because the simplicity of the wheel is a jumping off point, not a technological end. 

Again, for anyone just coming here: 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 04:16 .

[Warrior Craess]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Delta_V2 wrote...

See, I never saw the need to destroy the Relays.  Sure, it was likely by the end of the game, but I didn't see it as a necessity.  The Relays are just tools, and weren't inherently evil.  They were used for an evil purpose by the Reapers, but if you can get rid of the Reapers, I see no reason not to use these tools.

I don't know if it's so much as "choosing" to destroy the relays, but rather it was just a consequence that would happen when the Crucible fired.

I'm sure if civilizations could still use them, they wouldn't have any issues with it.  JMO.

Rather long winded response.

But then we get into the mechanics of why the relays explode. As far as I can see with out there being a significant explosion (nova level as opposed to supernova - but everyones still screwed anyway.) there really isn't any reason for the relays to explode. 

I think we all agree that the relays explode because they are overloaded with energy. Some of that energy is used in turn to signal other relays who build up charge and then relays energy. It's also possible to overload a enough a propulsive device with enough energy to get it to explode. If it doesn't have the approriate fail safes for that type of activity.  Zap a propane tank with enough electricity and see what happens (may want to stand a long ways away though). However while you can shut down a powerplant by flooding it with electricity, it's incredibly hard to make that same powerplant explode. It's designed to be able to safely shunt the excess energy elsewhere away from it's combustible parts.  

We have in game lore that the relays are designed to transfer energy safely. Its done all the time with the communications. And yes radiowaves are energy, and yes enough of them can play merry freaking havoc on your power (battlefield:LA actually got that right).  So if the relays are designed and capable of handlin energy transfer, it's going to take rather more energy that is depicted in the catalyst explosion to overload them, and cause themt to explode. 

Now lets consider the type of energy being released.  

In control it's just a communication energy. in no way shape or from should there be enough to cause the relays to even blink much less explode. yes the blue energy looks cool, thats about all the effect it should have.  

in Synthesis the green energy may actually require enough energy to explode the relays. But then the energy required to alter atomic structure is well, destructive to say the least. in no way shape or from should there be anything left at all. Of anything, not just the relays. The galaxy in proximity to a relay shshould be fried completely. So well just go with space magic, which means who know what the physics of it are.  I'd just like to point out that said space magic is gentle enough that no-one on earth seems to notice it. (watch the soldiers on earth.. they don't react at all to being changed.), yet destructive enough that it destroyed the relay in a rather spectacular explosion. 

In the Destroy ending. the energy runs the gamut from galaxy destroyingly destructive - to just overloading the reapers. So with Very low EMS it also makes sence that the relays could explode from being overloaded. Again unlikely due to the built in safety features of  any devise designed to transmit energy.  But still possible. but you really really have to work at getting a low EMS score to effect this ending.  More common is the destroy ending where humand are left alive. Reapers are simply shorted out.  (the swirling flame stuff can be forgiven as dramatic license even if it make no sence - soldiers should have died with that much flame blowing through).  Now you can effectively short out electronics with sufficiently strong radio waves.  This could easily have been done here, as it's obviously not an explosion that kills the reapers and yet leaves big ben and the soldiers still standning. Know what happens to a radio submitted to sufficiently strong radio waves?  it stops working, but it doesn't explode and neother does it's power supply. 

Which leave us with the real reason why the relays exploded. Dramatic flair. There is no logical reason for the relays to explode (stop working ? yeah they could do that.. but not explode).  So if the real reason is simply because it looks cool, then why destroy the future playability of the game verse? 

[DaeJi]

Leafs43 wrote...

Instananeous point to point galactic travel, that theortical could also be used intergalactically, is the pinnacle of technology.

You won't get a better technology than it.

Actually the technology to fuse organics and synthetics into a godless abomination is far more impressive as far as technology goes.

But the Relays fit the story and benefit people.

[Leafs43]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Future technology established could well exceed beyond any level previously discovered as it doesn't follow the established paths.

This theory is debunked.

Multiple path theory = reinventing the wheel.

Read the thread.

No, it has not been debunked.  It's practically in-game cannon.  Your wheel analogy fails because the simplicity of the wheel is a jumping off point, not a technological end. 

Again, for anyone just coming here: 

reinventing the wheel = duplicating something that has already been optimized.

It fits perfectly with the mass relays and other technology.