262 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkslayer557]

Geth infiltrator beats salarian infiltrator? Krogan soldier in the E tier? WTF is wrong with you people...

[Atheosis]

RamsenC wrote...

I'll help I guess. Singularity is awesome against Reapers for one. It's a better crowd control tool than Stasis. You can just drop a singularity somewhere and it'll snatch up all the unarmored chumps. On top of that Warp is awesome obviously.

I hate Shockwave because of the constant screen shake, but it's actually a decent detonator against Reapers. You should really have a biotic partner though. I would never use this class outside of Reapers if you can't tell, but the class doesn't suck.

So you can toss around a few Cannibals and that makes Singularity good?  Since when have Cannibals ever been even remotely threatening?  Am I missing something?

And yes Shockwave can be used to detonate BE's.  But it has terrible range for doing so, and again does jack **** on its own against anything with shields, barriers, or armor.

And when you say you would never use it against anything but Reapers you kind of undermine your argument, as any class with Warp can excel against Reapers when paired with other biotics.  That is not proof that the class on its own is not terrible.

[Diablerist666]

Statis and Singularity affect the same targets in MP with the exception of Barriered Phantoms.
Throw and Shockwave affect the same targets in MP in a similar manner.

By your logic Asari Adept is the second worst class after HA.

[HolyAvenger]

Diablerist666 wrote...

Statis and Singularity affect the same targets in MP with the exception of Barriered Phantoms.
Throw and Shockwave affect the same targets in MP in a similar manner.

Except not as stasis also affects Marauders, Rocket Troopers and Geth Hunters. And the much greater range throw has makes it much more viable at distance and from cover.

[Looper128]

Krogan vanguard is now mid B

Bterian soldier is now mid B

Drell adept is now high C

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Lopper128 wrote...
If your familiar with tiers you should know that usage and not potencial is what defines them.

  What are you on?  First off, it's "you're."  Sorry but I just find that so incredibly annoying.  More relevantly,  I am familiar with tiers.  Usage establishes the metagame, it does not establish tiers.  Where the heck did you get this idea that usage establishes tiers?  That's the kind of thing that they make fun of people for on SRK.

It depends on the game, in most fighting games the smash series for example tiers are based on results from turneys. If fox players wins 9 of then 10 turneys hes tired as the best char and so on.

In other games like the pokemon franchises for example tiers are completly based on usage exept the Uber tiers where pokemon demanded "broken" (after testing) are placed.

I'm doing my best to base this list of multiple things usage is just one of them. Maybe the best thing should be to have a poll how exactly we should make the tiers in this game, I can imagine they would look alot diffrent if we only ranked them after potencial.

On a personal note, I have nothing but respect for you and your ideas and I know your a good MP player. But I wont keep having you insulting me. If you cant keep this on an adult level and refrain from using terms like "what are you on?" I will start reporting you.

This tier is created by me but its changed acording to other users input. I would like us to be able to cooperate to make the most accurate tire as possible.

Modifié par Lopper128, 26 avril 2012 - 05:54 .

[Atheosis]

Diablerist666 wrote...

Statis and Singularity affect the same targets in MP with the exception of Barriered Phantoms.
Throw and Shockwave affect the same targets in MP in a similar manner.

By your logic Asari Adept is the second worst class after HA.

Are you trolling me?  Stasis affects everything but armored targets while Singularity only affects targets with no shields, barriers, or armor (while also having a much better actual effect on targets), and Throw has a much longer range and a much quicker recharge than Shockwave (and its range and recharge speed make it far, far, far better for detonating BE's).  

I'm afraid this debate is starting to kill my brain cells...

[Looper128]

Turian soldier is now high E

Human soldier is low E

Baterian soldier also got bumped up again to high B

@everyone

I'm sorry I can't answer all of your comments individually, I still want to make asure you that I read every singel post and take everything you say into consideration when I do chanhes in the tiers.

edit: I also watch ideos you may post =)

Modifié par Lopper128, 26 avril 2012 - 05:55 .

[ShadowLordXXX]

Why is Human Sentinel ranked the same as Human Adept? The Human Sentinel is arguably as good, if not better than the Asari Adept as it brings the same biotic combo, but is potentially far more survivable while also dealing heavier power damage(no more explosion damage but having the ability to one-2 shot all basic mooks with throw on gold is pretty good) He lacks stasis but stasis only really shines versus Cerberus, versus Reapers it's useless and versus Geth its only soemwhat useful.

Modifié par ShadowLordXXX, 26 avril 2012 - 05:57 .

[Looper128]

ShadowLordXXX wrote...

Why is Human Sentinel ranked the same as Human Adept? The Human Sentinel is arguably as good, if not better than the Asari Adept as it brings the same biotic combo, but is potentially far more survivable while also dealing heavier power damage(no more explosion damage but having the ability to one-2 shot all basic mooks with throw on gold is pretty good) He lacks stasis but stasis only really shines versus Cerberus, versus Reapers it's useless and versus Geth its only soemwhat useful.

Lopper128 wrote...

Human sentinel Tech armor is just an hindrence, lesser dodge then the
asari adept, only moderate usage. The asari adept can do everything the
human sentinel can do but better.

Basicly theres no reason to use him before the asari adept.

[GodlessPaladin]

Lopper128 wrote..
In other games like the pokemon franchises for example tiers are completly based on usage exept he Uber tiers where pokemon demanded "broken" (after testing) are placed.

 
Did you seriously just determine that by what they decided to name the tiers over at Smogon?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd wager that the Smogon tiers are named after usage by the highly competitive players of the Smogon community, who are playing to kick ass and picking what they deem to be the most effective possible choices.  This is not a case of people saying "gee, lots of people use Pikachu because it's Pikachu so he'll be OU tier."  No, this is a case of people saying "Everyone smart's going to ****ing use Gliscor over something like Beedrill if they want to win."

These people will kick your uber team's ass with Magikarp. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 26 avril 2012 - 06:50 .

[Diablerist666]

Atheosis wrote...
Stasis affects everything but armored targets while Singularity only affects targets with no shields, barriers, or armor (while also having a much better actual effect on targets), and Throw has a much longer range and a much quicker recharge than Shockwave (and its range and recharge speed make it far, far, far better for detonating BE's).  

Fully evolved Singularity locks everything that is unarmored except Phantoms with Barriers and Nemesis with shields (she seems to be able to dodge it after being hit with Singularity). By better effect do you mean that a lot of the time the enemy glitches out and can't be damaged or just shoots you while lying on the ground covered in Statis? Sometimes producing unkillable enemies resisant even to Cobras? Statis also has a painfully long recharge.

The recharge on Throw is moslty irrelevant for BE because you're waiting for the recharge of Warp. The range is rarely an issue as the maps are pretty small. You can detonate from manual cover which is a lot better than actually sticking to cover, the most common death cause on Gold. Throw might seem better by itself for mooks, but you can achieve similar effect with Singularity. A Singularity with Lifting Damage will kill a Gold Husk. I tested it today. Disregard the math in the Power's description. Singularity and Pull seem to have an inherent damage seperate from evolutions. That's why you see mooks dying from Pull (3 ranks) and Brutes killed by Singularites.

Edit: Also Shockwave is a lot harder to dodge than Throw.

Modifié par Diablerist666, 26 avril 2012 - 06:24 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Lopper128 wrote...
Basicly theres no reason to use him before the asari adept.

What the heck makes you think that?  I think you are overestimating the importance of Stasis.  I hardly care about it at all when not fighting Cerberus.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 26 avril 2012 - 06:34 .

[Looper128]

Relix28 wrote...

Drell Adept and Krogan Vanguard should be
bumped up the tier list. One completely dominates on tight enclosed
maps (like glacier) and has two insanely powerful biotic abilites, that
not only synergize well with themselves, but also with other biotic
teammates. The other one is impossible to kill, if played correctly,
save the Banshee, Brute, Phantom and Atlas insta-kills. And even those
can be easily avoided, if you play it smart. He also synergizes well
with biotic teammates that can prime his targets, and can act as a
"decoy" (aka aggro puller), so the whole team can finish off large
groups without being shot at. Oh, and he's also immune to most stagger
attacks.

I agree with your arguments on the krogan vanguard. I have bumped him up to mid B and Drell adept is now high C.

dipss wrote...
IMO
geth engineer & salarian engineer should be swapped. Salarian
engineer has way more survivability compared to the geth (energy drain
& normal shields/health vs hunter mode which reduces the shield by
375 & low health). Energy drain has pretty much the same stunning
effect of overload and can be specced into AOE ED too, just like
overload. Not to mention that the salarian has a much better weapon for
armored targets (incinerate) then the geth has. Infact apart from a
weapon with armor pen ammo/mod the geth has very little against
armor.

If you chose the damage path for the geth turret
it does heay damage to armor, if not the GPS togheter with the geths
natural knick for geth wepons and hunter mode kills armored foes in a
matter of seconds. And energy drain cant be compared to overlode, it
just dont have the amazing mob control abillities that chain overlode
does. I do agree with the salarian engineer being the best tank in the
game though.

-Jaren- wrote...

Krogan Vanguard and Drell Adept are C
tier? This list is silly... Krogan Vanguard is unkillable if you are
skilled. Drell Adept lower than Justicar?

I saw that you, TC,
mentioned how she has better shileds? This is false is you actually
think about it. To dodge on an Asari as you know, uses shields. I can
dodge around on my space ninja ahem* Drell adept, and not lose shield at
all.  Also the Drell's dodge covers more ground.

Imo CG > Bubble. CG is the highest fastest damage you can do in MP. Why do people forget that?

The
Drell adept only have 250 base shield compared to the justicars 500, we
also got that combined with the bubbl giving 20% damage reduction even
when its speced for damage. It just gives the justicare so much more
survivability while she still can do massive damage as the Drell, she
also have better synergy with other biotics and can suport every other
class in he game compared to the Drell.

She is overall the better charakter in almost every way.

Ashilana wrote...

Lopper128 wrote...

E tier:

Human soldier

Krogan sentinel

Krogan Soldier

Turian Soldier

Rofl... so funny.   You really haven't played one of them much have you...

I played the krogans to death, the human soldier less and the turian soldier is one of my least played chars in the game.

Tangster wrote...

Jayhau wrote...
Bottom tier
Human adept
Quarian engi
Drell vanguard

This hurts me.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]

Me to =/

Tangster wrote...

Lopper128 wrote...
I'm actully really intrested in seeing this, please do it. o.o

Until I buy a new storage disk/SSD, Will waves 1-3 do? Not exactly my best, but I am a bit rusty after a week or so of not touching ME3 MP.

Quarian Engineer, FB:W, Cerberus Gold, Waves 1-3.

I enjoyed watching that short video of the first 3 waves. I hope you can make a full one in the future =)

Modifié par Lopper128, 26 avril 2012 - 06:31 .

[Looper128]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Lopper128 wrote..
In other games like the pokemon franchises for example tiers are completly based on usage exept he Uber tiers where pokemon demanded "broken" (after testing) are placed.

Did you seriously just determine that by what they decided to NAME the tiers over at Smogon?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd wager that the Smogon tiers are named after usage by the HIGHLY COMPETITIVE POKEMON PLAYERS OF THE SMOGON COMMUNITY, who are playing to kick ass and picking what they deem to be the most effective possible choices. This is not a case of people saying "gee, lots of people use Pikachu because it's Pikachu so he'll be OU tier." No, this is a case of people saying "Everyone smart's going to ****ing use Gliscor over something like Beedrill if they want to win."

These people will kick your uber team's ass with Magikarp.

I'm sorry I have truble seeing your point over your raging.

How it works on smogon and PO is that they count the usage of everyone pokem on in OU if its used by enough ppl it will be in the OU tier, if its less its the BL, UU or NU

Uber pokemons is NOT demanded uber ny usage though. These pokemon are voted about then carfully tested over a certain period of time and then voted if they should stay in OU or be moved from standard play to Uber.

Anyways this is hardly on topic. And for the last time. Keep the discussions on an adult level or I will report your post. If you cant do this I suggest you stay out of this thred entierly.

[GodlessPaladin]

Lopper128 wrote...
I'm sorry I have TRUBLE seeing your point over your raging.

Anyways this is hardly on topic. And for the last time. Keep the
discussions on an adult level or I will report your post. If you CANT do
this I suggest you stay out of this THRED ENTIERLY.

Uhm, WHAT?    The only one here I see turning to personal attacks is you.  Hypocrisy much?

I point out that it's probably measuring usage by members of a specific highly competitive and unusually competent community, not by people as a whole, and you whine about how that's apparently "raging" and threaten to go to the mods because... what?  I made a counterpoint you couldn't respond to and posted a link to a fun video of a skilled pokemon player?

You need to get your reading comprehension checked.  There is no rage nor any personal insults being used in my previous post, but there are certainly ad hominem attacks in yours.  So yeah, feel free to report me for making a counterpoint.  See how that works out for you. I'm sure they'll really appreciate your misguided backseat moderating.

EDIT:  Hey guess what, I just checked with the Smogon guys, and they say I'm right.  It is based on the competitive community, not usage at large.  So now you're raging at me for "raging" by correctly informing you about the basis for the Pokemon tier list and why usage is justifiable in that context, and not in yours.  As such, it falsifies your claim that your basis for tier lists is actually utilized by a tier list that is taken seriously, and Pokemon was your only claimed example.

Got a reference, too:  http://www.smogon.co...ead.php?t=29788

But hey, you know, when you know you're losing an argument, just accuse the other guy of "raging" and "being childish" eh, Lopper?  Slinging ad hominem arguments is a pretty transparent last resort.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 26 avril 2012 - 07:30 .

[Looper128]

@GodlessPaladin

Feel free to keep posting but you will now be completly ignored by me becuse of reasons previusly stated.

[GodlessPaladin]

Lopper128 wrote...

@GodlessPaladin

Feel free to keep posting but you will now be completly ignored by me becuse of reasons previusly stated.

Ah yes, because providing evidence that soundly falsifies the premises of your argument is apparently "raging" and "not acting like an adult" and going "talk to the hand" in response to someone destroying your argument exemplifies maturity.   Cute.

What happened to your threat to report me for making a valid counterpoint to your flawed argument?  Oh right, you know that won't work since I'm not actually doing anything wrong and you are just making a show.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 26 avril 2012 - 07:28 .

[J-Reyno]

The biggest thing that I would contest here is the placement of the Human Sentinel.  Whether you prefer the AA or not, the HS is in no way so bad as D tier.  Personally, I think it belong in the B or at least C tier because it is a powerful biotic character.  The raw damage of a HS is insane and Tech Armor can cancel OHKOs.  I repeat: CANCEL OHKOs. The replacement of stasis with Tech Armor may dictate an alternate playstyle that you're unwilling or unable to utilize, but does not make the character suck, nor does it make the HS a suboptimal choice.  There are definitely reasons to bring a HS as opposed to an AA, especially when fighting the reapers.  Just sayin.  

Uncertain about the Human Engineer.  I feel it might deserve a C, as it can be ruthless especially in a tech team.  But I'd agree that it's definitely bland compared to its Salarian and Geth counterparts.

Last, the Quarian Engineer is somewhat underrated.  I used to think she was garbage too, but I recently picked her up and started pitting her against the Reapers where she can be pretty monstrous.  Quite effective vs. Cerberus as well, though the last time I pit her against the Geth my performance was a little underwhelming.  I'd vote for at least one tier bump up for her.

Modifié par Reyno411, 26 avril 2012 - 07:14 .

[Diablerist666]

The Tech Armor OHKO cancel is an urban myth. It only worked for me once, when I was dragged for a good ten meters, which is almost always the result of lag. If she picks you up instantly you're locked out. I'm not saying he's bad though. Anyway a Tier List based on usage? There are many "what's your favorite class" threads already. I'd advise reffering to GP's or Sabresandiego's lists.

[GodlessPaladin]

Diablerist666 wrote...

The Tech Armor OHKO cancel is an urban myth.

Yeah... I've heard lots of people mention it and I tried it myself... totally didn't work...

[Looper128]

Reyno411 wrote...

The biggest thing that I would contest here is the placement of the Human Sentinel.  Whether you prefer the AA or not, the HS is in no way so bad as D tier.  Personally, I think it belong in the B or at least C tier because it is a powerful biotic character.  The raw damage of a HS is insane and Tech Armor can cancel OHKOs.  I repeat: CANCEL OHKOs. The replacement of stasis with Tech Armor may dictate an alternate playstyle that you're unwilling or unable to utilize, but does not make the character suck, nor does it make the HS a suboptimal choice.  There are definitely reasons to bring a HS as opposed to an AA, especially when fighting the reapers.  Just sayin.  

Uncertain about the Human Engineer.  I feel it might deserve a C, as it can be ruthless especially in a tech team.  But I'd agree that it's definitely bland compared to its Salarian and Geth counterparts.

Last, the Quarian Engineer is somewhat underrated.  I used to think she was garbage too, but I recently picked her up and started pitting her against the Reapers where she can be pretty monstrous.  Quite effective vs. Cerberus as well, though the last time I pit her against the Geth my performance was a little underwhelming.  I'd vote for at least one tier bump up for her.

If the human sentinel actully could cancel OHKOs he would without a doubt be A or even god tier.

Human engineer is.. meh. Hes not bad bad but not any special either. I actully feel most classes are pretty well balanced and useful in thier own element, like I said before its hard making an accurate tier.

Quarian engineer might be umped up at a later date, as it is now she stays where is is though.

If more ppl feel like the quarian engineer should be bumped up please post your argument for it =)

[sy7ar]

I thought, fine at least Drell Vanguard will be in tier B, but well, apparently you are doing it wrong. 
I'll leave this here. Only 2 missiles used during wave 10 objective waves, and it's not a small map like glaciers or gliteched map like ghost or hydra with 2 nades per boxes, still beast. Better than human guard in some cases. Should be tier A, both of them. 

[DarkerCompanion]

I believe that Human Engineer and Human Sentinel should be moved up, especially the Sentinel.

Engineer:
- Knows Overload, which is an incredible power at face value. Excellent damage dealing on all shields, great on Geth. A very good disabler, especially with neural shock. Disgusting for tech bursts while mixing it up with shield drainers or anyone with disruptor ammo.
- Incinerate makes the Engineer more of a Sentinel than the human sentinels, since he/she can deal with both shields AND armor. Easy to spam for Fire Explosions as well. The DoT works great for weakening reaper armor units, and the burn effect is good on Cerberus.
- Combat Drone is excellent as an immediate need distraction; less durable or attractive than Decoy, but more emergency use. Amazing for killing guardians. Great for slowing the approach of Atlas/Prime enemies, as they will turn around every time to kill it. I don't even put it above level 3. Some swear by its power as a level 6 ability, but its great at level 1.

You say that the Engineer is completely replaced by the Geth Engineer, but this is not true at all, because they only share one thing in common, which is Overload. The Geth Engi can't trigger any of his own bursts, and his turret is a slow-setup distractor rather than a fast one like decoy. The GE IS better, I admit this, but they play different roles. The Human Engineer is much more durable than the Geth Engineer, since the GE runs Hunter mode all day to get the added Overload damage. He also is very poor at dealing damage to armor, and has no debuffs without Incinerate. The HE is the most offense oriented Engineer, while the GE does the most Overload damage, but don't confuse the two. Besides, just because the GE is better than the HE does not mean that the HE immediately becomes bad.

Human Sentinel:
I find it hard to believe that this class is listed on par with the human adept. The only reason I can imagine this is so is because the Asari Adept can do the same biotic combo, but has Stasis as well. Well, the way I see it, the Human Sent can do the same biotic combo but tank instead of Stasis. Many AA users don't even use Stasis anyway. The human sentinel is a highly valuable Gold level class, easily running first place consistently on all enemies, but especially viable on Reapers. The only argument I can see as to why this is D tier is because "The Asari Adept does it better", but that does not in principle make the HS bad. And as I pointed out, it offers an alternative; you can run the AA as a Warp/Thrower with Stasis, and you can run the HS as a Warp/Thrower with Tech Armor spec'd for reduced cooldown. Both highly viable options.

It took me a long time to consider Tech Armor a viable ability, but it really can be Tech Armor, if spec'd correctly, offers you the following bargain: Trade 30% cooldown for 30% damage reduction. This is the same as running a 170% weapon, which is NOT THAT BAD. Since the AA is frequently run with tanked fitness, this makes the HS even more tankish in comparison. In my experience playing gold watching other players, and using one myself, I think the HS is one of the best classes in the game, a variation upon the theme which the AA perfects so well. Is AA better? I think so. Is HS bad? Absolutely not. Its easily B tier.

Final Thoughts:
I would move the Human Engineer up to rank C, and the Human Sentinel up to rank B. That the Turian Sentinel is a class that can neither biotic explode like the HS or mix tech powers the way the HE can, yet is placed so much higher. And before you mention Tech Armor, remember, he suffers the same cooldown reduction that the HS does. The Turian is basically a Human Engineer who got a biotic armor debuff rather than a tech armor debuff, and traded a drone for tech armor. I honestly thing the TS doesn't deserve to be B tier, but rather than focus on that, I will recount that Human Engineers seem to perform better in most situations than Turian Sentinels. Meanwhile, and I don't think I need to reiterate this enough, the Human Sentinel is easily one of the best classes in the game, and a better solo-biotic exploder than the Justicar which you have placed so high on the list.

Modifié par DarkerCompanion, 26 avril 2012 - 10:28 .

[fluffmoresheep]

^ agreed with all of that.
Human Sent should be B.
Human Engi and Turian Sent should be C.

[DarkerCompanion]

Lopper128 wrote...
Turian soldier is now high E

Human soldier is low E

Hmm, I also have to call this.

First off; Concussive Shot is a VERY powerful skill in the right hands. Incredible spam/disabler potential, and does reasonable damage, especially with the Shredder upgrade. So I'm not even sure if E is the right rank.

What I am contesting is that the Human Soldier is worse than the Turian. I mentioned Concussive Shot because it is an equal factor between the two.

First: Adrenaline Rush offers up to a 70% damage increase, while Marksman offers up to 70% fire rate bonus, with the possible upgrade of increased Headshot damage. This seems to favor Marksman, but a 70% fire rate bonus is not that powerful on many weapons; Snipers in particular gain little from this. You also have to maintain headshots to get the increased damage.

Second: Adrenaline Rush can be used as an instant reload. This solidifies its "better with snipers" aspect over Marksman, but also is excellent with other slow reload weapons.

Third: The incredible tankish bonus of Adrenaline Rush. Spec'd right, you get double shields for the duration, and 25% damage reduction. This provides for the Human, functionally, ~3000 health vs the Turians 2100ish, while the Turian cannot roll. The Human CAN roll, and can also use AR to refill half of his shields in a pinch, which is incredibly useful.

Fourth: Frag Grenade, if you take the lower option, can provide a 40% against organics to the Turian's 20% against all Proxy Mine spec. Frag Grenage loses out on Atlases and Primes, while Frag wins on Reapers, hands down. Frag Grenade is also a great damage dealer, while Proxy Mine is alright, which leads me to the most important . . .

Five: Marksman is counter-intuitive to power use. Two reasons: Marksman cannot be taken for bonus power, disabling both Concussive Shot and Proxy Mine for its lengthy 10 second duration to AR's 6.8 second. Normally duration is a bonus on powers like this, but the moment you use it, you have to wait 10 seconds plus cooldown to spam another power. Adrenaline Rush is short enough that you are not without access to Concussive Shot for TOO long, AND you can use Grenades during. Spec'd right, you could use a Grenade, one Concussive Shot, and continue shooting for the duration, while the Turian can only shoot.

Honestly, whether the Human Soldier moves up a rank or not, all I can say is that it is absolutely better than the Turian Soldier. Really, I have to contest that the Human Soldier is below both the Krogans as well. Especially the Soldier.

Modifié par DarkerCompanion, 26 avril 2012 - 10:55 .