1189 réponses à ce sujet

[Grimskull89]

GBGriffin wrote...

Also, my suggestions for relevant info to edit into the OP:

At the absolute minimum, if you decide to keep on purusing this and not shut down this thread, then add these direct quotes:

KeilxKey wrote...

If it doesn't make the goal then we will donate the money to retake me3 new chairity "save point"

KeilxKey wrote...

WHO CARES IF IT IS WASTEFUL OR NOT!!!

KeilxKey wrote...

if your not a htl member please do not vote in our thread. we will post one later here. we don't want our own personal numbers to be skewed purely because of the influx of new members stuffing the ballot.

And remove this one until there is a better idea of what is going on and the "listening" and discussion has ended

KeilxKey wrote...

A Chip In will be created tomorrow morning as well based on whatever you guys decide.

This is only fair to the current and potential donors, I believe, as it would alert them that this is not as sound a cause as the first post still seemingly suggests.

I'd focus more on link to their website

this is them voting to scrap the idea or not..
www.holdtheline.com/threads/continuing-with-the-billboard-campaign-or-not-community-discussion.833/

this is the thread for the original poll (the same one that was copied here)
www.holdtheline.com/threads/urgent-billboard-campaign-poll-donation-related.796/

As well as just probably a link to their homepage and maybe a disclaimer about how their views are not reflective of the whole Retake Mass Effect 3 movement.

[KeilxKey]

there will be one created here as well. just hold your horses.

[DJBare]

hotdogbsg wrote...
Problem is, if we do that the poll will just be dismissed as BSN'ers skewing the vote.
Becasue the opinions of other ME fans isn't as important.

Why do I get the feeling some folk are just voting to watch the car wreck.

[FabricatedWookie]

hotdogbsg wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...
In this instance, take the advice of the OP. Yell louder, and vote...just on their forums

Problem is, if we do that the poll will just be dismissed as BSN'ers skewing the vote.

I have already argued that 1, I don't think it this sentiment is merely that of trolls and anti-enders. I think the conversation speaks for itself how the billboard can be used as a cudgel against the retake organizations, even those who choose not to affiliate with the holdtheline website will be affected, on that evidence alone this idea will probably be shelved.

[ReavousX]

So. Much. Irony.

Good luck with your billboard.

[GBGriffin]

hotdogbsg wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...
In this instance, take the advice of the OP. Yell louder, and vote...just on their forums

Problem is, if we do that the poll will just be dismissed as BSN'ers skewing the vote.

Becasue the opinions of other ME fans isn't as important.

But according to him , that's the way to win

You're right, though. I should clarify and say that I don't endorse picking a fight. If anything, vote accordingly.

[Grimskull89]

DJBare wrote...

hotdogbsg wrote...
Problem is, if we do that the poll will just be dismissed as BSN'ers skewing the vote.
Becasue the opinions of other ME fans isn't as important.

Why do I get the feeling some folk are just voting to watch the car wreck.

I am obstaining because I feel their views are not reflective of everyone in the RME3 movement and I do not agree with them at the moment.

The OP did make it clear he didn't want everyone to vote, I will honor his wish.

[GBGriffin]

KeilxKey wrote...

there will be one created here as well. just hold your horses.

Coming from someone who wanted to fund a $9,000 billboard to protest an unreleased product...I hope you understand my skepticism about you asking me to hold my horses.

Also, this:

KeilxKey wrote...


Yell loud enough and someone will eventually hear you. The ending dlc proved that. Now we just have to yell louder. 

 

[Silpheed58]

KeilxKey wrote...

If you think the bilboard won't have an effect, why bother putting it up. If you do think it will have an effect, then why should those concerned about the effect shut up?

Because you have already let you opinion be known, and when you repeat that same opinion it's become unconstructive and pointless. 

You just stated why a billboard should not go up....  

[KeilxKey]

whether we do this or not isn't up to me....

[GBGriffin]

Grimskull89 wrote...

I am obstaining because I feel their views are not reflective of everyone in the RME3 movement and I do not agree with them at the moment.

The OP did make it clear he didn't want everyone to vote, I will honor his wish.

In all honesty...were I less insulted, I'd take your approach.

However, the first post has not been edited with the crucial information I feel it should have, and the poll still remains. Why is there no mention of this HTL-only poll in the OP? If it means that much to them that they don't want BSN members voting in it, why leave the original and make no mention of this? And then, there's still the mention of the ChipIn link...which, to me, indictaes they still plan to start collecting donations while they are holding their HTL-only poll.

Why should I honor the wishes of the OP? Because he brought all of this on himself and then tried to stop it with an apology and, hilariously enough, a response crafted in the style of BioWare?

Modifié par GBGriffin, 10 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[GBGriffin]

KeilxKey wrote...

whether we do this or not isn't up to me....

KeilxKey wrote...


We're listenting to ALL OF YOUR concerns, and Micheal and me are discussing the best course to take with this. 

 

Sounds like it's up to you and Michael, based on your update. You may wish to clarify.

[KeilxKey]

clarify? sure. if you guys say no then we are most likely not going to do it..

[Grimskull89]

FabricatedWookie wrote...

Ahh Fabricated Wookie understands this idea may not be for everyone. Though you are not exactly a representative, you have voiced your opinions on HTL.

Take this information with you.

Jim as you know him, started this thread under the guise of the Retake Mass Effect 3 movement. This confused members of the movement, angered others. It also garnered the attention of those not affliated with the movement. There are proabably just as many that dislike the idea in this thread, that appreciate the idea. No matter their affliation with the ending is.

Jim eventually started letting details slip like this not officially affliated with the ofical Retake Mass Effect 3 movement and eventually let us know that this idea spawned from Michael over at www.holdtheline.com

Chaos eventually ensued because this idea does not go in line with the other courses of action that the Retake Mass 3 Movement has performed so far. That they are in a sense, good-hearted in nature much like the core of this movement. Chartiable causes are better, this is somewhat insulting. This is not good-hearted in nature.

People began to question Jim, and started to break quickly under pressure and really.. really let himself go. Like foaming at the mouth mad.

People in this thread feel these polls are biased, I am one of them. There is no refuse option, a no to all of the above. A new poll is an after thought, a confusing one at that... and seems like it should have been an option, though I have already voiced this to Michael in a thread he created elsewhere. He seems like a really reasonable man. Should have sent him, it is a shame people scared him off in the other thread he created. 

[GBGriffin]

 

KeilxKey wrote...

clarify? sure. if you guys say no then we are most likely not going to do it..

You guys as in the BSN, or you guys as in HTL members?

Also, "most likely"...that's not clarity That's BioWare clarity, not "yes, we'll do this" or "no, we won't do this" clarity.

KeilxKey wrote...

if your not a htl member please do not vote in our thread. we will post one later here. we don't want our own personal numbers to be skewed purely because of the influx of new members stuffing the ballot.

What about the ChipIn donation link. Still have plans to start it up and begin collecting donations while there is debate over this?

Modifié par GBGriffin, 10 avril 2012 - 11:15 .

[Bfler]

In my opinion it would be much better if you try to collect money and present it to EA. You know money is everything for them and maybe you can arrange a compromise if you collect enough.

[Grimskull89]

KeilxKey wrote...

clarify? sure. if you guys say no then we are most likely not going to do it..

The point of your poll is to gather data. If you cannot get enough people to support your cause, and it fails. What then? You have said you will hold the money and then donate to another cause. What if people cannot agree on a choice of charity? This can go on and on for ever...

You guys apparently have skipped a step within your own community and didn't get the ok from absolutely everyone.

I understand this is your idea, it might have to die. You must accept that. Because this thread has proven that this idea is not for everyone.

[GBGriffin]

Bfler wrote...

In my opinion it would be much better if you try to collect money and present it to EA. You know money is everything for them and maybe you can arrange a compromise if you collect enough.

They already considered this

KeilxKey wrote...

CavScout wrote...


Perhaps you should just raise the fund needed to pay off BW to make the ending you so desire....

 

In Neverland maybe. In the real world, no. 

 

Modifié par GBGriffin, 10 avril 2012 - 11:19 .

[Calbeb]

I was going to vote in their poll, but the tone of the conversation in there from Michael seems to say that the divisiveness of this is probably going to keep it from happening. I'll respect their wishes and let them vote amongst themselves.

[Aznable Char]

 Heading to bed soon so I'll recap the major points against this whole thing:

Snippets of why this is bad:

RECAP OF WHY THIS IS BAD :

1. INEFFICIENT . Why spend 9000 on a billboard when we can buy more MEDIA ATTENTION by buying 10,000 cupcakes or ice cream with 16 different flavours (just one example)

2. NOT UNIVERSAL . The big thing about helping the children charity and the cupcakes was that it was UNIVERSALLY POPULAR

3. SAME MISTAKES AS EA/BIOWARE IN NOT LISTENING TO NEGATIVE REACTIONS EVEN IF YOU THINK YOU'RE RIGHT .

4. OPPORTUNITY TO TURN BACK . BioWare did not get this chance since we didn't know how they were going to end it before they did . Please Please Please , you' guys are lucky people care enough to tell you that this is not a good idea .

5. DON'T COUNT THE SUPPORTERS OF THE IDEA COUNT THOSE AGAINST . there wasn't even an option in the poll to say this is a bad idea ! that's the same mistake BioWare made by STICKING TO THEIR ENDING

LIST OF SOME BILLBOARD-BIOWARE PARALLELS:

1. COUNTING SUPPORTERS INSTEAD OF THOSE AGAINST

2. PR SPIN OF 'YES WE'RE LISTENING BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT OFF THE TABLE'

3. THINKING THOSE AGAINST IT ARE JUST PRO-ENDERS AND NOT A SIGNIFICANT SAMPLE SIZE OF RETAKERS

4. 'WE WORKED SO HARD THEREFORE PLEASE ACCEPT OUR BILLBOARD' (replace the word Billboard with Ending)

5. PLANNED ONLY INTERNALLY WITHOUT SEEKING OUTSIDE DELIBERATION TO GAUGE UNIVERSAL APPROVAL

If Hudson said to you "We worked on this game for years , scouting out the various photos to photoshop into Tali , contacting EA , the various hurdles we had to jump through . We really put a lot of effort into this ending . We spent a lot of tiem on this . so to see it being shot down in mere seconds is quite disheartening"

Do you honestly think you'd suddenly like his endings ?

Please .. Please ... do you not see the inherent need to learn from BioWare's mistakes here ?

ON WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD IGNORE THE SUPPORTERS:

Yes , because those supporters will remain if we move on to a new initiative that garners more universal support

And I'll encourage everyone here to go vote on what you think should be done : http://www.holdtheli...discussion.833/ 

Modifié par Aznable Char, 10 avril 2012 - 11:22 .

[ReavousX]

Everyone remember the guy who filed an FTC complaint against Bioware? This idea isn't that bad, but he spoke to media as though he was part of various "movements" and it reflected upon them poorly. I believe this would do the same. Money for a billboard is a waste of resources, when billboards are some of the absolute worst ways to get a point across in the age of the internet.

One would assume that the "leaders" that have stepped forward for whatever faction this whole thing is about would look at past success, how we got EA/Bioware to develop FREE ENDING DLC, and realize that billboard money could be used in ways that have already been proven to be effective at getting the point across. In the end, different "movements" aside, we all fall under one big umbrella of "fans who didn't like the ending", so I hope those who are pulling the strings here take my post into consideration.

[FabricatedWookie]

Grimskull89 wrote...

FabricatedWookie wrote...

Ahh Fabricated Wookie understands this idea may not be for everyone. Though you are not exactly a representative, you have voiced your opinions on HTL.

Take this information with you.

Jim as you know him, started this thread under the guise of the Retake Mass Effect 3 movement. This confused members of the movement, angered others. It also garnered the attention of those not affliated with the movement. There are proabably just as many that dislike the idea in this thread, that appreciate the idea. No matter their affliation with the ending is.

Jim eventually started letting details slip like this not officially affliated with the ofical Retake Mass Effect 3 movement and eventually let us know that this idea spawned from Michael over at www.holdtheline.com

Chaos eventually ensued because this idea does not go in line with the other courses of action that the Retake Mass 3 Movement has performed so far. That they are in a sense, good-hearted in nature much like the core of this movement. Chartiable causes are better, this is somewhat insulting. This is not good-hearted in nature.

People began to question Jim, and started to break quickly under pressure and really.. really let himself go. Like foaming at the mouth mad.

People in this thread feel these polls are biased, I am one of them. There is no refuse option, a no to all of the above. A new poll is an after thought, a confusing one at that... and seems like it should have been an option, though I have already voiced this to Michael in a thread he created elsewhere. He seems like a really reasonable man. Should have sent him, it is a shame people scared him off in the other thread he created. 

Couple of things, can we agree that the retake idea started here? Holdtheline was just another place set up for retaker's to gather outside of BSN (especially to speak freely without the fear of banning because they were speaking badly about BW) and had a heavy dosage of communicating through civil discourse.

So in this, many members don't think about being officially retake or unofficially retake. being official is a creation of the Facebook/youtube/twitter group, for better are for worse. It doesn't really matter to me, I am a happy member of both. 

The thing i see here happening is that the billboard is seen as agressive, I have already talked to bsghotdog saying, imo, the cupcakes were fun and cheeky, but also a clear slap in the face to the company. There is no reason a billboard couldn't be cheeky. However, this doesn't really matter, the damage is done.

I think jim was invested in this idea. I think it probably hurt to hear the dislike of it, and in many ways this probably does serve as an odd parable to fan response to bioware.

If I can digress back to the official/unofficial thing. Holdtheline is not official because it is said to be more aggressive, however I believe that is a bit of mythos. I am on the facebook group, you can find angry posts there, and having 60,000 lieks alone will mean by sheer magnitude you will have more aggresive people (not necessarily by per capita). There are angry people here as well, and quick to judge. The point is, if you consider yourself a retaker you will always strive to remain calm, to make your arguments as civilly and best you can, regardless of what group you mingle with.

[GBGriffin]

Oh, and also:

KeilxKey wrote...

UPDATE 2:

Guys. I apoligize if have upset anyone. It's just that we've worked on this project for a month, and it's taken quite a effort to put this all together.

I also apoligize for some of my responses. I'm getting tired and a little cranky because of that.

We're listenting to ALL OF YOUR concerns, and Micheal and me are discussing the best course to take with this.

So sorry! I feel I've said some things I shouldn't have. I'll update you guys when I have further news.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why haven't my concerns been addressed? I think people considering donating need to be warned that there is both discussion and a poll on whether or not to do this.

Here they are again, in case you missed them


Also, my suggestions for relevant info to edit into the OP:

At the absolute minimum, if you decide to keep on purusing this and not shut down this thread, then add these direct quotes:

KeilxKey wrote...

If it doesn't make the goal then we will donate the money to retake me3 new chairity "save point"

KeilxKey wrote...

WHO CARES IF IT IS WASTEFUL OR NOT!!!

KeilxKey wrote...

if your not a htl member please do not vote in our thread. we will post one later here. we don't want our own personal numbers to be skewed purely because of the influx of new members stuffing the ballot.

And remove this one until there is a better idea of what is going on and the "listening" and discussion has ended

KeilxKey wrote...

A Chip In will be created tomorrow morning as well based on whatever you guys decide.

This is only fair to the current and potential donors, I believe, as it would alert them that this is not as sound a cause as the first post still seemingly suggests.

[ReavousX]

Aznable Char wrote...

 Heading to bed soon so I'll recap the major points against this whole thing:

Snippets of why this is bad:

RECAP OF WHY THIS IS BAD :

1. INEFFICIENT . Why spend 9000 on a billboard when we can buy more MEDIA ATTENTION by buying 10,000 cupcakes or ice cream with 16 different flavours (just one example)

2. NOT UNIVERSAL . The big thing about helping the children charity and the cupcakes was that it was UNIVERSALLY POPULAR

3. SAME MISTAKES AS EA/BIOWARE IN NOT LISTENING TO NEGATIVE REACTIONS EVEN IF YOU THINK YOU'RE RIGHT .

4. OPPORTUNITY TO TURN BACK . BioWare did not get this chance since we didn't know how they were going to end it before they did . Please Please Please , you' guys are lucky people care enough to tell you that this is not a good idea .

5. DON'T COUNT THE SUPPORTERS OF THE IDEA COUNT THOSE AGAINST . there wasn't even an option in the poll to say this is a bad idea ! that's the same mistake BioWare made by STICKING TO THEIR ENDING

LIST OF SOME BILLBOARD-BIOWARE PARALLELS:

1. COUNTING SUPPORTERS INSTEAD OF THOSE AGAINST

2. PR SPIN OF 'YES WE'RE LISTENING BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT OFF THE TABLE'

3. THINKING THOSE AGAINST IT ARE JUST PRO-ENDERS AND NOT A SIGNIFICANT SAMPLE SIZE OF RETAKERS

4. 'WE WORKED SO HARD THEREFORE PLEASE ACCEPT OUR BILLBOARD' (replace the word Billboard with Ending)

5. PLANNED ONLY INTERNALLY WITHOUT SEEKING OUTSIDE DELIBERATION TO GAUGE UNIVERSAL APPROVAL

If Hudson said to you "We worked on this game for years , scouting out the various photos to photoshop into Tali , contacting EA , the various hurdles we had to jump through . We really put a lot of effort into this ending . We spent a lot of tiem on this . so to see it being shot down in mere seconds is quite disheartening"

Do you honestly think you'd suddenly like his endings ?

Please .. Please ... do you not see the inherent need to learn from BioWare's mistakes here ?

ON WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD IGNORE THE SUPPORTERS:

Yes , because those supporters will remain if we move on to a new initiative that garners more universal support

And I'll encourage everyone here to go vote on what you think should be done : http://www.holdtheli...discussion.833/ 

You know, looking at this, this whole billboard mess is too good not to be some sort of satire.

[GBGriffin]

ReavousX wrote...


You know, looking at this, this whole billboard mess is too good not to be some sort of satire.

Haha, let the speculation begin!