94 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

Brunopolis wrote...

BG2 wasn't too bad until you go to the level 9 mage spells which happened VERY late game.  Anyways the last D&D game Bioware made was NWN 2 so compare DAO to that game which is far more accurate. 

NWN 2 was Obsidian, not Bioware.

Regardless, I don't really mind the power level of mages in DA.  I just wish there was one more mage companion, for variety's sake.  Maybe in an expansion...?  Ah, if we were so lucky.

[magor1988x]

Roxlimn wrote...

magor1988x:

You're completely off-base there. A Rogue can dabble in both Archery and Dual Wield and be a potent force on the battlefield. In fact, you can do this with Leliana (not even a main) while being a stun-tower buffing bard and still be magnificently potent. All you really need out of the DW section is Momentum, after all, and your go-to powers in Archery are similarly focused.

A Warrior can have both Two Handed and Shield powers and switch according to need. Their normal attacks are so powerful, in fact, that you can sometimes totally switch out of a style even if you don't have any talents associated with another style and still totally own.

People somehow make this mistake that just because the Mage animations are flashier, that the class itself is more powerful. Mages in DAO are less powerful than Mages in BG, while Warriors in DAO are more powerful than Warriors in BG. On the whole, DAO is a better balanced game, really.

The one thing a Mage can do that a Warrior absolutely cannot do in DAO is win a battle without even taking an attack. That said, they ARE rather vulnerable to Crushing Prison and Curse of Mortality, whereas you can spec an entire Warrior party to be essentially magic-proof. NO need to neutralize the Mage at all!

And how many full branches can you go into?

Way less then my Warrior or went full 2 handed, went full Warrior, Beserker, and Champion.

Or my rogue who went Dual Wield, Assassination, Duelist, with the last few in Rogue.

As a Mage I can put in Primal, Spirit, Entropy, Shapeshifter, hell even creation and crush my opponents.

Putting all your points in Primal is pretty boring as they're all similar spells just different animations. Not much difference between Fire, Ice, Nature, and Electric other then the paint job and one or two small talents.

[Tianwyn]

Sidney wrote...

You needed a variety of breach, dispel magic, pierce magic and so on and so on because each one ripped away one layer of some stupid protection cocoon the liches were in. Other than that mages didn't need a huge variety of spells.

As I said before, I rarely used de-buffing spells, and instead focused on firepower in BG2.  You don't *have* to use those spells.

Even at the end of the game I was using Magic Missile as my main offensive spell because anything else took so flippin' long to cast that my monk and minsc had killed everything in the room before I broke a spell off.

I'm assuming your mage didn't use the Robe of Vecna or the amulet you can get from Aran Linvail.  With those, my casting time is practically nonexistent.

The BG, and by extension D&D, spell system was awful. The myrid of protection and dispelling spells, the long, long casting times and the pointless memorizations meant that Edwin was really just along for the ride.

A matter of opinion, and a playing style that isn't necessarily used by other players.

[Kaosgirl]

Shannara13 wrote...

DaeFaron wrote...

JonDwarf wrote...
I'd rather feel uber without mathematical formulations to justify my uberness which just makes it feel too much like - *rolls the di* - work

This is the reason I never touched a mage in Neverwinter Nights. Me and one of my brothers had a level 20 sorcerer duel, pretty much the exact same setup spell-wise I believe. But he knew the stats to modify his spells better and always destroyed me.

The amount of numbers can get confusing if you don't really care to min-max. (Increasing your intelligence will up your fireballs damage by 5d7, while a high wisdom modifier will help your spell penetration by 2d6.) Stuff like that.

You are really confused. There are no stats in NWN that increase damage or spell penetration. If you are Wizard the only thing that affects you spells is Intelligence and it just affects affects how many spells you can memorize and the DC on your spells. Wisdom has no affect on Arcane spells.

Wisdom affects your saving throw modifier for Will saves, which will negate (or at least mitigate) a fair number of auto-win spells if you make it.

[ChickenDownUnder]

I miss Time Stop, it was like the pause button without having to press pause.

[Roxlimn]

magor1988x:

You're contradicting yourself, and making a fair amount of errors as well.

1. The Primal spells are NOT all the same, and you probably can't tell because you haven't done an Elementalist. You do not know what the hell you are talking about.

Cold spells are especially good against fire-weak foes and have secondary slowing or immobilizing functions. Generally, they do the least damage.

Fire spells have DOT, Fireball does knockdown, and they're worthless against fire-immune foes (no fire-vulnerable foes as far as I can tell). Inferno and Flame Blast do the most damage in their respective class.

Lightning Spells have the least resistances to overcome - they generally affect nearly everything. They also drain stamina, and can combine with either Fire or Cold spells (which are mutually incompatible).

Earth spells are not about damage at all. Rock Armor increases defense, Earthquake is movement control (with no damage), and Stone Fist is about the knock back and knock down. Petrify is about immobilization.

You can take spells from any of the 4 schools and still crush your enemies, but you will generally be less powerful than a Mage who specializes in one or two synergistic lines.  Likewise, you CAN crush your enemies while spreading your talents among a number of Warrior or Rogue options, but you will also be slightly less powerful than a dedicated Warrior at the specialization in question.

2. Both Warrior and Mage get the same amount of points to spend on Spells and Talents. Neither one has an advantage in finishing lines. You can confirm this for yourself - it's even in the Manual - both Warrior and Mages get one talent or skill point per level, no more no less.

If you really want to talk about these things, I highly suggest getting the Respec Mod and then testing out various builds on a set of preselected battles (from saves, of course). It's very enlightening.

I repeat: you are factually wrong. Mages and Warriors get the exact same number of points. This is in the manual and can be confirmed in-game. You cannot complete more branches with a Mage than a Warrior unless you're jacking the equation in favor of the Mage somehow.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 06 décembre 2009 - 03:43 .

[Shannara13]

Kaosgirl wrote...

Shannara13 wrote...

DaeFaron wrote...

JonDwarf wrote...
I'd rather feel uber without mathematical formulations to justify my uberness which just makes it feel too much like - *rolls the di* - work

This is the reason I never touched a mage in Neverwinter Nights. Me and one of my brothers had a level 20 sorcerer duel, pretty much the exact same setup spell-wise I believe. But he knew the stats to modify his spells better and always destroyed me.

The amount of numbers can get confusing if you don't really care to min-max. (Increasing your intelligence will up your fireballs damage by 5d7, while a high wisdom modifier will help your spell penetration by 2d6.) Stuff like that.

You are really confused. There are no stats in NWN that increase damage or spell penetration. If you are Wizard the only thing that affects you spells is Intelligence and it just affects affects how many spells you can memorize and the DC on your spells. Wisdom has no affect on Arcane spells.

Wisdom affects your saving throw modifier for Will saves, which will negate (or at least mitigate) a fair number of auto-win spells if you make it.

Your not honestly suggesting that you should stack Wisdom on a Sorcerer or Wizard for the sake of WIll Saves are you?!?

[lbgsloan]

The problem with DA mages is that there's nothing they can't do. Damage, crowd control, healing, support, hell even TANKING with Arcane Warrior. Oh, and they use MP instead of spell per day. At least mages in D&D are pretty much just deal damage and can protect themselves. DA really should have had a fourth class (Druid or something) and moved all the healing and support spells to them. Then taken Arcane Warrior and throw it off a bridge. Mages going toe to toe with warriors in melee combat, and winning? Really? Someone thought this was a good idea?

[Deception_2112]

IMO they should've taken the entire healing class and given it to the Templars at the very least...



When i played illegitly, ie adding every spell vs adding every talent, the mage's variety just came out on top.



You just had so many ways to kill an enemy, if one method didn't work, another one was bound to.



With Warriors and Rogues its rather different, no matter how many talents you try to add, their method of killing is pretty much the same.



I'll stick with my mage... I only played through the other origin classes then stopped...Mages esp Arcane Warrior are what i love best in RPG...



I get the feeling if there were more classes in DA, a lot of you wouldn't be talking about how OP mages are...

[lbgsloan]

Of course. Mages in DA are jack-of-all-trades, masters of EVERYTHING. This is kind of a problem, as I'd like to use other party members once in a while but the mages just do everything better.

[Cat Lance]

purplesunset wrote...

Dragon Age was intended to be a low-magic game, and even the lore supports this "low-magic"  goal.

Yet, ironically, people find mages to be too powerful.

In the following, someone thinks that mages being powerful is a direct consequence of DA being a low-magic world.

Click here

Now, now, I would note that Mr. Gaider said that magic is RARE, but extremely powerful. It's always been meant as the sort of thing where, mages are sort of legendary and few, but that their power is rather godlike and frightening, especially to a regular pleb.

[Roxlimn]

Actually, Mages don't do spell resistance better - and early on, they're REALLY squishy, even Arcane Warriors. My Warrior Hero was way tougher than my Arcane Hero, and I played an Arcane Warrior.



The Warrior Heroes also generally require less support from potions - they do fine with autoattack. Mage Heroes generally rely on potions to do fantastic things, so you burn through all manner of potions really fast.



Magic in DAO isn't nearly as powerful as magic in D&D pre-4th ed, and it's definitely not overpowered.



In fact, you can't do everything as a Mage, since you only have a limited number of points to spend, and you have to pick specializations. You're either casting a spell or attacking with a blade. The Mage class itself allows you to do a bunch of things, and you can run the game with 3 Mages and whatever other class you want, but by the same token, you can also run the game with a Warrior Hero, Alistair, Shale, and Leliana, and it's also pretty easy, overall.

[Kaosgirl]

Shannara13 wrote...

Kaosgirl wrote...

Shannara13 wrote...

DaeFaron wrote...

JonDwarf wrote...
I'd rather feel uber without mathematical formulations to justify my uberness which just makes it feel too much like - *rolls the di* - work

This is the reason I never touched a mage in Neverwinter Nights. Me and one of my brothers had a level 20 sorcerer duel, pretty much the exact same setup spell-wise I believe. But he knew the stats to modify his spells better and always destroyed me.

The amount of numbers can get confusing if you don't really care to min-max. (Increasing your intelligence will up your fireballs damage by 5d7, while a high wisdom modifier will help your spell penetration by 2d6.) Stuff like that.

You are really confused. There are no stats in NWN that increase damage or spell penetration. If you are Wizard the only thing that affects you spells is Intelligence and it just affects affects how many spells you can memorize and the DC on your spells. Wisdom has no affect on Arcane spells.

Wisdom affects your saving throw modifier for Will saves, which will negate (or at least mitigate) a fair number of auto-win spells if you make it.

Your not honestly suggesting that you should stack Wisdom on a Sorcerer or Wizard for the sake of WIll Saves are you?!?

I'm saying there's an argument for choosing it as a secondary stat, if one is creating a character explicitly for a duel.  For more general play, Con and/or Dex are probably better choices.

Though I'd actually argue Con for the duel as well, both for the increased HP and it's utility in Fortitude saves (also prone to being invoked by "save or die" spells.)

Of course, under a points-buy system one could just stack everything into Int or Cha (as relevant) and leave everything else at default.  But cost-scaling makes me doubt that's the best way to do things.

[magor1988x]

In comparison to rogues and warriors however mages can spread their points much more effectively.



In order to be effective in the use of certain weapons for R's and W's a player has to decide which branch to specialize in. Archery, Duel Wielding, 2 handed weapons, Sword and Board, etc.



You can spread your points between two weapons trees, but I find that to be a monumental waste of capabilities. The R and W classes work much more effectively and powerfully when specialized down one weapons path and maximize towards one goal.



Yes you can split points between Archery and Dual Wielding, but what you end up with is a substandard archer and substandard melee DPS.



A mage can put points in Primal, Spirit, and Entropy and maintain incredible versatility and instead of lowering DPS maximizes it!



(Affliction and Vulnerability boost Primal damage yet are found in the entropy tree. Crushing Prison in the Spirit section works remarkably well with Petrify or Frost Spells. Spirit spells and Fire spells work well in tandam with the fourth row of Creation spells, for example Fire+Grease being the main example.)



A half DW half 2h or Sword and Board Warrior is not effective at either. A part Spirit, part Primal, part Entropy mage is awesomely powerful.



This doesn't make mages overpowered. A full 2 handed Warrior with Beserking can put out ridiculously high damage with very high survivability, as can a full Dual Wielding Rogue or Warrior or Archer. It simply makes mages unique in the fact that they can spread their points throughout every tree and instead of seeing a loss from it, see a major gain.

[Default137]

There is still not enough talk in this thread about Wild Mages, and why DA:O needs them.

[Sidney]

Roxlimn wrote...

In fact, you can't do everything as a Mage, since you only have a limited number of points to spend, and you have to pick specializations. You're either casting a spell or attacking with a blade. The Mage class itself allows you to do a bunch of things, and you can run the game with 3 Mages and whatever other class you want, but by the same token, you can also run the game with a Warrior Hero, Alistair, Shale, and Leliana, and it's also pretty easy, overall.

I finished with only one mage in first play second time I've got 2. The latter is much easier but most of that is built around my killing mage who has a much better spells build than Morrigan did my first time through. Having inferno for artillery and then sleep/waking nightmare for crowd control and force field and crushing prison for boss control make all the difference. Spell selection can really change how "hard" the game feels.

[soteria]

Seraphael wrote...

soteria wrote...

Seraphael wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

I really wished Bioware used/stole the spell system from Baldur's Gate series.

DA:O spell system is so dumbed down.

Oh I agree completly, at least if not for the "low-magic world" thing. Mage battles in BG2 was more fun than combat in just about any other game as far as I'm concerned. So many layers to it.

Layers?  I just cast breach, pierce magic, lower reasistance, greater malison, and disintegrate.  Then, I found out I could use Keldorn's dispel magic and a couple melee swings to do the same thing with less effort.  Or just run a stealthed rogue in with a cloak of non-detection to backstab the mage and end the fight before it began.  Or heck, just stay out of sight until the spells expire, and then pelt the mage with ranged attacks. 

Plus, the high level spells were bad.  Not ineffective, just bad--too many "save or else" spells.  I don't understand the glamorization of that spell system...

You're oversimplyfying it. There were protection spells, anti-protection spells and spells which protected against anti-protection spells. Which other game has that complex spellcasting? In DA:O it's more the luck of the draw, who casts first shall win kind of deal. So yeah, LAYERS.

No, I'm not, you're making it more complicated.  What I said will work (in an unmodded game) on any mage.  Dispel magic from an Inquisitor works even better, without having to bother thinking about whether you need to cast Breach or Pierce Magic or that other one first.  I really don't care about "LAYERS" when in practice dealing with mages was pretty faceroll, again unless you made it more complicated than it was.

[Chragen]

I guess I'm in the minority but I tend to avoid using any kind of AoE crowd control spell in DA:O.

My current play through is with me as a dagger/dagger rogue, Alistair as tank and Morrigan and Wynne. I got both Morrigan and Wynne setup as part healer part damage dealer, but they only use single target spells.

If there's one thing I've noticed it's just how easy the game gets when you use taunt and you got decent healing. So far I've used around 6 potions in total.



So if I was even going to consider using spells like storm of the century, cone of cold/shatter, sleep, ect. The game would be so easy that it's just not fun anymore.

[Khumak]

Zealuu wrote...

Yet your precious BGI/II mages couldn't drink a potion during combat to magically re-memorize all the spells they'd already cast and otherwise would have to wait until after the next bout of resting to use again.

Mages in BGII didn't need potions for that.  There were several spell combos in BGII that allowed for unlimited spells without any cheating.  In fact the cheesiest methods allowed you to basically cast almost every spell in your spell book every round while still ending each round with all of your spells still memorized.  And all of this while time was stopped so your enemy couldn't even take any actions...

If you really wanted to break out the cheese you could summon projections to do the same, resulting in unloading your entire spell book multiple times per round while still keeping all spells memorized.  This also did not require using any potions, items, scrolls, or any other consumables.  Mages truely were gods in BGII starting from the time they got their first level 9 spell.  They reached demi god status with their first level 7 spell.

There were a couple of interesting difficulty mods that either had enemy mages using highly scripted and extremely annoying approximations of some of these spell combos against you, or just plain disabled the most abusive spells.

If you really want to play an RPG that kicks your ass, fire up BGII and play with either the Tactics mod or Improved Anvil.  Bring some KY because you WILL get violated...

Modifié par Khumak, 22 décembre 2009 - 01:18 .

[blazin130791]

the dragon age forums are turning into BG forums...