121 réponses à ce sujet

[DJoker35]

Infiniteone2 wrote...

Maybe if I was sitting in my college level creative writing class 8 years ago saying this.  But when your work is going out to possibly millions, you are getting paid, and showing off what you are all about and your work is about, and the first impression is always the most important one, nope, not rude.

Guess it just shows that the video game industry still can't land writers that actually care about their work.  Maybe in a couple years when some stigmas are hopefully gone.../hope.

And the first impression you got to make was to tell someone who worked for years on this that they are pathetic.

I suppose I was raised differently. Forum or not, anonymity or not, it just wouldn't have occurred to me to tell someone that they or their work is pathetic because of a mistake made in a collaborative project. Not a complete change, mind you, or an attempt to rewrite what has come before...but a mistake. Something that the author was quite willing to address and admit as a mistake made by the team. And a mistake that is inconsistent with the quality of the writing both in the game and in the novels.

I would say that given the amazing story of this game, the fine quality of writing in the novels, and the presence on the forum to answer questions regardless of being called "pathetic", that Mr. Gaider is obviously someone who cares very much about his work.


Guess when someone takes the time to admit an error, especially the author, it just doesn't cross my mind to then tell them they're pathetic. Quite frankly, I would find that both shameful and embarrassing to do so.

Modifié par DJoker35, 06 décembre 2009 - 12:31 .

[Setz69]

Infiniteone2 wrote...

Mistakes in lore lead people to start thinking "LOLlore" its definitely not something you should be taking lightly and saying something like "My bad" too, you should be trying to hotfix-patch it asap and not stop jumping down people's throats until is done and fixed. As far as I'm concerned if you make one little mistake as a writer, especially having to do with a major character then you have failed utterly, that was your only job, your only one job, and you failed it. Its your job to go over 50,000 lines of text, I don't care if you got to chug coffee and only get 3 hours of sleep a day, get it right, ITS YOUR ONLY ONE MAJOR CONCERN and you are going to fail it? Pathetic. I'd be firing writers left and right until I got a handful of people that actually pay attention to details and aren't lazy and will put in the time to make sure its consistent and right.

Whenever I start seeing major changes from books to game, or even early game to late game/expansion, or inconsistencies I then stop caring for the lore all together. I'll skip past every piece of dialog and won't read anything in my codex ever again, why should I? You can't even stick to whats already been established, you wanna change it cause you think it'd be neater? (ala new star trek movie, don't get me started on that abomination)

Jumping down peoples throats and firing writers left and write over a parentage mix-up. Really? This is probably why you'd never make it as a writer for a big project, because apparently you lack managing skills and people skills. You can't just snap on people and fire them for making a mistake. Especially such a small one. This is how I can tell you've been on the internet to long. Real people don't snap over small stuff like this.

[elijah_kaine]

Infiniteone2 wrote...

Mistakes in lore lead people to start thinking "LOLlore" its definitely not something you should be taking lightly and saying something like "My bad" too, you should be trying to hotfix-patch it asap and not stop jumping down people's throats until is done and fixed. As far as I'm concerned if you make one little mistake as a writer, especially having to do with a major character then you have failed utterly, that was your only job, your only one job, and you failed it. Its your job to go over 50,000 lines of text, I don't care if you got to chug coffee and only get 3 hours of sleep a day, get it right, ITS YOUR ONLY ONE MAJOR CONCERN and you are going to fail it? Pathetic. I'd be firing writers left and right until I got a handful of people that actually pay attention to details and aren't lazy and will put in the time to make sure its consistent and right.

Whenever I start seeing major changes from books to game, or even early game to late game/expansion, or inconsistencies I then stop caring for the lore all together. I'll skip past every piece of dialog and won't read anything in my codex ever again, why should I? You can't even stick to whats already been established, you wanna change it cause you think it'd be neater? (ala new star trek movie, don't get me started on that abomination)

This is why we can't have nice things. Things being polite and informative conversations with the devs, where they are happy to get our questions and not dreading it.

[fluffyamoeba]

seen how many editions LotR got through so far?

[Curlain]

Infiniteone2 wrote...

Mistakes in lore lead people to start thinking "LOLlore" its definitely not something you should be taking lightly and saying something like "My bad" too, you should be trying to hotfix-patch it asap and not stop jumping down people's throats until is done and fixed. As far as I'm concerned if you make one little mistake as a writer, especially having to do with a major character then you have failed utterly, that was your only job, your only one job, and you failed it. Its your job to go over 50,000 lines of text, I don't care if you got to chug coffee and only get 3 hours of sleep a day, get it right, ITS YOUR ONLY ONE MAJOR CONCERN and you are going to fail it? Pathetic. I'd be firing writers left and right until I got a handful of people that actually pay attention to details and aren't lazy and will put in the time to make sure its consistent and right.

Whenever I start seeing major changes from books to game, or even early game to late game/expansion, or inconsistencies I then stop caring for the lore all together. I'll skip past every piece of dialog and won't read anything in my codex ever again, why should I? You can't even stick to whats already been established, you wanna change it cause you think it'd be neater? (ala new star trek movie, don't get me started on that abomination)

That's just no way to speak to anyone, who are you to tell anyone this, DA is a massive protect that clearly has evolved some during development, some older ideas change and sometimes things stated early by one person can be unnoticed later.  So what, it's not like Duncan was once Diana or something (thought that could be interesting ).

Your whole tone is incredibly offensive, and your statements are not critical but just flat out rude, just because you are a member on this forum doesn't give you the right to trash anyone like this.  It's the one thing I hate about internet forums sometimes, people use the annoymity to act like complete asses, knowling full well acting like this in real life would legitmately get you smacked in the mouth

[snow0815]

David Gaider wrote...

snow0815 wrote...
Considering that David Gaider wrote both novels and is lead writer of the game, how come there are some odd inconsistencies between the 2 novels and the game?

Noticed a few things but the only one that comes to mind right now is Duncan's parents, in "The Calling" his father is Fereldan and I think his mother was Antivan, in the game it is completely different. I hope I can remember some other things, read a few books since and memory is vague.

Saw the Duncan discrepancy, did you? Not all the writers work on the same things, and there's a lot of text to go through -- we're not going to remember it all, or be aware of what someone else may have wrote. In this case, even though I looked I didn't realize there was something written that mentioned Duncan's parentage (in this case it was a piece of marketing that was done for the old website). Definitely my bad on that one.

Sometimes things have changed, but over the six years of changes you'll get some legacy info that slips in even though it is no longer correct. And then there are things in the codex which are deliberately not true -- the majority of the lore- and character-related info is relayed as opinions and/or info relayed from the character's point of view.

Good job on the novels btw, found them very nicely written and far superior to your typical game franchise novels.

Glad you liked them.

Thanks for replying, was hoping you might spot the thread. Any plans yet for more DA novels or will we have to wait for DA2 to see another written sequel (or possibly prequel)? Was a little surprised these two were published in such quick succession.

p.s. Another cosmetic difference: dragonbone in the books is your typical aged-bone yellowish, in the game it's a ruddy black

[DJoker35]

snow0815 wrote...
Thanks for replying, was hoping you might spot the thread. Any plans yet for more DA novels or will we have to wait for DA2 to see another written sequel (or possibly prequel)? Was a little surprised these two were published in such quick succession.

I'd like to know as well. Any plans for more DA books? Or more books by you in a different setting?

Any plans on hitting the bookstore signing circuit?

[Dark83]

Personally, with regards to Lore, I always ignore the secondary media. DA:O is lore consistant within itself, and that's all the matters and is relevant as far as DA:O is concerned.

[Bostondreamer73]

Infiniteone2 wrote...

 You can't even stick to whats already been established, you wanna change it cause you think it'd be neater? (ala new star trek movie, don't get me started on that abomination)

You are not seriously referring to Star Trek in ANY incarnation as one which had little problem with lore. Or have you forgotten the rather odd growths that suddenly appeared on Kilngon heads and had to be explained not one, not two, not three, but FOUR series after they appeared. And I have yet to understand where the Romulan browridges came from...
And the most recent movie...it was a reboot, dude. Of course things will change.

[Servant of Nature]

Dark83 wrote...

Personally, with regards to Lore, I always ignore the secondary media. DA:O is lore consistant within itself, and that's all the matters and is relevant as far as DA:O is concerned.

Normally I would agree with this, but David wrote both books and was the lead writer for Dragon Age... kind of hard to ignore that.  So far The Stolen Throne tied quite seemlessly with the game,  The Calling is tied in slightly with Warden's Keep if you talk to Levi about it.  The thing with Duncan's parents is off but I don't see that as a particularly big deal.

[Alternategray]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

You all realize that Infiniteone2 is a troll, yes?

While the tip is appreciated, I think the general gist of the responses is: it doesn't *matter* what the intention of "infinite" is, whether he/she is being serious, facetious, or just baiting people- acting like a total ass in "public" is all too common behavior nowadays, and while it's almost encouraged in some forums/games (WoW, anyone?), it's not appreciated here.

I'm not sure if being an **** is banworthy on these forums, but I'd hope this is the last we see of infinite. Personal insults directed at devs is unnecessary in my opinion.

[DJoker35]

Alternategray wrote...

While the tip is appreciated, I think the general gist of the responses is: it doesn't *matter* what the intention of "infinite" is, whether he/she is being serious, facetious, or just baiting people- acting like a total ass in "public" is all too common behavior nowadays, and while it's almost encouraged in some forums/games (WoW, anyone?), it's not appreciated here.

I'm not sure if being an **** is banworthy on these forums, but I'd hope this is the last we see of infinite. Personal insults directed at devs is unnecessary in my opinion.

Agreed 100%. It was so underserving and uncalled for, and in fact downright hurtful, that a response was necessary, troll or not.

[Silensfurtim]

i really need to get these books. we dont have it yet here in the philippines

[Infiniteone2]

Not a troll, I expect near perfection, because I know the problems slacking and being careless can lead to over the course of time, and I don't expect most people to understand this because I train hundreds of people (you people) every year and they never "get it" or want to put in the effort, then they come back to me and ask whats wrong, I investigate their buisness, find several dozen things wrong, go over once again what we went through in training and they either die or make it.  Usually the ones that end up listening and making it are the ones with other peoples livelihood's in their hands (usually have a family).  It's not easy, but doing anything worthwhile never is.

Keep making mistakes like this on down the road and I guarantee you you will have many, many players thinking "lol lore" which is okay if this game isnt going anywhere, but I hope that's not the case as I enjoy it and it has potential.  People get into things more when they feel its being taken seriously, and their's not something shouting at them that the people behind the scenes are just going with the groove and saying things like "ohhhh you're right, heh heh my b dawg, shooot."

Modifié par Infiniteone2, 06 décembre 2009 - 05:22 .

[Chesta12345]

Humility is a virtue. Those who are willing to admit their mistakes, assuming it isn't something ueber serious like murder or some crap, should be exonerated. Mr. Gaider, I still love your books/game. Maybe I've just been listening to Leliana too much, though... =P



The sheer volume of writing that went into this game is quite mind-boggling so an occassional discreprancy seems almost expected.

[DJoker35]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

DJoker35 wrote...

Agreed 100%. It was so underserving and uncalled for, and in fact downright hurtful, that a response was necessary, troll or not.

I just see people making relatively long, and thought out posts.  Just letting your know that you're wasting your breath (so to speak) on him.

Absolutely understood. You're right. I guess maybe the responses are more for Mr. Gaider than anything, in a way.

[Leonhartx]

"there are things in the codex which are deliberately not true -- the majority of the lore- and character-related info is relayed as opinions and/or info relayed from the character's point of view."



How you guys continue calling infinite a Troll after the writer says that we're playing a game full of BS lore is beyond me.



Just because he's rude doesn't make his statements any less true. The writer gets paid to write a story... regardless of how big the story is, it's his JOB to make sure -everything- makes sense.



now would you have a job if you weren't doing the work assigned to you? No... go ahead and call me a "troll", honestly it only makes you look stupid for not having anything better to say.

[Wild Maiden]

Inconsistencies probably should be corrected in the game wherever it wouldn't change anything major so that people who choose the read the books (I am not one of them) can enjoy the lore. Things get overlooked, but the beauty of software is that mistakes can be corrected through patches.



As for which one is "correct", if I had were concerned with that, I would take anything the books say to be more correct than the game. The game can be fixed, the printed text cannot. I would also take anything the lead writer says as being more "cannon" than what any other writer says.

[Niten Ryu]

Infiniteone2 wrote...
Mistakes in lore lead people to start thinking "LOLlore"

I think people just have to get used to LOLore. Bioware, just like Blizzard and other big development houses know that the GAME always need to come first. Lore will be reconneced, stories will have canon ending, your actions don't matter in the big picture even you're sole reason why big event like Blight ended.

Bioware actually seem to give great power to writers, or their game mechanics designers want to reach compromises relativley easily.

[Alternategray]

Leonhartx wrote...

How you guys continue calling infinite a Troll after the writer says that we're playing a game full of BS lore is beyond me.

Just because he's rude doesn't make his statements any less true. The writer gets paid to write a story... regardless of how big the story is, it's his JOB to make sure -everything- makes sense.

now would you have a job if you weren't doing the work assigned to you? No... go ahead and call me a "troll", honestly it only makes you look stupid for not having anything better to say.

That's ridiculous. They've portrayed your character's knowledge of history exactly how it should be- secondhand and full o' holes. Last I remember, my pc found scraps of paper in the game... never did find a time machine. "History" is largely opinion and theory. First hand accounts are great, but few, and always biased. That's the point. 

Secondly, find someone who hasn't made a single mistake, no matter how trivial, in their last five to six years of work. Maybe, just maybe, you can. Now find me someone who's coworkers, no matter how remotely connected, haven't made a mistake either- at all (Dragon Age is a collaborative project, I believe.) Phaw. Let me put it this way- I've known people who would insist they're absolutely perfect, or at least that their work is. They're wrong- they're just not intelligent enough to see any flaws.

Actually, I kind of strayed from the point. It's not so much his opinion I object to. It's the tone. I don't care if he's completely right. He doesn't need to be a jerk about it. He doesn't need to be insulting. Period.

Modifié par Alternategray, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:31 .

[SphereofSilence]

I thought the codex and other facts deliberately not true or deviated was a good choice. It certainly added a touch of realism and room for various interpretations.

David Gaider wrote...

Sometimes things have changed, but over the six years of changes you'll get some legacy info that slips in even though it is no longer correct. And then there are things in the codex which are deliberately not true -- the majority of the lore- and character-related info is relayed as opinions and/or info relayed from the character's point of view.

 

*******************
*****SPOILER****
*******************


Do these include Alister being son of a maid rather than son of a Fiona, the Grey Warden elf mage in The Calling?

[Shannara13]

Leonhartx wrote...

"there are things in the codex which are deliberately not true -- the majority of the lore- and character-related info is relayed as opinions and/or info relayed from the character's point of view."

How you guys continue calling infinite a Troll after the writer says that we're playing a game full of BS lore is beyond me.

Just because he's rude doesn't make his statements any less true. The writer gets paid to write a story... regardless of how big the story is, it's his JOB to make sure -everything- makes sense.

now would you have a job if you weren't doing the work assigned to you? No... go ahead and call me a "troll", honestly it only makes you look stupid for not having anything better to say.

I dare you to find me any story of a decent size that contains zero plot holes.

[Kaosgirl]

Infiniteone2 wrote...

Not a troll, I expect near perfection, because I know the problems slacking and being careless can lead to over the course of time, and I don't expect most people to understand this because I train hundreds of people (you people) every year and they never "get it"

So... you're a pathetic trainer?  

Just staying within the tone of discussion you've already endorsed.