44 réponses à ce sujet

[Disciple888]

 Initial thoughts.

1) Vanguard got a huge buff (Charge can detonate both biotic/tech explosions, Nova is awesome)
2) Adept got buffed (more health enemies, biotic explosions through protections)
3) Engineer got buffed (Sabotage +100% Tech Damage, tech synergy, moar drones)
4) Infiltrator stayed about the same
5) Sentinel got nerfed (tanking is no longer a real option)
6) Soldier got nerfed HARD

Agree/disagree?

[JaegerBane]

I wouldn't exactly say the Sentinel got a nerf, given they've gained the exact same biotic explosions through defences the Adept got.

The soldier got nerfed, yeah.... but considering the state it was in back in ME2, its hardly surprising. The only thing that is surpising is that the soldier no longer really has the ability to function while carrying all the guns. But thats more of a problem with the weight mechanic.

[wirelesstkd]

I haven't played soldier in ME3 (outside of multiplayer), but it seems like it should have had a massive weight bonus so that it could spam AR without worrying about weapons. Or maybe AR should just not have a weight penalty applied at all.

Like I said, I haven't played the soldier class in single player, but in multiplayer they are so gimped it's just not even fun.

[JaegerBane]

wirelesstkd wrote...

I haven't played soldier in ME3 (outside of multiplayer), but it seems like it should have had a massive weight bonus so that it could spam AR without worrying about weapons. Or maybe AR should just not have a weight penalty applied at all.

I think its more that the devs went overboard with the weights on the shotguns. In-game they sport the same weight as the top-end assault and sniper rifles despite being, largely, short-range weapons with limited versatility. They tend to render the whole package as just too damn heavy.

[Pressedcat]

My impression is that the soldier didn't get entirely nerfed, but rather almost all the effective builds are now dependent on carrying only one or two weapons, spamming powers and exploiting the final inferno ammo blast upgrade.

So no, the soldier isn't entirely nerfed, but their weapon versatility has taken a hit. This probably has more to do with the new weight mechanic than their actual powers. When the weight dependent range in recharge times for adrenalin rush is ~25sec, something isn't right.

[JaegerBane]

Pressedcat wrote...

My impression is that the soldier didn't get entirely nerfed, but rather almost all the effective builds are now dependent on carrying only one or two weapons, spamming powers and exploiting the final inferno ammo blast upgrade.

So no, the soldier isn't entirely nerfed, but their weapon versatility has taken a hit. This probably has more to do with the new weight mechanic than their actual powers. When the weight dependent range in recharge times for adrenalin rush is ~25sec, something isn't right.

The issue with the weight mechanic is more that the penalties for going over the limit are extreme (effectively rendering your powers useless) but the benefits for carrying few weapons are just as extreme (effectively rendering your cooldowns as nonexistent). There just isn't any middle ground.

This is why I modded it out (or more accurately, set the maximum weight bonus and penatly to 0%).

Modifié par JaegerBane, 10 avril 2012 - 08:18 .

[Pressedcat]

JaegerBane wrote...


The issue with the weight mechanic is more that the penalties for going over the limit are extreme (effectively rendering your powers useless) but the benefits for carrying few weapons are just as extreme (effectively rendering your cooldowns as nonexistent). There just isn't any middle ground.

This is why I modded it out (or more accurately, set the maximum weight bonus and penatly to 0%).

I agree. If the recharge range for powers were linearly distributed with say a hard limit decrease/increases of about 30-50% of the powers base recharge time, things would be more reasonable. That way weight would still play a part, but it would not domiate the weapon loadout choice quite so much. As it is, recharge times with minimum weight capacity are 1/9th those with maximum capacity. This doesn't hurt the caster classes quite so much, but it can cripple weapon based classes who want to carry more than a couple of weapons (especially on first playthrough where weapons are limited to rank V - another odd design choice).

The new soldier class has plenty of potential, but the weight limitations have so far limited the viable playstyles.

Edit: I've just noticed how many post i've made complaining about the weight mechanic. I would just like to say how much I'm otherwise enjoying my first playthrough of ME3, just in case any Bioware employees happen to be reading these threads. I can imagine it is somewhat disheartening to read little but complaints and criticisms on these boards, but I guess it is easier to focus on the things you don't like than give appreciation for the things you do. Anyway, conscience salved, I'm going back to more whinging and moaning... 

Modifié par Pressedcat, 10 avril 2012 - 08:48 .

[Abraham_uk]

wirelesstkd wrote...

I haven't played soldier in ME3 (outside of multiplayer), but it seems like it should have had a massive weight bonus so that it could spam AR without worrying about weapons. Or maybe AR should just not have a weight penalty applied at all.

Like I said, I haven't played the soldier class in single player, but in multiplayer they are so gimped it's just not even fun.

I haven't played single player soldier. I'm more of a powers kind of guy.

Online, I played Krogan soldier in the demo (I want to unlock this in the paid version). Amazing. Carnage is fantastic, blood rage is fantastic. Fortification increases melee damage too. The only power I don't care about is the grenade. Meh. But aside from that, there is nothing gimped about the Krogan.

So yeah Krogan soldier was the exception to my "I don't play soldier" but I am also partial to any class that allows me to play Krogan.


Regarding the adept. It was so much fun. I played engineer and it was also a lot of fun. Once you remove the protections on just over half the enemies you can watch those classes soar. Vanguard is also a great killing machine.


I tend to prefer powers more than guns. I love equipping an assault rifle or raptor sniper/assault just because I feel Comander Shepard should always have an assault rifle equiped. But I save my ammo for brutes, banshees etc.

If I had to entirely rely on my guns, well there is my problem. I don't find the ammo powers as powerful as they used to be. Maybe they are as effective as they always were and it's the active powers that have become more devastating. So I can imagine soldier being overlooked for these reasons.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 10 avril 2012 - 08:52 .

[JaegerBane]

Pressedcat wrote...
I agree. If the recharge range for powers were linearly distributed with say a hard limit decrease/increases of about 30-50% of the powers base recharge time, things would be more reasonable. That way weight would still play a part, but it would not domiate the weapon loadout choice quite so much. As it is, recharge times with minimum weight capacity are 1/9th those with maximum capacity. This doesn't hurt the caster classes quite so much, but it can cripple weapon based classes who want to carry more than a couple of weapons (especially on first playthrough where weapons are limited to rank V - another odd design choice).

The new soldier class has plenty of potential, but the weight limitations have so far limited the viable playstyles.

Or rather, they created a situation where the classes could have total choice over what they're loadout would be, but slapped a massive restriction on top of it and defeated the object of the flexibility in the first place.

The restriction to V on first playthrough was a daft idea but was more of an issue because of the vast importance they attached to weight, rather than a problem in of itself. I wouldn't necessarily have an issue with guns that did slightly more damage and held slightly more ammo on a NG+ playthrough, but actually creating a situation where you can only carry a normal weapons load on your NG+ was just a plain terribad idea. I can't imagine what they were thinking when they dreamed that one up.

Edit: I've just noticed how many post i've made complaining about the weight mechanic. I would just like to say how much I'm otherwise enjoying my first playthrough of ME3, just in case any Bioware employees happen to be reading these threads. I can imagine it is somewhat disheartening to read little but complaints and criticisms on these boards, but I guess it is easier to focus on the things you don't like than give appreciation for the things you do. Anyway, conscience salved, I'm going back to more whinging and moaning... 

The weight issue is one of those things that I struggle to have sympathy with Bioware's devs. ME3 is still a classic and Bioware did a cracking job with it, but they have a terrible habit of implementing ideas that were clearly bad in their games - the recycled environments in DA2 are another example of it.

Ultimately, the weight mechanic is one of those things that were a great idea that was ruined by a terrible implementation. I'm just glad they made it so easy to mod it out of the game.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 10 avril 2012 - 09:19 .

[january42]

The weight issue is one of those things that I struggle to have sympathy with Bioware's devs. ME3 is still a classic and Bioware did a cracking job with it, but they have a terrible habit of implementing ideas that were clearly bad in their games - the recycled environments in DA2 are another example of it.

Ultimately, the weight mechanic is one of those things that were a great idea that was ruined by a terrible implementation. I'm just glad they made it so easy to mod it out of the game.

Overall, I actually like what they did with the weapons and find it an improvement over ME2.  But it does have some flaws.

In retrospect, what I think they should have done is only use the heaviest weapon for weight penalties and maybe restrict the number of weapons each class can carry(2 for casters, 5 for soldiers) Either that or have some sort of scaling for multiple weapons.

The other problems with soldiers were the way they implemented grenades(ME1 style was better. ME3's are hard to aim)and the fact that concussive shot is basicly a poor mans throw.  They also kinda nerfed ammo powers(50% squad evolution). So soldiers end up with only 1 decent power (AR) and a bunch of semi-redundant ammo powers.

Soldiers didn't really get nerfed so much as the improved tech/biotic explosions make abilities much more attractive than carrying a bunch of guns.

Overall, though, I don't find there to be much point to carrying alot of guns. As an Engineer I'd just carry a snipre rifle and a heavy pistol and was pretty much fine with that.  Never felt the need for more than a snipre rifle and a shotgun for another class either.

Modifié par january42, 10 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[termokanden]

Disciple888 wrote...

 Initial thoughts.

1) Vanguard got a huge buff (Charge can detonate both biotic/tech explosions, Nova is awesome)
2) Adept got buffed (more health enemies, biotic explosions through protections)
3) Engineer got buffed (Sabotage +100% Tech Damage, tech synergy, moar drones)
4) Infiltrator stayed about the same
5) Sentinel got nerfed (tanking is no longer a real option)
6) Soldier got nerfed HARD

Agree/disagree?

Agree with the first 3. Here's what I think about the rest:

Infiltrators got better due to the new cooldown system.

Sentinel is still good although tech armor was nerfed. You can't tank as easily as before, but you can still combo the crap out of everything. So the damage output has been massively buffed (since combos scale with difficulty).

Soldiers... I don't think they actually got that much worse. They have some cool things going for them this time. But the other classes have just been so massively buffed that the soldier stands out as the weakest class.

Modifié par termokanden, 10 avril 2012 - 11:32 .

[Disciple888]

termo - Sentinel might've gotten a dmg output boost from combos, but consider this. In ME2, the Assault Sentinel with GPS + Energy Drain was basically #1 in terms of class strength (killing speed/survivability). Vanguard was middling, below Soldier and Infiltrator. It could clear rooms faster, but at the risk of game over if Charge bugged out or your shotgun aim was not on point. Engineer and Adept were dead last.

Vanguard obviously got the biggest boost, because it's #1 now in ME3 thanks to Nova. Sentinel is no longer #1. Damage output might be better, but survivability is now lower than Vanguard. I call that a nerf. The class is still strong, but it's definitely not the elite tier it was in ME2. I'm talking about balancing, so class strength is always going to be relative to other classes.

Adept got buffed too, because now it's clearly not dead last. Sure, there's considerable overlap with the Sentinel in terms of offense, but overall, class strength has improved considerably thanks to being able to combo through protections and the abundance of health only enemies.

Infiltrators - balance-wise, they don't seem to have moved up or down relative to the other classes. I agree they're stronger than in ME2, but I'm only comparing them to the other ME3 classes.

Soldier - Definitely got nerfed hardest. They used to top tier in ME2, now they're pretty much dead last in terms of class strength.

- IMNWME

[ashwind]

Disciple888 wrote...

 Initial thoughts.

1) Vanguard got a huge buff (Charge can detonate both biotic/tech explosions, Nova is awesome)
2) Adept got buffed (more health enemies, biotic explosions through protections)
3) Engineer got buffed (Sabotage +100% Tech Damage, tech synergy, moar drones)
4) Infiltrator stayed about the same
5) Sentinel got nerfed (tanking is no longer a real option)
6) Soldier got nerfed HARD

Agree/disagree?

1. Vanguards didnt get stronger. They become easier to play because of Nova. Less risk but less reward.

2. agree

3. no data available

4. no data available

5. Totally disagree, in ME3, my tank build Sentinel stomp through enemies with speed and agility. Sentinel in ME2 are slow slow slow. Cant sprint (Shepard cannot even sprint the distance from Normandy's galaxy map to Joker), limited weapons. With the help of Javik/Liara, I am a biotic tank bomber that few can force me into taking cover.

6. Soldier is about the same. I still decimate everything BUT in ME3, I have the added agility and squad powers to kill twice as fast.

[Delta_V2]

Vanguard, Adept, and Engineer definitely got major buffs in ME3, but I think the changes to Infiltrator are sometimes overlooked. Making cloak's cooldown proportional to how long it was activated, increasing its damage bonus from ME2, and being able to evolve it to use a power while cloaked make Tac Cloak (especially when paired with energy drain or defense matrix) imho the single most versatile power in the game.

Being able to sabotage Cerberus turrets is always fun, disruptor ammo is awesome since it helps deal with the shieldgate on insanity (since the ammo damage is applied first), and squad cryo is still effective crowd control.

[Disciple888]

ashwind wrote...

Disciple888 wrote...

 Initial thoughts.

1) Vanguard got a huge buff (Charge can detonate both biotic/tech explosions, Nova is awesome)
2) Adept got buffed (more health enemies, biotic explosions through protections)
3) Engineer got buffed (Sabotage +100% Tech Damage, tech synergy, moar drones)
4) Infiltrator stayed about the same
5) Sentinel got nerfed (tanking is no longer a real option)
6) Soldier got nerfed HARD

Agree/disagree?

1. Vanguards didnt get stronger. They become easier to play because of Nova. Less risk but less reward.

2. agree

3. no data available

4. no data available

5. Totally disagree, in ME3, my tank build Sentinel stomp through enemies with speed and agility. Sentinel in ME2 are slow slow slow. Cant sprint (Shepard cannot even sprint the distance from Normandy's galaxy map to Joker), limited weapons. With the help of Javik/Liara, I am a biotic tank bomber that few can force me into taking cover.

6. Soldier is about the same. I still decimate everything BUT in ME3, I have the added agility and squad powers to kill twice as fast.

Vanguard - Less reward makes no sense.  If anything, they have GREATER reward than they did in ME2 (since both Charge/Nova can now knockdown health enemies and set off tech bursts/biotic explosions) and they can still use the Shotgun effectively if the player so chooses.  If anything, now they have GREATER reward, and LESS risk.

Sentinel - Disagree.  If your Sentinel in ME2 killed slower than any class other than a Vanguard, you were not playing him/her optimally.  Assault Sentinel + GPS + Energy Drain was like a SLIGHTLY slower Vanguard with about 10,000x  the survivability + combo options.  I forget whether it was Kronner or Borz that put up YouTube videos of this nonsense, but it's ridic.

I'm doing a NG Insanity run with Kronner's Tank Sentinel, with 70% Shield Recharge, Recharge Combo Throw, and light weapons (Vindicator V + Paladin V) to power spam.  Sure, running with Javik + Liara is great, no doubt.  But at the end of the day, your survivability still pales in comparison to ME3 Vanguard, and that's a huge dropoff from ME2, where Assault Sentinel was the undisputed KING of rush-down (all things considered).

Soldier - Disagree.  Got nerfed.  Still has terrible powers, but now lost defining class characteristics (ability to carry every weapon and Mattock + Adrenaline Rush combo).  Has a clear disadvantage against other SP classes.

I think we're talking about two different things here.  You're talking about ease of play.  I'm talking about class balance from ME2 compared to ME3.

[ashwind]

Disciple888 wrote...
Vanguard - Less reward makes no sense.  

Vanguards in ME2 are always living on the edge, skirting the thin line between life and death. The Claymore can make or break you with a single shot or a reload-cancel. That is the reward most of us are looking for and enjoy. Nova... just strips that "risk" away from us... hence, less reward.

Disciple888 wrote... 
Sentinel - Disagree.  If your Sentinel in ME2 killed slower than any class other than a Vanguard, you were not playing him/her optimally.  Assault Sentinel + GPS + Energy Drain was like a SLIGHTLY slower Vanguard with about 10,000x  the survivability + combo options.  I forget whether it was Kronner or Borz that put up YouTube videos of this nonsense, but it's ridic.

Soldier - Disagree.  Got nerfed.  Still has terrible powers, but now lost defining class characteristics (ability to carry every weapon and Mattock + Adrenaline Rush combo).  Has a clear disadvantage against other SP classes. 

Yes, later in the game when you find a proper weapon. But initially they are just too passive for my taste. Soldiers can kill as fast as a Vanguard overall and they sure kill faster than Sentinels. As for Spectre difficulty, yeah, that mod makes things more interesting but I am only taking into account of Bioware's work.

My Soldier run on ME3 is umm... uneventful. I have taken health damage... cant remember, must be less than 5-10x prior to Cerberus Station and beyond missions. Soldier's with Adrenaline Rush to reload the crazy flame exploder Pheaston, GPR kills 80% of things before they can even open fire at me. They are basically the same as ME2 except I am infinitely more agile, I can move around the battlefield like a real soldier. So, I cant say that they are nerf.

Yeah, perhaps you are comparing the numbers while I am assessing gameplay experience...

Modifié par ashwind, 11 avril 2012 - 05:00 .

[incinerator950]

I can't see a compelling argument from Claymore players in ME 2, most of them broke that with the Reload bypass.

I admit I had to turn the difficulty down for my Insanity Sentinel in ME 3. I was so bored by the halfway point in Cronos station I turned it down to casual just so I could finish the game.

This game isn't as easy or reptitive as ME 1, but even without DLC gear for ME 2 and ME 3, ME 3 is much easier on Insanity.

[termokanden]

Vanguards did become stronger in the sense that you can get a much lower charge cooldown this time around. However, you can't always pick the weapons you want then.

[Kronner]

Disciple888 wrote...

 Initial thoughts.

1) Vanguard got a huge buff (Charge can detonate both biotic/tech explosions, Nova is awesome)
2) Adept got buffed (more health enemies, biotic explosions through protections)
3) Engineer got buffed (Sabotage +100% Tech Damage, tech synergy, moar drones)
4) Infiltrator stayed about the same
5) Sentinel got nerfed (tanking is no longer a real option)
6) Soldier got nerfed HARD

Agree/disagree?

Agreed with all points, except no6, because I think Soldier is about the same.

[zeypher]

hmm i think with the new adrenaline rush i find my soldier as a very hard to kill character. With fortification during a rush i have 55% dmg resistance, and a rush every 3.7 secs also puts m back at shields. I mean he can take a lot of punishment

[JaegerBane]

january42 wrote...
Overall, I actually like what they did with the weapons and find it an improvement over ME2.  But it does have some flaws.

In retrospect, what I think they should have done is only use the heaviest weapon for weight penalties and maybe restrict the number of weapons each class can carry(2 for casters, 5 for soldiers) Either that or have some sort of scaling for multiple weapons.

I don't know. Ever since ME2 I've never been totally happy with restricting the number of weapons on certain classes that are seen more as 'casters'. It never made much sense to me that classes like the Engineer and the Adept were given smaller weapons loads on account of their 'powers' but things like the Soldier were allowed to carry a much larger weapons load yet had the same number of powers.

That's one of the big reasons why I'm partially supportive of the weight mechanic concept, if not its implementation. The soldier in ME2 was a rather ridiculous class, all things considered... they've just been totally butt-violated by the way the weight mechanic treats weapons.

[zeypher]

I hate the weight system. As a soldier i can only cary the particle rifle and a pistol. Since i use fortification anything lse my cooldowns go down the drain.
Would love to carry a shooty and a sniper with my particle rifle, but i cant

[termokanden]

Kronner wrote...

Agreed with all points, except no6, because I think Soldier is about the same.

Yeah exactly, it is about the same. I'd say the Concussive Shot and ammo power changes make them a bit more fun though.

They just seem weaker by comparison now.

I should probably also mention the Mattock. It's still good, but it isn't quite the beast it once was.

[Disciple888]

I just say Soldier was nerfed balance-wise, b/c he no longer has clear advantages over the other classes (i.e., better weapons, Mattock/Rush combo). I mean, the dmg. reduction from Adrenaline Rush is pretty useless. Even with 70% dmg. reduction for the Sentinel + defense power, it's nothing like Immunity from ME1. I can't see how 55% (with defense power) would actually do anything noticeable.

[Kronner]

Disciple888 wrote...

I just say Soldier was nerfed balance-wise, b/c he no longer has clear advantages over the other classes (i.e., better weapons, Mattock/Rush combo). I mean, the dmg. reduction from Adrenaline Rush is pretty useless. Even with 70% dmg. reduction for the Sentinel + defense power, it's nothing like Immunity from ME1. I can't see how 55% (with defense power) would actually do anything noticeable.

Time dilatation is what makes ARush insanely good. The fact that ARush also reloads your weapon can be exploited to the fullest with some weapons (Geth Pulse Rifle and Saber come to mind), which really pushes your DPS beyond anything the other classes are capable of in terms of weapon damage output.

I agree that the weight system is too harsh for Soldier as it basically forces you to carry only a few weapons.

But that is THE problem of ME3 gameplay imho, across all classes. Not to mention some of the heaviest weapons are actually worse than the lightweight stuff.