44 réponses à ce sujet

[Athenau]

The soldier is a bit of a sleeper class. The powerful mechanics (adrenaline rush instant reload, incendiary ammo explosions) aren't obvious so at first glance the class looks weak. But it isn't.

It really bugs me that the soldier gets less weight capacity than the vanguard/infiltrator without the final weight evolution (50 to 70). Bioware, please fix!

[Torrible]

I find the soldier incredibly powerful. With everything (armor set, weapon mod, skill tree) geared towards Weapon damage and using Adrenaline Rush to reload, a soldier with an M37-Falcon (upgraded ammp capacity) and cryo ammo is an unstoppable juggernaut on every difficulty level.

The Falcon is ridiculously OP. It works like a fast firing shotgun at close range but also it is also effective at long range, frequently stuns enemies and delivers AOE splash damage so you can knock enemies like the Nemesis out of cover just by aiming for the wall behind the cover. You can also bounce the mini-grenades off walls to hit enemies that can be shot at using conventional weapons.

I carry the Geth shotgun for safe measure but I hardly run out of ammo with the Falcon on insanity.

Modifié par Torrible, 12 avril 2012 - 02:14 .

[zeypher]

Athenau wrote...

The soldier is a bit of a sleeper class. The powerful mechanics (adrenaline rush instant reload, incendiary ammo explosions) aren't obvious so at first glance the class looks weak. But it isn't.

It really bugs me that the soldier gets less weight capacity than the vanguard/infiltrator without the final weight evolution (50 to 70). Bioware, please fix!

Agreed, its the poor weight capacity that hurts soldier the most.

[Bebuse]

I'm not sure I like the Vanguard buff. Sure, being Biotic God is amusing for a while but on ME2 Insanity, every single battle was a high strung, nerve racking test of skill, with your death being one failed Claymore reload-trick or inconvenient enemy "charge-target-killed-by-ally" away.

Also, removing the "every enemy has a shield" really messes up charge-shotgun combos! It's all about the biotics now.

I think the weight mechanics were well intentioned, and a good idea, but not implemented particularly well. The power recharge bonus and penalties are just too steep.

[Thetri]

Sentinel's tech armor has been nerfed dramatically. Everything else about the class is the same.

[Gravbh]

I have yet to play all the classes, but I'll list my view on what I have played.

1- Adept. My main class in ME2. I only play insanity andalways got a kick out of  the "adepts suck b/c of defense" talk. With that in mind, I sleepwalked through insanity. It was way too easy, being able to CC or combo literally everything.

Verdict- massively buffed

2- Engineer. I always though this class was underrated due to the sheer lulz from drone spam. That still exists, but the offensive strength went through the roof with incinerate specced for 100% bonus damgae on frozen targets + cryo explosion.

Verdict- buffed

3- Vanguard. My main in ME1 was a vanguard. The class appealed to me as a mix of combat/biotics. Charge didn't even exist. I switched to adept in ME2 because I didn't like the charge-spam playstyle. With the ME3 vanguard I rebuilt my ME1 vanguard. Carnage + pull + shockwave + baseline ammo powers is a great mix of biotic/combat. You obviously can't do crazy detonations like an adept, but those make the game way too easy anyway. You can still fling people around with pull and (now non-crappy) shockwave and you can still set off fire or cryo explosions with carnage + ammo powers. I only ever charge to refill my shields and don't even touch nova.

Verdict- in comparison to ME2 vanguard, no idea. My ME1 vanguard spec is my new favorite class though.

[Veil_of_Maya]

1) Adept:
-I never liked them in ME2, but in ME3 they're A LOT of fun to play with, even if they go down quick on higher difficulties. Biotic explosions.

2) Vanguard:
-I enjoyed playing as one in ME2, but I haven't tried them out in ME3 SP, only in MP (mainly the Asari, can't stand the Drell).

3) Engineer:
-Never played as one in ME2, doubt I'll give it a go in 3 either. Anyone offer anything great about this class? they seem only useful towards Geth, and the lack of Geth in the game ruins this.
Though, I LOVE the Salarian Engineer in MP.

4) Infiltrator:
-Was one of my favourite classes in ME2, and I'm loving the Sniper with Cryo rounds and Incinerate combo. Watching enemies explode and ice fly everywhere is satisfying.

5) Sentinel:
-Didn't overly enjoy this class either in ME2, and I haven't given them a go in SP yet for ME3 but Human Sentinel biotic combo's is rather fun and the extra defence helps. I might give them another go, plus being able to use both Biotics and Tech whilst being able to tank is sweet.

6) Soldier was my most played class in ME2, it was very simple (and I liked having Reave as a bonus power) and had a lot of guns. I like the upgrades it got in ME3, it made Insanity easy, but it really did feel underpowered compared to the other classes and the fact the weight system ruined one of the major reasons why to play as a Soldier annoyed me.

I know these are more like personal opinions rather than buffs/nerfs opinions, but whatever.

[Dark Penitant]

JaegerBane wrote...

Pressedcat wrote...
I agree. If the recharge range for powers were linearly distributed with say a hard limit decrease/increases of about 30-50% of the powers base recharge time, things would be more reasonable. That way weight would still play a part, but it would not domiate the weapon loadout choice quite so much. As it is, recharge times with minimum weight capacity are 1/9th those with maximum capacity. This doesn't hurt the caster classes quite so much, but it can cripple weapon based classes who want to carry more than a couple of weapons (especially on first playthrough where weapons are limited to rank V - another odd design choice).

The new soldier class has plenty of potential, but the weight limitations have so far limited the viable playstyles.

Or rather, they created a situation where the classes could have total choice over what they're loadout would be, but slapped a massive restriction on top of it and defeated the object of the flexibility in the first place.

The restriction to V on first playthrough was a daft idea but was more of an issue because of the vast importance they attached to weight, rather than a problem in of itself. I wouldn't necessarily have an issue with guns that did slightly more damage and held slightly more ammo on a NG+ playthrough, but actually creating a situation where you can only carry a normal weapons load on your NG+ was just a plain terribad idea. I can't imagine what they were thinking when they dreamed that one up.

Edit: I've just noticed how many post i've made complaining about the weight mechanic. I would just like to say how much I'm otherwise enjoying my first playthrough of ME3, just in case any Bioware employees happen to be reading these threads. I can imagine it is somewhat disheartening to read little but complaints and criticisms on these boards, but I guess it is easier to focus on the things you don't like than give appreciation for the things you do. Anyway, conscience salved, I'm going back to more whinging and moaning... 

The weight issue is one of those things that I struggle to have sympathy with Bioware's devs. ME3 is still a classic and Bioware did a cracking job with it, but they have a terrible habit of implementing ideas that were clearly bad in their games - the recycled environments in DA2 are another example of it.

Ultimately, the weight mechanic is one of those things that were a great idea that was ruined by a terrible implementation. I'm just glad they made it so easy to mod it out of the game.

I know this is late, but weapons are only limited to V on your FIRST playthough? Goddammit, that was my insanity run ><

[capn233]

Well I will throw in 2 cents, some of which I shouldn't even say but will anyway.

1. Vanguard is almost certainly more powerful than in ME2. No guns, no problem! In ME2 you were pretty powerful if you played smart, especially after Redundant Field Generator and Hard Shields, but in this game the amount of "smart" you need to apply is significantly lower. Additionally, one of the main weaknesses of Vanguard in ME2 was boss characters and mini-boses (to a smaller extent, which was removed by exploiting Stasis). In this game if you look at a biotic effect, it explodes, so just bring another biotic on the squad and blow up everything on the map regardless of protections.

2. Sentinel: they must have decided to make Tech Armor a pain to use and change it from more shields to damage reduction in order to ensure this class wasn't completely broken. People complained that it was overpowered in ME2... well now how about your own amped up biotic explosions? Oh and if you don't think you are tanky enough, stack some other damage reduction power on. Don't worry about cooldown, will give you the magic C/D reset in Throw.

3. Infiltrator is better than in ME2 because of Sabotage. I think Infiltrator may actually be the "weakest" class in ME2 if you know what you are doing with all of them (hardly anyone agrees, but I don't care). In this game it is back to the ME1 days where Infiltrator is sort of a better Soldier with tech abilities. All in all I wouldn't say this class approaches a biotic class, but it is good.

4. Engineer. Very good in this game. Sabotage and Overload are great. Cryo is worse than in ME2, partly due to the lack of melee enemies, and it isn't a free anti-shield or barrier power anymore. Incinerate is likewise worse partly due to the damage and partly due to the change in protections and mechanics. I am inclined to say that overall this class is better than in ME2, relatively speaking, but in ME2 it was a good class as well (maybe more subtle in its intricacies).

5. Soldier. Overall I think it took a step backwards. The changes to Adrenaline Rush are a bit odd. It is a usable power though, but it would be nice to have laser accuracy back to make it THE Revenant class. I find it irritating that Marksman cannot be used under Adrenaline Rush when you can stack the defensive powers on Tech Armor.  The instant reload is very nice though, in fact it may mean "Sniper Soldier" actually ends up with a slight buff compared to ME2, especially considering the shield gate. I think that the "weapon for every occasion" soldier has been killed though, which is unfortunate. I never felt I needed anymore than 2 guns. Plus nearly every gun is worse than a power these days, with few exceptions.  Out of the classes I have played in SP I might call this the weakest, but it is more than adequate for Insanity despite my complaining.

6. Adept - didn't actually play this in SP yet. I can't imagine it isn't anything besides buffed compared to ME2 for many of the same reasons Vanguard and Sentinel are improved. So what if Sentinel makes this class redundant? So what if you have overlapping powers? You can just cast whatever you want and all the enemies will explode. And I know you can take good weapons because your weight capacity is essentially the same as Engineer, and I ran Black Widow or Revenant, or really whatever I wanted even though Vindicator is more than adequate for the entirety of the game. Oh, and Engineer didn't have a magic cooldown reset in one of his powers either...

All in all there was potential to bring some balance with the weight capacity system, but I think it sort of missed the mark.  Also I the biotic combo change is a bit on the ridiculous side.  Probably something like Pull, Throw and Slam should be purely physics powers (stable) and not be involved in biotic detonations at all.

Modifié par capn233, 15 avril 2012 - 04:40 .

[JaegerBane]

capn233 wrote...
6. Adept - didn't actually play this in SP yet. I can't imagine it isn't anything besides buffed compared to ME2 for many of the same reasons Vanguard and Sentinel are improved. So what if Sentinel makes this class redundant? So what if you have overlapping powers? You can just cast whatever you want and all the enemies will explode. And I know you can take good weapons because your weight capacity is essentially the same as Engineer, and I ran Black Widow or Revenant, or really whatever I wanted even though Vindicator is more than adequate for the entirety of the game. Oh, and Engineer didn't have a magic cooldown reset in one of his powers either...

All in all there was potential to bring some balance with the weight capacity system, but I think it sort of missed the mark.  Also I the biotic combo change is a bit on the ridiculous side.  Probably something like Pull, Throw and Slam should be purely physics powers (stable) and not be involved in biotic detonations at all.

I actually don't mind the Adept has been turned into an explosion machine - biotic combos were my bread and butter in ME2 and the main reason why I stuck with the Adept class rather than switch. You still have the same combos as you did back then, but just more options than before.

I just think making the Warp/Throw combo the strongest one (i.e. the one that punches straight through defences) was a bad idea, as the Sentinel basically acquired all the true potency of the Adept in one fell swoop. Doesn't mean the Adept is a bad class but it does mean the game's class balance is once again, down the toilet.

[capn233]

JaegerBane wrote...

I just think making the Warp/Throw combo the strongest one (i.e. the one that punches straight through defences) was a bad idea, as the Sentinel basically acquired all the true potency of the Adept in one fell swoop. Doesn't mean the Adept is a bad class but it does mean the game's class balance is once again, down the toilet.

I agree with basically all of this.  I wouldn't say Adept is bad either, just I have read a lot of complaining about how Sentinel has made Adept redundant.

Basically the combo mechanics, reduced protections, and weapon weight system made the balance a mess.

[M920CAIN]

JaegerBane wrote...

Pressedcat wrote...

My impression is that the soldier didn't get entirely nerfed, but rather almost all the effective builds are now dependent on carrying only one or two weapons, spamming powers and exploiting the final inferno ammo blast upgrade.

So no, the soldier isn't entirely nerfed, but their weapon versatility has taken a hit. This probably has more to do with the new weight mechanic than their actual powers. When the weight dependent range in recharge times for adrenalin rush is ~25sec, something isn't right.

The issue with the weight mechanic is more that the penalties for going over the limit are extreme (effectively rendering your powers useless) but the benefits for carrying few weapons are just as extreme (effectively rendering your cooldowns as nonexistent). There just isn't any middle ground.

This is why I modded it out (or more accurately, set the maximum weight bonus and penatly to 0%).

Precisely what I did for the single player at least.

[JaegerBane]

M920CAIN wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Pressedcat wrote...

My impression is that the soldier didn't get entirely nerfed, but rather almost all the effective builds are now dependent on carrying only one or two weapons, spamming powers and exploiting the final inferno ammo blast upgrade.

So no, the soldier isn't entirely nerfed, but their weapon versatility has taken a hit. This probably has more to do with the new weight mechanic than their actual powers. When the weight dependent range in recharge times for adrenalin rush is ~25sec, something isn't right.

The issue with the weight mechanic is more that the penalties for going over the limit are extreme (effectively rendering your powers useless) but the benefits for carrying few weapons are just as extreme (effectively rendering your cooldowns as nonexistent). There just isn't any middle ground.

This is why I modded it out (or more accurately, set the maximum weight bonus and penatly to 0%).

Precisely what I did for the single player at least.

I figured bring able to carry whatever guns I wanted was nice perk to compensate for reducing my potential cooldown speed and gave me a good reason to stick with Rosenkov armour.

The simple fact was I couldn't find any encumberence-related positive cooldown boost that worked in a balanced fashion with my powers. I mean, with most (not all) of the cooldown-reduction Intel bonuses and just two bits of Rosenkov armour, my Throws were lasting 1.86 seconds and Warp was 4.2 seconds or something. If I put a Rosenkov chestplate on that and the last -5% intel bonus, *any* kind of positive bonus is just going to reduce them down to levels that wipe out any challenge whatsoever.

[jasonxxsatanna]

As a guy who plays soldier 95% of the time . . .when I played the demo it upset me I was like what the f**k did they do to soldier . . . but now I understand what they did . . .It depends on play style , you have to pick the weapons for your style of play and that means for the soldier now only max # of 3 weapons to not have bad cooldowns and also look at your weapon load out, for me if I want to take shotgun and still have two other weapons it may mean taking a smg with me and sniper rifle to still have a good cooldown or grab the n7 Eagle which is really a AR built to look like a pistol.
You also need to make sure those weapons are upgraded to reduce weight . . . but all in all I love the new soldier in ME2 I basically only used 2 - 3 weapons anyway in ME I only used pistol or shotgun . . . I hated ME1's AR's

[PsychoWARD23]

I miss being able to bring a platoon of guns as my soldi- wait, I still do that.

I have Fortification as my bonus power, and carry the Black Widow, Revenant, Hornet, Eviscerator, and Scorpion. Is it the best build? No. But it sure is fun for me, sucks I barely use Adrenaline Rush, but oh well, beggars can't be choosers.

[lazuli]

JaegerBane wrote...

The issue with the weight mechanic is more that the penalties for going over the limit are extreme (effectively rendering your powers useless) but the benefits for carrying few weapons are just as extreme (effectively rendering your cooldowns as nonexistent). There just isn't any middle ground.

I predicted this being the case after playing through Surkesh on the demo.  Being forced to carry a stupidly large loadout showed me that I would prefer to travel light, as it were. 

There are so many weapons I'll probably never even try.  It's just too tempting to abuse 200% faster cooldowns.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

ME3 Insanity doesn't seem to have the kind of elegance ME2 Insanity had (no more fine balance of target priority, CC'ing & killing). ME3 is all about combo'ing biotic + tech combos, and there are so many now that every build of every class seems to have at least 1-2 go-to combos that will utterly devastate anything the game throws at you, regardless of how you approach any situation. I only found ME3 Insanity challenging b/c I had no idea how straightforward combo'ing had become and was still trying to play it like it was ME2.. Now that I've cut my teeth on MP, I don't think there's really any part of the SP that's really challenging, other than maybe the set-piece fights (that are about memorizing specific patterns).


Also, yes, I agree that weapons are generally underpowered in ME3. The worthwhile ones are generally the lightest, most basic ones b/c of how powers synergize with them the best. Eg: In MP I both love and resent my Avenger X; it's one of the best guns, but it's boring as hell.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 16 avril 2012 - 02:16 .

[Zombie Chow]

Great thread, thanks OP and everyone.  Having played through ME3 3 times, this helps me explore the classes more.  My personal take is in-line with most replies here, that that class balance changed due to ME3's overall game design:

- Enemies don't have the extra defenses (Shields and Armor) like in ME2's Hardcore and Insanity
- Anyone can equip any weapon, even the premium ones, whereas in ME2 you were limited by class

Those differences put a lot more emphasis on abilities over weapons IMHO, which translates to:

Soldier - In comparison to all other classes, really got nerfed.  In ME2, it was the easiest class to learn, but still remained top-tier for higher difficulties

Adept, Engineer, Infiltrator - Their abilities' advantages became much bigger in ME3.  They can set up biotic/tech/cryo explosions all over the place all the time

Vanguard - In addition to the advantages of abilities, the Charge's game mechanics got better.  IMHO, in ME2, I could never reach the places I want with Charge...I just did that biotic shiny aura but didn't move.  In ME3, I could use it to take out the pesky sniper from above or move between different floors.

Sentinel - I did not know Warp + Throw was a biotic explosion until I read it here!  I agree Tech Armor was nerfed, but with Warp + Throw, a Sentinel is like a tougher and more versatile Adept.  I was going to rate Sentinel as low as the Soldier, but the possibility of Warp + Throw looks interesting

With that in mind, I'm planning on my optimal playthroughs with my ME2 character transfers:

ME2 Sentinel (my main alt) --> ME3 Sentinel with a Armor Piercing Ammo (just to deal with Brutes and Banshees)

ME2 Adept --> ME3 Vanguard with Energy Drain (just to draw Shields away from Marauders and Atlases)

ME2 Soldier --> also ME3 Sentinel, but this time with Defensive Matrix, just run around with heavy weapons

This thread's been re-invigorating, I really needed something to motivate me after the whole endings thing.  Thanks.

[Fortack]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

ME3 Insanity doesn't seem to have the kind of elegance ME2 Insanity had (no more fine balance of target priority, CC'ing & killing). ME3 is all about combo'ing biotic + tech combos, and there are so many now that every build of every class seems to have at least 1-2 go-to combos that will utterly devastate anything the game throws at you, regardless of how you approach any situation. I only found ME3 Insanity challenging b/c I had no idea how straightforward combo'ing had become and was still trying to play it like it was ME2.. Now that I've cut my teeth on MP, I don't think there's really any part of the SP that's really challenging, other than maybe the set-piece fights (that are about memorizing specific patterns).

Yeah. Some other thing I don't like about ME3 is how ridiculously easy 60-70% of the fights are. Most of the time you have to deal with 3 troopers and 1 elite or something. That's boring as hell. In ME2 the game kept up a consistent number of reasonable tough enemies throughout nearly all missions. ME3 is very easy but has a couple spikes that make things slightly harder - most of em are due to random spawn points so you get stabbed in the back by enemies coming from the area you've just cleared

[ashwind]

My answer to ME2:

Claymore, Flashbang Grenade, Cain.

In my most recent playthrough of the series, Harbinger didnt even get to say a line of his conversation. May not be easier than ME3 but combat sure ends much faster

Modifié par ashwind, 16 avril 2012 - 02:54 .