278 réponses à ce sujet

[LordRaptor]

LadyWench wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

I'm not sure if you've noticed this either Justin, but there are some text entries in Liara's terminal- they point out in a roundabout way that even though the crucible is very complex to build that it seems to have been made somewhat easy for the technicians to build. I don't have any examples of this and the wording is very subtle, but it is in the game.

Yes, I remember this, another good point!

We don't really know THAT much about Hackett's history, do we? Other non-game lore tends to follow TIM and Anderson, right? We never even see Hackett until Arrival, and in ME3 it's all through video chat, not too unlike most of Shep's communication with TIM...

EDIT: Afterthought. Also, if you have a Spacer Shep, the only info you get about Shep's mother surviving is thru Hackett. She talks to you in ME1, sends an email in ME2, but in ME3 she relays a vague, cliche "proud of you" message through Hackett only? Maybe she isn't really helping with the crucible, he was only telling Shep what he/she wants to hear for motivation...? Okay, maybe now I'M reaching, but I think you're right, so much of this theory is about "huh, weird" moments that all add up.

Maybe a stretch yes lol, but remember this is all speculation.  People should question what they are presented.  Bioware, especially Jessica has said as much in her Twitter posts.

[Quamzin]

Interesting concept. Thanks for making it coherent and readable, unlike other theory posts. Like all the other indoctrination theories, though, it still points to a rushed game that's missing a clearly defined resolution.

If we have to fire the "head canon" to make heads or tails of what we've been shown, then, sadly, mistakes were made.

[Jamie9]

When I played the demo for ME3, and heard that line, "Why haven't we heard from Admiral Hackett?". I immediately thought he had pulled a Loghain and ditched the Sol system.

In fact, I completely agree with pretty much everything you said.

But it has the same flaw as the Indoctrination Theory. We can't prove nor disprove it properly. It's like religion, the same argument will go round and round, neither side can truly win. Both sides are based upon faith, their belief.

For that reason, I take the ending at face value. As much as it pains me to do so.

[SamFlagg]

*looks around at people on board this Hackett Indoctrination train*

I will end all of you!!!

[Jamie9]

SamFlagg wrote...

*looks around at people on board this Hackett Indoctrination train*

I will end all of you!!!

Listen to yourself. You're... indoctrinated. They've got us fighting each other instead of fighting them!

PS. I will destroy you!

[LordRaptor]

Jamie9 wrote...

When I played the demo for ME3, and heard that line, "Why haven't we heard from Admiral Hackett?". I immediately thought he had pulled a Loghain and ditched the Sol system.

In fact, I completely agree with pretty much everything you said.

But it has the same flaw as the Indoctrination Theory. We can't prove nor disprove it properly. It's like religion, the same argument will go round and round, neither side can truly win. Both sides are based upon faith, their belief.

For that reason, I take the ending at face value. As much as it pains me to do so.

Agreed, and you're right to take it at face value.  However Bioware is nurturing speculation so I believe it can be healthy to speculate.  I think IT is plausible and I believe can and does work in conjunction with Manipulation Theory...I guess I'll coin it that lol. 

Quamzin wrote...

Interesting concept. Thanks for making it
coherent and readable, unlike other theory posts. Like all the other
indoctrination theories, though, it still points to a rushed game that's
missing a clearly defined resolution.

If we have to fire the "head canon" to make heads or tails of what we've been shown, then, sadly, mistakes were made.

Do not discredit those feelings, Bioware has proven they are exceptional in eliciting a specific emotional response in players.  I believe those thoughts we have are intentionally induced by Bioware. 

[YayForYuffie]

Ugh, I hate when depressing theories make huge amounts of sense. Damn you OP!

[Keldaurz]

When you read people's theories and you can't argue against them even if you know it's wrong...

Speculate harder!

[LordRaptor]

YayForYuffie wrote...

Ugh, I hate when depressing theories make huge amounts of sense. Damn you OP!

They stated it would be bittersweet.  Manipulation theory is definitely...bittersweet? 

[Jamie9]

Hey OP. I wanted to run something by you.

Alot of your evidence (not all) can be used to support another "theory" that I'd been thinking about. If the ending is taken at face value, then the Reapers want the synthesis option.

This is why they got TIM to resurrect Shepard. Because they needed someone with incredible will and be half organic/synthetic for synthesis to succeed.

Thus, the Collectors going after humans was a direct insult to Shepard. Harbinger wanted Shepard to defeat the Collectors, it would prove he was strong enough to allow synthesis to succeed. TIM checks up on Shep often, and allows Shep onto Horizon and the Collector Ship (clues that TIM and the Collectors were, in fact, working together).

Arrival is set up so that Harbinger can "check up" on Shepard's progress. Dr. Amanda Kenson (she has the Harbinger "assuming direct control" eyes), checks on Shepard's body for 2 days. Shepard's willpower overcomes the drugs, proving to Harbinger that Shepard is strong enough to succeed.

Cue more tests in ME3. The final test in seeing if Shepard's will can overpower TIM's. And it does.

Wondering what you think?

[Oldbones2]

Why is there a new indoctrination theory every week? Can't this new one just fit into the old one?

[stargatefan1990]

SamFlagg wrote...

*looks around at people on board this Hackett Indoctrination train*

I will end all of you!!!

I will Destroy you!! (Repeat about a million times lol)

and a good theory will be one i ponder on

[LordRaptor]

Jamie9 wrote...

Hey OP. I wanted to run something by you.

Alot of your evidence (not all) can be used to support another "theory" that I'd been thinking about. If the ending is taken at face value, then the Reapers want the synthesis option.

This is why they got TIM to resurrect Shepard. Because they needed someone with incredible will and be half organic/synthetic for synthesis to succeed.

Thus, the Collectors going after humans was a direct insult to Shepard. Harbinger wanted Shepard to defeat the Collectors, it would prove he was strong enough to allow synthesis to succeed. TIM checks up on Shep often, and allows Shep onto Horizon and the Collector Ship (clues that TIM and the Collectors were, in fact, working together).

Arrival is set up so that Harbinger can "check up" on Shepard's progress. Dr. Amanda Kenson (she has the Harbinger "assuming direct control" eyes), checks on Shepard's body for 2 days. Shepard's willpower overcomes the drugs, proving to Harbinger that Shepard is strong enough to succeed.

Cue more tests in ME3. The final test in seeing if Shepard's will can overpower TIM's. And it does.

Wondering what you think?

Hmm I do not know if it as focused as specifically the Synthesis ending.  Arrival is a perfect example of how the Reapers seek to utilize Shepard instead of kill him however.  They have Shepard unconscious and incapacitated, I believe for two days like you said.  But even for a limited amount of time they could have ended Shepard, but they don't, even with Kenson under direct control.  This is very telling.  Harbinger intends to utilize Shepard to achieve it's goal.  Whether this goal is specifically Synthesis...I do not know, but I agree Harbinger is setting Shepard up to lead the galaxy, while in the background Harbinger is guiding Shepard, either by Hackett or by Shepards indoctrination.

As for TIM and Collectors, I see them as separate pawns, both working for the Reapers.  The Collectors act as the obvious, visible threat, which leads others to ignore/overlook the invasive Reaper agents like TIM.  This leads people to...trust enemies...and betray friends...indoctrination at its most subtle.

Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 12:12 .

[LordRaptor]

Oldbones2 wrote...

Why is there a new indoctrination theory every week? Can't this new one just fit into the old one?

This theory can work with the Shepard IT yes, however it can also work without Shepard being indoctrinated.  This manipulation theory basically employs a kansas city shuffle on the player.  Causing you to look at the obvious threats while ignoring the subtle hints of an infiltrator.

A perfect example of this utilized in a video game is in Bioshock.

"Would you kindly fire that Crucible Shepard?"

Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 12:13 .

[Jamie9]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Hmm I do not know if it as focused as specifically the Synthesis ending.  Arrival is a perfect example of how the Reapers seek to utilize Shepard instead of kill him however.  They have Shepard unconscious and incapacitated, I believe for two days like you said.  But even for a limited amount of time they could have ended Shepard, but they don't, even with Kenson under direct control.  This is very telling.  Harbinger intends to utilize Shepard to achieve it's goal.  Whether this goal is specifically Synthesis...I do not know, but I agree Harbinger is setting Shepard up to lead the galaxy, while in the background Harbinger is guiding Shepard, either by Hackett or by Shepards indoctrination.

As for TIM and Collectors, I see them as separate pawns, both working for the Reapers.  The Collectors act as the obvious, visible threat, which leads others to ignore/overlook the invasive Reaper agents like TIM.  This leads people to...trust enemies...and betray friends...indoctrination at its most subtle.

Yeah, your theory is much more detailed and thought out than my scrambled-together one.

Arrival and ME3 don't seem to gel for me. They're literally polar opposites of each other, and I can't understand why. Harbinger, like we say, definitely doesn't want Shepard dead.

Yet throughout ME2 Harbinger constantly taunts Shepard, even through Arrival. Then in ME3 he is conspicuously silent. But Harbinger still talks of Shepard to the other Reapers...

I do wonder why they wouldn't reveal these things in-game though. Harbinger's motivations were practically the main plot point of ME2.

I really, really hope that the extended cut involves something like this, something that makes this much sense, not only maintains continuity but adds nuances to it.

PS. Nice quote from the codex there.

[King Gigglez]

Clever, never thought of Hackett being indoctrinated, but it wouldn't be too surprising... No one really knows his back story, granted I still think there would be some physical evidence on him (like TIM) that would be noticeable. If it weren't for the lack of physical evidence (in appearance) I would whole hardily agree with this idea, it is very clever... and something I thought would happen in ME3 (I personally thought Shepard would be Indoctrinated in ME3, after all, who else has been in contact with just as much Reaper Tech and end up not being indoctrinated). Very clever, hope they add this into the ending (never will happen, but could be a nice touch)

[LordRaptor]

Jamie9 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Hmm I do not know if it as focused as specifically the Synthesis ending.  Arrival is a perfect example of how the Reapers seek to utilize Shepard instead of kill him however.  They have Shepard unconscious and incapacitated, I believe for two days like you said.  But even for a limited amount of time they could have ended Shepard, but they don't, even with Kenson under direct control.  This is very telling.  Harbinger intends to utilize Shepard to achieve it's goal.  Whether this goal is specifically Synthesis...I do not know, but I agree Harbinger is setting Shepard up to lead the galaxy, while in the background Harbinger is guiding Shepard, either by Hackett or by Shepards indoctrination.

As for TIM and Collectors, I see them as separate pawns, both working for the Reapers.  The Collectors act as the obvious, visible threat, which leads others to ignore/overlook the invasive Reaper agents like TIM.  This leads people to...trust enemies...and betray friends...indoctrination at its most subtle.

Yeah, your theory is much more detailed and thought out than my scrambled-together one.

Arrival and ME3 don't seem to gel for me. They're literally polar opposites of each other, and I can't understand why. Harbinger, like we say, definitely doesn't want Shepard dead.

Yet throughout ME2 Harbinger constantly taunts Shepard, even through Arrival. Then in ME3 he is conspicuously silent. But Harbinger still talks of Shepard to the other Reapers...

I do wonder why they wouldn't reveal these things in-game though. Harbinger's motivations were practically the main plot point of ME2.

I really, really hope that the extended cut involves something like this, something that makes this much sense, not only maintains continuity but adds nuances to it.

PS. Nice quote from the codex there.

Don't give up on your theory.  I can definitely see where you are coming from.  With TIM indoctrinated then he basically created a perfect Husk in Shepard, an individual Reaper.  A husk that is sentient and individual.  Perhaps this is how they would "find another way".

Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 12:25 .

[LordRaptor]

King Gigglez wrote...

Clever, never thought of Hackett
being indoctrinated, but it wouldn't be too surprising... No one really
knows his back story, granted I still think there would be some physical
evidence on him (like TIM) that would be noticeable. If it weren't for
the lack of physical evidence (in appearance) I would whole hardily
agree with this idea, it is very clever... and something I thought would
happen in ME3 (I personally thought Shepard would be Indoctrinated in
ME3, after all, who else has been in contact with just as much Reaper
Tech and end up not being indoctrinated). Very clever, hope they add
this into the ending (never will happen, but could be a nice
touch)

Much appreciated.  Yes the physical evidence is lacking, but I don't discount of it because of that.  Dr. Kenson had no visible signs and it could be assumed she is the means in which Hackett became indoctrinated, if not around that same time.  TIM's indoctrination becomes very aggressive by the end, and before that the only physical attribute would be his eyes, so it's not a complete count out.

Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 12:27 .

[kmcd5722]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

27) No Reapers attempt to attack the Crucible, even though they are in close proximity to it before it fires.

Actually, this is not the case.  If you wait around for about twenty minutes in the final scene where you can pick your favorite color, a screenshot pops saying:  "Game Over: The Crucible has been destroyed."  Or something like that.  

Interesting idea, but ultimately, doesn't really seek answer any more of the problems with the ending (the breathe sequence or any of the post-game slideshow). 

[LordRaptor]

Reading another thread about Mike Gamble's twitter posts regarding the Mass Relays being "disabled" leads me to see this more as Reaper controlled conclusions.

[King Gigglez]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

King Gigglez wrote...

Clever, never thought of Hackett
being indoctrinated, but it wouldn't be too surprising... No one really
knows his back story, granted I still think there would be some physical
evidence on him (like TIM) that would be noticeable. If it weren't for
the lack of physical evidence (in appearance) I would whole hardily
agree with this idea, it is very clever... and something I thought would
happen in ME3 (I personally thought Shepard would be Indoctrinated in
ME3, after all, who else has been in contact with just as much Reaper
Tech and end up not being indoctrinated). Very clever, hope they add
this into the ending (never will happen, but could be a nice
touch)

Much appreciated.  Yes the physical evidence is lacking, but I don't discount of it because of that.  Dr. Kenson had no visible signs and it could be assumed she is the means in which Hackett became indoctrinated, if not around that same time.  TIM's indoctrination becomes very aggressive by the end, and before that the only physical attribute would be his eyes, so it's not a complete count out.

That is true, (on a side note, TIM's eyes were so epic, would love to have eyes like those!). I personally believe that they both are indoctrinated (not whole hardily but I agree). Shepard's indoctrination is pretty much apperent when at the very begining with the kid scene. Notice as the kid manages to fit into the car without being acknowledged by anyone at all (and the door just so happenely shuts as he stares at shepard) or the vent scene...

I do wonder, why there aren't any other higher up officials indoctrinated (Asari, Salarian, Krogan, Turian, Quarian, etc.) I am also surprised te Reapers didn't go after Vorcha to use as husks, considering how fast they reproduce and what not.

I hope they show that both Hackett and Shepard are indoctrinated... would kinda make a lot of sense.

[balance5050]

kmcd5722 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

27) No Reapers attempt to attack the Crucible, even though they are in close proximity to it before it fires.

Actually, this is not the case.  If you wait around for about twenty minutes in the final scene where you can pick your favorite color, a screenshot pops saying:  "Game Over: The Crucible has been destroyed."  Or something like that.  

Interesting idea, but ultimately, doesn't really seek answer any more of the problems with the ending (the breathe sequence or any of the post-game slideshow). 

[TsaiMeLemoni]

Very interesting theory. I always thought something was off after the "Where's Hackett?" line in the beginning, but then just ignored it.

The more I think about it, if I support any speculation theory, it's this one. Good job OP!

[goose2989]

This is just so much more depressing to think about than the ending we have

[LordRaptor]

kmcd5722 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

27) No Reapers attempt to attack the Crucible, even though they are in close proximity to it before it fires.

Actually, this is not the case.  If you wait around for about twenty minutes in the final scene where you can pick your favorite color, a screenshot pops saying:  "Game Over: The Crucible has been destroyed."  Or something like that.  

Interesting idea, but ultimately, doesn't really seek answer any more of the problems with the ending (the breathe sequence or any of the post-game slideshow). 

I would counter with, do you see a scene of Reapers destroying it?  It does not specifically state it is destroyed by Reapers.  Of course you can speculate, but then so can I.

Edit to clarify:  If I am to attribute MT to the ending then if you wait around that long I could attribute the destruction of the Crucible to unified fleet forces that realized the Crucible was a trap, designed and implemented by the Reapers.

Also in regards to several of the ending slideshow:

Joker escaping Sol system: He could be escaping the Reaper controlled space, after witnessing the defeat or deactivation of the unified fleet.  The only object we see damaged by the Citadel beam is the Normandy.  Then it pans out to a galactic view that shows immeasurably large explosions.  We as players assume these explosions destroy/control/synthesize the Reapers or any corresponding entity.  However the only thing shown damaged in ALL 3 endings...is an Alliance vessel.  Agreed this does not cover how your crewmates end up on the Normandy...I can't answer that yet.  And as for how Shepard breathes outside the Citadel we can turn to Bioware's own clarification about kinetic fields creating safe passage around the Citadel as well as statements regarding "assume everyone important survived the Citadel".

Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 12:42 .