JustinElenbaas wrote...
Reading another thread about Mike Gamble's twitter posts regarding the Mass Relays being "disabled" leads me to see this more as Reaper controlled conclusions.
JustinElenbaas wrote...
kmcd5722 wrote...
JustinElenbaas wrote...
27) No Reapers attempt to attack the Crucible, even though they are in close proximity to it before it fires.
Actually, this is not the case. If you wait around for about twenty minutes in the final scene where you can pick your favorite color, a screenshot pops saying: "Game Over: The Crucible has been destroyed." Or something like that.
Interesting idea, but ultimately, doesn't really seek answer any more of the problems with the ending (the breathe sequence or any of the post-game slideshow).
I would counter with, do you see a scene of Reapers destroying it? It does not specifically state it is destroyed by Reapers. Of course you can speculate, but then so can I.
Also in regards to several of the ending slideshow:
Joker escaping Sol system: He could be escaping the Reaper controlled space, after witnessing the defeat or deactivation of the unified fleet. The only object we see damaged by the Citadel beam is the Normandy. Then it pans out to a galactic view that shows immeasurably large explosions. We as players assume these explosions destroy/control/synthesize the Reapers or any corresponding entity. However the only thing shown damaged in ALL 3 endings...is an Alliance vessel. Agreed this does not cover how your crewmates end up on the Normandy...I can't answer that yet. And as for how Shepard breathes outside the Citadel we can turn to Bioware's own clarification about kinetic fields creating safe passage around the Citadel as well as statements regarding "assume everyone important survived the Citadel".
JustinElenbaas wrote...
Don't give up on your theory. I can definitely see where you are coming from. With TIM indoctrinated then he basically created a perfect Husk in Shepard, an individual Reaper. A husk that is sentient and individual. Perhaps this is how they would "find another way".
Maybe Harbinger came up with the plan only after the Lazurus Project brought Shepard back.Jamie9 wrote...
JustinElenbaas wrote...
Don't give up on your theory. I can definitely see where you are coming from. With TIM indoctrinated then he basically created a perfect Husk in Shepard, an individual Reaper. A husk that is sentient and individual. Perhaps this is how they would "find another way".
I feel like that there's something we're both missing. If we run with your theory, then they tried to do it with Saren, but it failed. Shepard defeated both Saren and Sovereign.
The Collectors then killed Shepard. They had no intention of capturing him alive at this point. They just wanted his body. But Feron and Liara intervened and got the body and gave it to Cerberus (another, unwitting, tool of the Reapers).
At this point, Harbinger decided he wanted Shepard alive. Why? TIM brings Shepard back, and throughout ME2 and Arrival, Harbinger states it would be preferable to have Shepard alive. In Arrival, Kenson doesn't kill Shepard.
What changed?
Saren, Shepard and the Illusive Man. They are all very similar physically. All 3 are organics with cybernetic implants. Reaper implants.
I feel like there's one piece of this that I'm missing. What changed and why are all 3 of them so similar?
King Gigglez wrote...
JustinElenbaas wrote...
King Gigglez wrote...
Clever, never thought of Hackett
being indoctrinated, but it wouldn't be too surprising... No one really
knows his back story, granted I still think there would be some physical
evidence on him (like TIM) that would be noticeable. If it weren't for
the lack of physical evidence (in appearance) I would whole hardily
agree with this idea, it is very clever... and something I thought would
happen in ME3 (I personally thought Shepard would be Indoctrinated in
ME3, after all, who else has been in contact with just as much Reaper
Tech and end up not being indoctrinated). Very clever, hope they add
this into the ending (never will happen, but could be a nice
touch)
Much appreciated. Yes the physical evidence is lacking, but I don't discount of it because of that. Dr. Kenson had no visible signs and it could be assumed she is the means in which Hackett became indoctrinated, if not around that same time. TIM's indoctrination becomes very aggressive by the end, and before that the only physical attribute would be his eyes, so it's not a complete count out.
That is true, (on a side note, TIM's eyes were so epic, would love to have eyes like those!). I personally believe that they both are indoctrinated (not whole hardily but I agree). Shepard's indoctrination is pretty much apperent when at the very begining with the kid scene. Notice as the kid manages to fit into the car without being acknowledged by anyone at all (and the door just so happenely shuts as he stares at shepard) or the vent scene...
I do wonder, why there aren't any other higher up officials indoctrinated (Asari, Salarian, Krogan, Turian, Quarian, etc.) I am also surprised te Reapers didn't go after Vorcha to use as husks, considering how fast they reproduce and what not.
I hope they show that both Hackett and Shepard are indoctrinated... would kinda make a lot of sense.
balance5050 wrote...
JustinElenbaas wrote...
kmcd5722 wrote...
JustinElenbaas wrote...
27) No Reapers attempt to attack the Crucible, even though they are in close proximity to it before it fires.
Actually, this is not the case. If you wait around for about twenty minutes in the final scene where you can pick your favorite color, a screenshot pops saying: "Game Over: The Crucible has been destroyed." Or something like that.
Interesting idea, but ultimately, doesn't really seek answer any more of the problems with the ending (the breathe sequence or any of the post-game slideshow).
I would counter with, do you see a scene of Reapers destroying it? It does not specifically state it is destroyed by Reapers. Of course you can speculate, but then so can I.
Also in regards to several of the ending slideshow:
Joker escaping Sol system: He could be escaping the Reaper controlled space, after witnessing the defeat or deactivation of the unified fleet. The only object we see damaged by the Citadel beam is the Normandy. Then it pans out to a galactic view that shows immeasurably large explosions. We as players assume these explosions destroy/control/synthesize the Reapers or any corresponding entity. However the only thing shown damaged in ALL 3 endings...is an Alliance vessel. Agreed this does not cover how your crewmates end up on the Normandy...I can't answer that yet. And as for how Shepard breathes outside the Citadel we can turn to Bioware's own clarification about kinetic fields creating safe passage around the Citadel as well as statements regarding "assume everyone important survived the Citadel".
The Reapers are the only ones who would want to destroy it, it clearly says it was destroyed, so who destroyed it if not the Reapers?
):
N7Infernox wrote...
Maybe Harbinger came up with the plan only after the Lazurus Project brought Shepard back.Jamie9 wrote...
JustinElenbaas wrote...
Don't give up on your theory. I can definitely see where you are coming from. With TIM indoctrinated then he basically created a perfect Husk in Shepard, an individual Reaper. A husk that is sentient and individual. Perhaps this is how they would "find another way".
I feel like that there's something we're both missing. If we run with your theory, then they tried to do it with Saren, but it failed. Shepard defeated both Saren and Sovereign.
The Collectors then killed Shepard. They had no intention of capturing him alive at this point. They just wanted his body. But Feron and Liara intervened and got the body and gave it to Cerberus (another, unwitting, tool of the Reapers).
At this point, Harbinger decided he wanted Shepard alive. Why? TIM brings Shepard back, and throughout ME2 and Arrival, Harbinger states it would be preferable to have Shepard alive. In Arrival, Kenson doesn't kill Shepard.
What changed?
Saren, Shepard and the Illusive Man. They are all very similar physically. All 3 are organics with cybernetic implants. Reaper implants.
I feel like there's one piece of this that I'm missing. What changed and why are all 3 of them so similar?
Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 12:53 .
Modifié par balance5050, 11 avril 2012 - 12:55 .
JustinElenbaas wrote...
King Gigglez wrote...
JustinElenbaas wrote...
King Gigglez wrote...
Clever, never thought of Hackett
being indoctrinated, but it wouldn't be too surprising... No one really
knows his back story, granted I still think there would be some physical
evidence on him (like TIM) that would be noticeable. If it weren't for
the lack of physical evidence (in appearance) I would whole hardily
agree with this idea, it is very clever... and something I thought would
happen in ME3 (I personally thought Shepard would be Indoctrinated in
ME3, after all, who else has been in contact with just as much Reaper
Tech and end up not being indoctrinated). Very clever, hope they add
this into the ending (never will happen, but could be a nice
touch)
Much appreciated. Yes the physical evidence is lacking, but I don't discount of it because of that. Dr. Kenson had no visible signs and it could be assumed she is the means in which Hackett became indoctrinated, if not around that same time. TIM's indoctrination becomes very aggressive by the end, and before that the only physical attribute would be his eyes, so it's not a complete count out.
That is true, (on a side note, TIM's eyes were so epic, would love to have eyes like those!). I personally believe that they both are indoctrinated (not whole hardily but I agree). Shepard's indoctrination is pretty much apperent when at the very begining with the kid scene. Notice as the kid manages to fit into the car without being acknowledged by anyone at all (and the door just so happenely shuts as he stares at shepard) or the vent scene...
I do wonder, why there aren't any other higher up officials indoctrinated (Asari, Salarian, Krogan, Turian, Quarian, etc.) I am also surprised te Reapers didn't go after Vorcha to use as husks, considering how fast they reproduce and what not.
I hope they show that both Hackett and Shepard are indoctrinated... would kinda make a lot of sense.
I agree Shepard's indoctrination is plausible and very logical. I however do not know if it is complete at the start of the game or if it is being guided by an already indoctrinated Hackett, who I fully believe is indoctrinated through the game.
I made note of that in my theory. I would assume the Reapers would not want the indoctrination of influential leaders to be widely known. That would utterly defeat the purpose. Sovereign did not want any of its agents known to be indoctrinated. Once that was discovered it actually unhinged Sovereign's plans.
nitefyre410 wrote...
JustinElenbaas wrote...
Reading another thread about Mike Gamble's twitter posts regarding the Mass Relays being "disabled" leads me to see this more as Reaper controlled conclusions.
Disabled...
What is Mike Gamble Smoking... you can see the Relays breaking up in two of the three endings.
You what at this point I'm done speculating...
The right hand of Bioware does not know left hand is doing while its own foot kicks it in its own ass.
Crossfire.balance5050 wrote...
"I would counter with, do you see a scene of Reapers destroying it? It
does not specifically state it is destroyed by Reapers."
But then who DOES?? Sorry, this sounded good at first, but it kind of falls apart with the Cidadel being destroyed if you wait around for 20 minutes.
N7Infernox wrote...
I really like this theory. It makes the situation where Catalyst nags a dying Shep into activating the Crucible make more sense too. Also, like straight up Indoc theory, it has synthesis= galactichuskification and control= a temporary "fix".
But, Imagine if Bioware made it so that when you pick the good Destroy ending, the cutscene includes clips of Harbinger and the Reapers turning on the Crucible, trying to destroy it and stop it from firing. Then, when all the Reapers are being wiped out, there is a clip of Hackett finally snapping out of it. Finally, the whole "Normandy gtho" cutscene is removed (it's kept in the other endings b/c at some point when Shep was on Earth Joker finds out about Hackett's indoctrination; he swoops to Earth trying to save Shep and co, but Shep has already reached the conduit, so they bail).
The super bad destroy ending is left alone, b/c the Catalyst's/Reaper's indoc didn't get Shep to bring enough war assets to the final battle, or get bring enough resources for effective Crucible construction. The Catalyst just says 'screw it, i'll just have to make some more Reapers later'.
A guy can hope.
N7Infernox wrote...
Crossfire.balance5050 wrote...
"I would counter with, do you see a scene of Reapers destroying it? It
does not specifically state it is destroyed by Reapers."
But then who DOES?? Sorry, this sounded good at first, but it kind of falls apart with the Cidadel being destroyed if you wait around for 20 minutes.
Remember: sir issac newton is the deadliest SOB in space
Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 01:03 .
King Gigglez wrote...
True, True... but then again, why not have the rest of the galaxy know? Set up a scapegoat and all of the little unusual things will go unnoticed. But, anyway back to the point.... Hackett being Indoctronated would... be... smart, it won't fix all of my anger with the ending (Haestrom and so much more left unresolved) but, at least you can make sense of the endings with it ... I do want to replay ME3 though with this in mind...
Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 01:10 .
jumpingkaede wrote...
This makes a lot of sense.
Including why Hackett sent Shepard on all those meaningless quests in ME1 when Shepard needed to be stopping Saren.
"Shepard... can you fly to this remote moon and talk to this minor criminal warlord for us? We don't think our ALLIANCE NEGOTIATORS can handle it."
JustinElenbaas wrote...
King Gigglez wrote...
True, True... but then again, why not have the rest of the galaxy know? Set up a scapegoat and all of the little unusual things will go unnoticed. But, anyway back to the point.... Hackett being Indoctronated would... be... smart, it won't fix all of my anger with the ending (Haestrom and so much more left unresolved) but, at least you can make sense of the endings with it ... I do want to replay ME3 though with this in mind...
Because MT assumes Hackett is indoctrinated and that the Reapers can be defeated conventionally. The Reapers do set up scapegoats, Collectors in ME2 and Cerberus in ME3 as their goals shift and change. Hackett is the biggest proprietor that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally, though their battle tactics from previous cycles stresses this is not the case. Hackett repeatedly stresses that they cannot be defeated conventionally, then directs you to gather all the forces to lead an assault on a small contingent of Reapers in the grand scheme of the galaxy. Just look at the galaxy map just before the finaly push. They are literally in every system.
Btw when you do please feel free to inform me of anything that; refutes or supports this theory. I am curious to see.
Ytook wrote...
An interesting take, I still think the only way for the endings to be kept is to use the indoc theory, and a lot of this theory works very well with it. During the game I was expecting the crucible to be a trap along the lines of 'you must be X advanced to build this and if you can then you can defeat the reapers.'
However I still think the ending should have you able to win through a high enough EMS, winning through a low EMS while an interesting story twist is a terrible gameplay ideal as in play throughs it actively encourages you to not do most of the content (and buy DLC which will likely use EMS as a draw).
This theory could work with indoc to bring the ending I thought would work where you realise where all the reapers have done is out of desperation, the collectors killing you, the building the human reaper to try and bolster their forces quickly and finally sheps indoc to try and break the moral of the unified force. Then if you have enough EMS you defeat the bulk of theyr forces and harbinger on earth and use your experienced fleet to mop them up. I would have Shepard die if you failed to resist indoc (as it takes extra effort to then break it which can be done post indoc ala Saren) then have specific squad members die if you don't have certain things such as the Rachni, no big choice ending just a culmination of all your other choices.
King Gigglez wrote...
JustinElenbaas wrote...
King Gigglez wrote...
True, True... but then again, why not have the rest of the galaxy know? Set up a scapegoat and all of the little unusual things will go unnoticed. But, anyway back to the point.... Hackett being Indoctronated would... be... smart, it won't fix all of my anger with the ending (Haestrom and so much more left unresolved) but, at least you can make sense of the endings with it ... I do want to replay ME3 though with this in mind...
Because MT assumes Hackett is indoctrinated and that the Reapers can be defeated conventionally. The Reapers do set up scapegoats, Collectors in ME2 and Cerberus in ME3 as their goals shift and change. Hackett is the biggest proprietor that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally, though their battle tactics from previous cycles stresses this is not the case. Hackett repeatedly stresses that they cannot be defeated conventionally, then directs you to gather all the forces to lead an assault on a small contingent of Reapers in the grand scheme of the galaxy. Just look at the galaxy map just before the finaly push. They are literally in every system.
Btw when you do please feel free to inform me of anything that; refutes or supports this theory. I am curious to see.
By Scapegoats I mean as someone in charge of the military who does something purposely bad to draw attention, imagine if a 'rogue' general initiated a war on another species... or accidentely sabatoged a mission or something... An internal scapegoat inside of the military outside of the actual enemies. While the majority of the military is focused on the one, another can seemingly get away with any small deeds... (if useful at all) and I won't be able to start another play through if I can get myself to play it until Thursday... whenever I want to start a playthrough... flashes of the ending pop in my head
JustinElenbaas wrote...
jumpingkaede wrote...
This makes a lot of sense.
Including why Hackett sent Shepard on all those meaningless quests in ME1 when Shepard needed to be stopping Saren.
"Shepard... can you fly to this remote moon and talk to this minor criminal warlord for us? We don't think our ALLIANCE NEGOTIATORS can handle it."
Huh, very good point. That actually makes a good deal of sense. I hadn't thought back that far. Delaying/stalling tactics on Hackett's part.
It may make sense, but it still has points that can be refuted. I would have to do a complete run through of Me1-3 to fully formulate this theory, which I do not have the time to do. I encourage people to add to it, or detract from it as they see fit. If people can find holes in it, or ways to debunk it, I would love to hear it and would actively debate and acknowledge sound arguments. Remember this is all speculation. Bioware are the only ones who know.
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