278 réponses à ce sujet

[Jamie9]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Here watch the video...



You see the an explosion, burst of blue light from the beam, and then it shifts to red...

I watched both explosions repeatedly, the Crucible Explosion and Citadel Beam.  I'm sorry I do not see it, could you provide me with a time marker?

Compare it with this one. Shows you it in slow motion. Sorry for sending you so many helpful videos.

[LordRaptor]

wheelierdan wrote...

for hacket to be indoctrinated wouldnt he have to um, come into contact with reaper tech? he always sends people to do his work. does this fun theory have an origin moment? did i miss it?

It is very plausible it happened some time between ME1 and ME2 Arrival, when Hackett sends Shepard to meet his good friend Dr. Kenson, thus resulting in contact with Object Rho, and Shepard passing out for 2 days. 

[LordRaptor]

Jamie9 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Here watch the video...



You see the an explosion, burst of blue light from the beam, and then it shifts to red...

I watched both explosions repeatedly, the Crucible Explosion and Citadel Beam.  I'm sorry I do not see it, could you provide me with a time marker?

Compare it with this one. Shows you it in slow motion. Sorry for sending you so many helpful videos.

Ah, now I see it.  That is very telling.  That could very well be Shepard being transported back to London.

[LordRaptor]

GBGriffin wrote...

wheelierdan wrote...

for hacket to be indoctrinated wouldnt he have to um, come into contact with reaper tech? he always sends people to do his work. does this fun theory have an origin moment? did i miss it?

Who cares anymore? Every theory ever is correct.

I feel for you, but we're trying...somewhere inside ourselves we feel the need to figure this out, have it all make sense.

[wheelierdan]

if we are entertaining the idea hackett was indoctrinated just for fun it would have to have happened a long time ago, since we know that the stronger the forced indoctrination the less higher brain function the person retains, and hes a brilliant admiral. it would have to be subtle and slight. that takes time.

[Jamie9]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Ah, now I see it.  That is very telling.  That could very well be Shepard being transported back to London.

Only problem with that is it does appear on all 3 endings, not just destroy. I don't really know what it signifies myself but it's so fast, it's only there for a split second - it must mean something.

[GBGriffin]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

wheelierdan wrote...

for hacket to be indoctrinated wouldnt he have to um, come into contact with reaper tech? he always sends people to do his work. does this fun theory have an origin moment? did i miss it?

Who cares anymore? Every theory ever is correct.

I feel for you, but we're trying...somewhere inside ourselves we feel the need to figure this out, have it all make sense.

I understand that, but, then again, I subscribe that not everything in life has to "make sense" beyond what it actually is. Nothing dictates that any of this stuff HAS to make sense other than faith in BioWare and making sense of disappointment.

[GBGriffin]

wheelierdan wrote...

if we are entertaining the idea hackett was indoctrinated just for fun it would have to have happened a long time ago, since we know that the stronger the forced indoctrination the less higher brain function the person retains, and hes a brilliant admiral. it would have to be subtle and slight. that takes time.

He has a scar on his face, right? You know who else has scars? TIM.

Therefore, any evidence against this theory is false because that is undeiably true.

[D.Sharrah]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Here watch the video...



You see the an explosion, burst of blue light from the beam, and then it shifts to red...

I watched both explosions repeatedly, the Crucible Explosion and Citadel Beam.  I'm sorry I do not see it, could you provide me with a time marker?

Explosion 1:17-1:39
Blue Burst @ 1:40-1:42 (can be seen travelling down the beam)
Red Shift @ 1:43

[LordRaptor]

GBGriffin wrote...

wheelierdan wrote...

if we are entertaining the idea hackett was indoctrinated just for fun it would have to have happened a long time ago, since we know that the stronger the forced indoctrination the less higher brain function the person retains, and hes a brilliant admiral. it would have to be subtle and slight. that takes time.

He has a scar on his face, right? You know who else has scars? TIM.

Therefore, any evidence against this theory is false because that is undeiably true.

I am by no means passing this off as absolute truth.  I have repeatedly stated this is for consideration and rife with speculation.  Anyone is free to refute it, argue it, debate it, debunk it, but please let's keep the discussions civil and poignant, not destructive or detracting.

[balance5050]

Jamie9 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Ah, now I see it.  That is very telling.  That could very well be Shepard being transported back to London.

Only problem with that is it does appear on all 3 endings, not just destroy. I don't really know what it signifies myself but it's so fast, it's only there for a split second - it must mean something.

Yeah, also Sheps body is hidden in the smoke, if he changed positions that fast we may as well believe it was all a dream.

[GBGriffin]

JustinElenbaas wrote...


I am by no means passing this off as absolute truth. I have repeatedly stated this is for consideration and rife with speculation. Anyone is free to refute it, argue it, debate it, debunk it, but please let's keep the discussions civil and poignant, not destructive or detracting.

I just supported your theory with evidence that seems too convenient to be mere coincidence.

That's how these things go. You present a theory and people find ways to make it work.

[LordRaptor]

balance5050 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Ah, now I see it.  That is very telling.  That could very well be Shepard being transported back to London.

Only problem with that is it does appear on all 3 endings, not just destroy. I don't really know what it signifies myself but it's so fast, it's only there for a split second - it must mean something.

Yeah, also Sheps body is hidden in the smoke, if he changed positions that fast we may as well believe it was all a dream.

This theory is by no means perfect and/or above the speculation people believe debunk IT.  There are many possibilites, and only Bioware knows the truth and they are not sharing.  This theory is for your consideration only.

[Palathas]

Out of the Indoctrination Theory and this one I'd have to say I believe this one to be more plausible. The thing that gets me is that whole crucible thing. I've said before that I think it has always been completed in each cycle and used but it works for the Reapers rather than against. Liara also continued it's existence by adding it to her information device before they knew what the Catalyst was.

[LordRaptor]

GBGriffin wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...


I am by no means passing this off as absolute truth. I have repeatedly stated this is for consideration and rife with speculation. Anyone is free to refute it, argue it, debate it, debunk it, but please let's keep the discussions civil and poignant, not destructive or detracting.

I just supported your theory with evidence that seems too convenient to be mere coincidence.

That's how these things go. You present a theory and people find ways to make it work.

If that was your intention then by all means please speculate.  I originally read your post as intentionally instigating argument.

[LordRaptor]

Palathas wrote...

Out of the Indoctrination Theory and this one I'd have to say I believe this one to be more plausible. The thing that gets me is that whole crucible thing. I've said before that I think it has always been completed in each cycle and used but it works for the Reapers rather than against. Liara also continued it's existence by adding it to her information device before they knew what the Catalyst was.

Thus our cycle has unintentionally perpetuated the cycle for the future lol.  Once again we based our technological advancements off of others, initially attributing it to the Protheans, a la the Mass Relays and Citadel.  Then afterward placing it back to species innumerable, instead of all the way to the base source of...the Reapers.

[balance5050]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Ah, now I see it.  That is very telling.  That could very well be Shepard being transported back to London.

Only problem with that is it does appear on all 3 endings, not just destroy. I don't really know what it signifies myself but it's so fast, it's only there for a split second - it must mean something.

Yeah, also Sheps body is hidden in the smoke, if he changed positions that fast we may as well believe it was all a dream.

This theory is by no means perfect and/or above the speculation people believe debunk IT.  There are many possibilites, and only Bioware knows the truth and they are not sharing.  This theory is for your consideration only.

Duly noted

[Deuterium_Dawn]

Except that Sovereign didn't need the crucible to seize control of the relay network in ME1. Vigil completely fails to miention this supposed "prothean lock" when he's telling you about the keepers and the alterations to the Citadel's signal, which would be completely unnecessary if they could just lock the relay. They altered the keepers, but the key to that was the reapers were gone and thus unaware of the changes. Nothing suggests they were capable of altering the Citadel to the point the Reapers couldn't fix it themselves. Sovereign certainly doesn't seem to have any problems until you show up.

The idea of the Crucible as a Reaper trap is appealing however(it would explain why the reapers ignore the citadel until the last moment despite it apparently being so easy to capture and why they ignored the crucible's construction, and the whole "technology we don't understand but are going to use anyway and just attribute it to the past cycle(s)" certainly fits the pattern) and is probably the only why I'll ever be happy with the Crucible's existence. But there's nothing to suggest the reapers "needed" the Crucible to do anything, much less destroy their carefully constructed trap in the Citadel and mass relays.

And where exactly is Hackett supposed to have been exposed to indoctrination? Unlike Shepard, he hasn't made a career out of close contact with Reaper artifacts or the Reapers themselves, and he wasn't on Earth when they landed, he was with the fleet. The Crucible and how it's handled are just bad writing, nothing more.

Modifié par Deuterium_Dawn, 11 avril 2012 - 03:08 .

[DiE231]

Doesn't make sense.

You're saying that either way it goes, regardless of what color we choose, regardless if we break free from indocrination(IF shepard is indocrinated), we already did everything the Reapers wanted.

In other words, they win in every single ending.


BW is good when it comes to screwing up finales, but i have a hard time believing they would go all out hardcore like this.

Modifié par DiE231, 11 avril 2012 - 03:12 .

[LordRaptor]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Except that Sovereign didn't need the crucible to seize control of the relay network in ME1. Vigil completely fails to miention this supposed "prothean lock" when he's telling you about the keepers and the alterations to the Citadel's signal, which would be completely unnecessary if they could just lock the relay. They altered the keepers, but the key to that was the reapers were gone and thus unaware of the changes. Nothing suggests they were capable of altering the Citadel to the point the Reapers couldn't fix it themselves. Sovereign certainly doesn't seem to have any problems until you show up.

The idea of the Crucible as a Reaper trap is appealing however(it would explain why the reapers ignore the citadel until the last moment despite it apparently being so easy to capture and why they ignored the crucible's construction, and the whole "technology we don't understand but are going to use anyway and just attribute it to the past cycle(s)" certainly fits the pattern) and is probably the only why I'll ever be happy with the Crucible's existence. But there's nothing to suggest the reapers "needed" the Crucible to do anything, much less destroy their carefully constructed trap in the Citadel and mass relays.

And where exactly is Hackett supposed to have been exposed to indoctrination? Unlike Shepard, he hasn't made a career out of close contact with Reaper artifacts or the Reapers themselves, and he wasn't on Earth when they landed, he was with the fleet. The Crucible and how it's handled are just bad writing, nothing more.

Excellent arguments.  Let me see if I can adequately address them.  Sovereign was incapable of altering the changes itself.  As evidenced by it's use of Saren at the end of ME1 to rewrite the Keepers.  This could mean that a connection to the Catalyst VI, being of light, (whatever it is) could not be directly established by Sovereign.  Perhaps the signal it sent to the Citadel awoke the Catalyst from hibernation, as the Reapers hibernate between cycles, but because the Catalyst is incorporeal it could not physically activate the Citadel Relay, a function previously attributed to the Keepers.  Thus the Reapers must find another way to gain control of the Citadel.

As for Hackett, it is my belief he was indoctrinated somewhere between ME1 and ME2: Arrival.  This could have been facilitated by his good friend, Dr. Amanda Kenson.  However Hackett is an anomoly.  Nothing is known about him, his past, or his activities, yet we trust him implicitly and never once, Paragon or Renegade question his orders.  That does not mean we don't refuse them in some cases.

Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 03:21 .

[LordRaptor]

DiE231 wrote...

Doesn't make sense.

You're saying that either way it goes, regardless of what color we choose, regardless if we break free from indocrination(IF shepard is indocrinated), we already did everything the Reapers wanted.

In other words, they win in every single ending.


BW is good when it comes to screwing up finales, but i have a hard time believing they would go all out hardcore like this.

They did tell you it would be bittersweet, and some people would hate it, likely those who did not accept the Reapers manipulating players.  It is a brilliant twist, Bioshock proved that.

[LordRaptor]

unintentional doublepost, disregard.

Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 03:20 .

[DiE231]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

DiE231 wrote...

Doesn't make sense.

You're saying that either way it goes, regardless of what color we choose, regardless if we break free from indocrination(IF shepard is indocrinated), we already did everything the Reapers wanted.

In other words, they win in every single ending.


BW is good when it comes to screwing up finales, but i have a hard time believing they would go all out hardcore like this.

They did tell you it would be bittersweet, and some people would hate it, likely those who did not accept the Reapers manipulating players.  It is a brilliant twist, Bioshock proved that.

That's not bittersweet, it's bitterbitterstupid.

[LordRaptor]

DiE231 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

DiE231 wrote...

Doesn't make sense.

You're saying that either way it goes, regardless of what color we choose, regardless if we break free from indocrination(IF shepard is indocrinated), we already did everything the Reapers wanted.

In other words, they win in every single ending.


BW is good when it comes to screwing up finales, but i have a hard time believing they would go all out hardcore like this.

They did tell you it would be bittersweet, and some people would hate it, likely those who did not accept the Reapers manipulating players.  It is a brilliant twist, Bioshock proved that.

That's not bittersweet, it's bitterbitterstupid.

Having learned Bioware pulled a Kansas City Shuffle on you, after realizing the Reapers defeated you (Bioware claimed they could win) as well as having the "golden" ending, high EMS destroy to leave the ending open would definitely be bittersweet.  Enjoying the twist, but sad that the Reapers defeated you, and hope that your Shepard surviving may mean more to come.  Just theories, no need for you to believe.

[LordRaptor]

More discussion: The scientists on Ilos knowing nothing of the Crucible. Is this due to it not being a secret Prothean project and instead being a Reaper weapon? Ilos was the most secretive project the Protheans conducted, as far as we know, yet they have no inclination of the Crucible.  This could just mean the two projects were developed separately, each in secret, yet many of the Protheans on Ilos are among the most brilliant minds their society has to offer.  They would be necessary to the development and completion of the Crucible project in their cycle.

Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 11 avril 2012 - 03:49 .