496 réponses à ce sujet

[Orumon]

Very organised.

I'm not a fan of the current endings, but I do respect that some of those who DO enjoy the endings aren't trolls or idiots.

[Hexi-decimal]

Orumon wrote...

Very organised.

I'm not a fan of the current endings, but I do respect that some of those who DO enjoy the endings aren't trolls or idiots.

Vice Versa.

I have really enjoyed reading some of the IDT stuff.  Very interesting stuff.  Shame really that Bioware has pretty much shot that possibility down.  I liked the idea as much as the current endings.

Well let me clarify, I enjoyed the ending(s) for what they could be.  Their sparsness was not cool, and while I can appreciate the idea of making up in my head what happened, I feel that that approach wasn't the best of idea's in this particular case.

[SilentK]

fle6isnow wrote...

Le bump, with a very interesting article. Thank you beccalikestoast for the link! It is one of THE best articles I've read about not just the endings, but Mass Effect as a whole.

galacticpillow.com/2012/04/02/editorial-the-reapers-advocate-a-different-take-on-the-mass-effect-3-ending

As Becca says, the article focuses on the plot from a hard scifi and astrobiological perspective as well as touching on some issues such as thematics later on.

I'll update the first post later when I have more links, but I hope you guys all read this!

That was a interesting read, thanks for posting it    =)

[Zix13]

ardensia wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

No, nothing you can say will convince me to like the ending. I would like to be able to understand why someone would like the ending, which is why I bother looking at these things. I can understand why certain people like twilight, even if I think it's ridiculous. The ending to Mass Effect 3? Not so much. 

Given your above quote, it seems pointless for us to attempt a rebuttle on your dismantling of the sample article presented; it would simply be an argument to try and convince you the endings are likeable, and you have already stated that is not an option within the current realm of consideration. 

However, please clarify; we are attempting to build a consensus. Are you looking for a personal account that doesn't attack other views on the ending as valid, or are you looking for someone to provide proof that the endings are amazing? Or maybe something else completely. You originaly asked for a semi-valid argument. The article fle6isnow provided is, while maybe not 100% proof, a semi-valid argument, and is both very well broken down and provides external links to secondary sources.

But if you're looking for a personal account that doesn't attack other approaches to the ending, then obviously this article isn't going to cut it. Perhaps we could provide you with a different sample from the original post. However, it will still be a personal account, and thus subject to perhaps more opinion than you implied you wanted in both your original statement, and one you have made since.

No, I won't like the ending, it was flawed in too many ways for me to overlook. But some people do, I do not understand why. Basically anything with a reasoned argument, like that link, that there was something correct about the ending as opposed to "it was awesome, what are ya'll talking about." Don't get  me wrong, that article was the type of thing I was looking for, just the arguments were easily defeasible. 

I would also like to say the "headcanon" argument for leaving the ending open is ridiculous. It basically means "Don't put an ending in so I can make it up". If you have to "headcanon" parts of the ending, it is horribly flawed. 

Modifié par Zix13, 15 avril 2012 - 05:54 .

[HoldTheLine]

fle6isnow wrote...

HoldTheLine wrote...

I'm sorry if this sounds weird, but I'm new around here so bear with me. Does this thread support that the endings stay open, or do you guys support clarification DLC?

Yeah, what others said--this thread itself doesn't really take a stance, and I'm pretty much just a librarian of sorts for the links on here.

Personally, though, I'm fine either way. If they keep it open, great, more space for me to headcanon. If not, then I'm treating the EC DLC as "yay, free content!" I'm even ok with a totally different alternate ending, again, from the perspective of "yay, new content!" If I don't like it, I can just uninstall and go back to headcanoning, anyway. =p

Thanks to all who replied I'm a huge supporter of getting clarification as to what went down after the endings, but not necessarily changing them, so I just wanted to see your opinions.

[fle6isnow]

Zix13 wrote...


No, I won't like the ending, it was flawed in too many ways for me to overlook. But some people do, I do not understand why. Basically anything with a reasoned argument, like that link, that there was something correct about the ending as opposed to "it was awesome, what are ya'll talking about." Don't get  me wrong, that article was the type of thing I was looking for, just the arguments were easily defeasible. 

I would also like to say the "headcanon" argument for leaving the ending open is ridiculous. It basically means "Don't put an ending in so I can make it up". If you have to "headcanon" parts of the ending, it is horribly flawed. 

@The part in bold, personally, that's how I feel about a lot of the Retaker's points. Like, "oh the galaxy is destroyed because of supernovas"--no, the explosion animation was obviously different from Arrival, so we can't say the same thing happened. "Oh, you're just following the whims of a genocidal maniac"--no, the choices are coming from the Crucible, not the Catalyst, and Starbrat is just explaining it. Each choice is telling the genocidal maniac off, although you can agree or disagree with Starbrat's evaluation of the choices. Each of these is personal interpretation, so if you don't agree with my interpretation on things, we just have to agree to disagree on that.

On your headcanon argument, like I say in my Kishotenketsu thread, sometimes the point is to leave it up to the audience to answer questions. You may argue that it shouldn't have been the way to end the Mass Effect saga, sure--people have excellent points about it, and I will agree with some of those points and disagree with others. However, if you mean to say that open-ended stories are in and of itself flawed and invalid, then no, I think you are horribly, terribly, utterly wrong.  A lot of my favorite movies, books, stories, etc. are open ended--Citizen Kane, Inception, Fatherland, The Graduate, The Giver, In the Grove, stuff like that.  You may not like it personally, but it's a perfectly valid way to end a story.

[Orenen]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

fle6isnow wrote...

Editing. The forums do not like copy-paste from word. =/

But I hide behind artistic integrity! I shall kept the links the same, but clarify and provide closure. Lol.

Some clarity would be awesome!

I don't think it's funny, BioWare...

Modifié par Orenen, 15 avril 2012 - 09:10 .

[lillitheris]

Hudathan wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

I don't know why I bother, in this thread, but you are ignoring the fact that, by and large, complaints are more that they didn't write an ending.

If you want to “win”, you have to argue better.

No, YOU are ignoring the fact that some of of us share different opinions when it comes to the ending. Our argument is that we have plenty of reasons why we like the ending, that's why we came here and compiled our thoughts.

So, why the random badmouthing? You said “ Instead, let's accuse Bioware of intentionally 'betraying' us for daring to write their own ending to their story.”

This, as you should know, isn't the problem. If you want to argue, you should do it better. If you don't want to argue…well, don't.

I was hoping this would be better than the other threads.

Modifié par lillitheris, 15 avril 2012 - 09:24 .

[Zix13]

fle6isnow wrote...

Zix13 wrote...


No, I won't like the ending, it was flawed in too many ways for me to overlook. But some people do, I do not understand why. Basically anything with a reasoned argument, like that link, that there was something correct about the ending as opposed to "it was awesome, what are ya'll talking about." Don't get  me wrong, that article was the type of thing I was looking for, just the arguments were easily defeasible. 

I would also like to say the "headcanon" argument for leaving the ending open is ridiculous. It basically means "Don't put an ending in so I can make it up". If you have to "headcanon" parts of the ending, it is horribly flawed. 

@The part in bold, personally, that's how I feel about a lot of the Retaker's points. Like, "oh the galaxy is destroyed because of supernovas"--no, the explosion animation was obviously different from Arrival, so we can't say the same thing happened. "Oh, you're just following the whims of a genocidal maniac"--no, the choices are coming from the Crucible, not the Catalyst, and Starbrat is just explaining it. Each choice is telling the genocidal maniac off, although you can agree or disagree with Starbrat's evaluation of the choices. Each of these is personal interpretation, so if you don't agree with my interpretation on things, we just have to agree to disagree on that.

 
I never agreed with the galaxy being destroyed by exploding mass relays. It is not particularily unlikely that the destruction would be quite different than hitting one with an asteroid. I do believe, however, that the destruction of the mass relays will result in the deaths of trillions due to the lack of resources available in Sol and most of the other areas that have been devastated by reapers. Concerning starchild: you are listening to the catalyst who doesn't seem to have any reason for telling you how to use the catalyst. It could just let you stand there and let the reapers win. Also the "following the whims of the genocidal maniac" largely comes from Shepard not being able to question it. Many of the most solid and indesputable retake points are that the ending is flawed from a narrative standpoint. Much of the "this contradicts lore" argument is based on the fact that the contradiction is not explained.

fle6isnow wrote...
On your headcanon argument, like I say in my Kishotenketsu thread, sometimes the point is to leave it up to the audience to answer questions. You may argue that it shouldn't have been the way to end the Mass Effect saga, sure--people have excellent points about it, and I will agree with some of those points and disagree with others. However, if you mean to say that open-ended stories are in and of itself flawed and invalid, then no, I think you are horribly, terribly, utterly wrong.  A lot of my favorite movies, books, stories, etc. are open ended--Citizen Kane, Inception, Fatherland, The Graduate, The Giver, In the Grove, stuff like that.  You may not like it personally, but it's a perfectly valid way to end a story.

I have little knowledge of a number of those. However, take Inception for example. The ending was concluded, literally the only open ended bit was the top spinning at the end, which was just a little thing to get you wondering about it. You didn't have to make a whole bunch of the ending up to make sense of it. Also, mass effect is a character driven, linear narrative that has, up to the end, followed the usual "story of a hero" structure. Breaking this at the end is an indesputable error that breaks the unspoken reader-writer contract. 

Modifié par Zix13, 15 avril 2012 - 09:30 .

[fle6isnow]

Le bump, added some new links, retitled some sections, and reorganized some of the other links. I think in the future I will post the links I added on the bumps, so that people don't have to go digging through the other links to see which ones they haven't read.

[webhead921]

The galactic pillow editorial is by far my favorite response to the endings. It's good stuff!

[fle6isnow]

Added two things by FemmeShep:

Mass Effect 3’s Misunderstood Ending (The Crucible) by FemmeShep
http://social.biowar...m/3840629/blog/

The Choices at the end were not all created by AI/Starchild? by FemmeShep
(Discussion on the same topic as her blog post above)
http://social.biowar.../index/10888946

[UnstableMongoose]

fle6isnow wrote...

Added two things by FemmeShep:

Mass Effect 3’s Misunderstood Ending (The Crucible) by FemmeShep
http://social.biowar...m/3840629/blog/

The Choices at the end were not all created by AI/Starchild? by FemmeShep
(Discussion on the same topic as her blog post above)
http://social.biowar.../index/10888946

Mad props to FemmeShep to her change in attitude and very interesting analysis. Cool to see someone venturing out like that past their initial impressions/opinion.

[fle6isnow]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

Mad props to FemmeShep to her change in attitude and very interesting analysis. Cool to see someone venturing out like that past their initial impressions/opinion.

Yeah, I loved talking with her about the endings, especially on my Kishotenketsu thread. Even if she still hates the endings, we had a nice time discussing things and looking at the endings from different angles. Too bad she isn't on here anymore. =/

[Orumon]

Hexi-decimal wrote...

Orumon wrote...

Very organised.

I'm not a fan of the current endings, but I do respect that some of those who DO enjoy the endings aren't trolls or idiots.

Vice Versa.

I have really enjoyed reading some of the IDT stuff.  Very interesting stuff.  Shame really that Bioware has pretty much shot that possibility down.  I liked the idea as much as the current endings.

Well let me clarify, I enjoyed the ending(s) for what they could be.  Their sparsness was not cool, and while I can appreciate the idea of making up in my head what happened, I feel that that approach wasn't the best of idea's in this particular case.

Pretty much the main source of my problem with them. However, personally I feel that several more endings and more ways to get them would have been nice too. Sure, I'm a bit more demanding than most people with regards to the end.

[Hudathan]

lillitheris wrote...

So, why the random badmouthing? You said “ Instead, let's accuse Bioware of intentionally 'betraying' us for daring to write their own ending to their story.”

This, as you should know, isn't the problem. If you want to argue, you should do it better. If you don't want to argue…well, don't.

I was hoping this would be better than the other threads.

What random badmouthing? You're quoting me out of context from a conversation I had with someone else talking about something else.

I'll give you an example of what I was talking about. There was a 50 min video on YouTube where this guy literally spent half of it accusing Bioware of being a trusted friend who "came to his house and stole from him" as an analogy for the ending.

He then went on to spend the other half of the video talking about what he thought should have been the ending and then once again accused Bioware of being "childish" for not stepping up, admitting their mistakes, and then changing the ending according to what he wanted.

Within the first day of the video's release, it gets linked over and over on the frontpage with endless comments about how "Bioware stole from us and betrayed us" from many users.

So don't tell me this type of behavior isn't the problem when it's all over the place. And I'm certainly not badmouthing anyone if I choose to stick to one thread where I give my opinions on why I think this type of behavior is wrong.

Zix13 wrote...

I asked for compelling reads supporting the ending as opposed to " I like it". There are a lot of links in that list and the vast majority were closer to the second category.

Even if that were true, it would still be no different from the majority of "I hate it" threads, which it's not.

This thread isn't called "you're wrong for not liking the ending and here is why." We're not trying to change anyone's minds, we're just showing why we have reasons to feel differently about the ending. You're free to think that none of those reasons make sense to you.

The point is to show that this is not a fanbase vs Bioware issue and that there are plenty of us who feel that there is a lot to like about the ending.

[ed87]

I can acknowledge that people enjoyed the endings, in the same way that i acknowledge people enjoy eating chicken feet. However, i dont take it up a notch and eat chicken feet to find out why people like it. Same deal here.

I will never call out people that like the ending. Thats like calling out for people in a Chinese restaurant to ask why they like chicken feet.

[Controller_B]

To me, if you enjoyed the ending, you're telling game companies that they can rush their writing, ****** on their narrative all to meet a corporate deadline without any backlash.

You have an ending that was written at the last second, that revolves around a philosophical theme that wasn't intended by the original author, that has cut content which leads to plotholes...

Bioware and gaming in general isn't well served by sticking up for this. Even if you liked the ending.

With that said, it's important that Bioware know what was good about the ending in order to become better writers and developers. Whether negative or positive, Bioware should realize that they make games where people genuinely care about the narrative. Where a good story is a must and not just a pleasant surprise.

[Sparda Stonerule]

I just... thank you. This puts me at ease somewhat as someone who likes most of the ending.

[Hudathan]

Controller_B wrote...

To me, if you enjoyed the ending, you're telling game companies that they can rush their writing, ****** on their narrative all to meet a corporate deadline without any backlash.

You have an ending that was written at the last second, that revolves around a philosophical theme that wasn't intended by the original author, that has cut content which leads to plotholes...

Bioware and gaming in general isn't well served by sticking up for this. Even if you liked the ending.

With that said, it's important that Bioware know what was good about the ending in order to become better writers and developers. Whether negative or positive, Bioware should realize that they make games where people genuinely care about the narrative. Where a good story is a must and not just a pleasant surprise.

Nobody but the Bioware team knows how the endings were written. The rest of us can only speculate because we weren't there.

There is no 'original author' when it comes to a project like Mass Effect. When Mac Walters became lead writer, nobody complained about the story of ME2 just because Drew Karpyshyn left. The 'original' ending people like passing around on these boards is nothing but an idea that never made it out of the concept phase, and many valid reasons have already been brought up on why it wouldn't have been a good ending anyway.

If Bioware has to tip toe their way around their stories from now on, I don't see how that would NOT be bad, especially for those of us who liked the ending and don't want them to second guess their storytelling.

Bioware are still human and their works can always be improved in some way. They experiment with something new with every game in the search for that 'sweet spot' where everyone can have fun with their products. For me, there is a lot to like about the current ending, but that doesn't make it perfect. I get the feeling that the eventual extended cut should have been the ideal way for them to tell this story to begin with.

ed87 wrote...
I can acknowledge that people enjoyed the endings, in the same way that i acknowledge people enjoy eating chicken feet. However, i dont take it up a notch and eat chicken feet to find out why people like it. Same deal here.
I will never call out people that like the ending. Thats like calling out for people in a Chinese restaurant to ask why they like chicken feet.

Chicken feet are pretty tasty. And even if someone had valid personal reasons why they would never eat them, it doesn't make them good or bad on an objective level.

[Vigil_N7]

The fact that you used the three different colors related to the ending is kind of self-defeating...

A lot of the "plot holes" people bring up aren't plot holes, but one thing you can NOT excuse, pro or anti ender, is the recycled endings which were exactly the same, just different colors.

[Hudathan]

Why an extended cut is better than a brand new ending. by vit-tronart

http://social.biowar.../index/11454763

Vigil_N7 wrote...

The fact that you used the three different colors related to the ending is kind of self-defeating...

A lot of the "plot holes" people bring up aren't plot holes, but one thing you can NOT excuse, pro or anti ender, is the recycled endings which were exactly the same, just different colors.

What's wrong with poking fun at the people who can't get over the RGB thing?

The endings are not the same, and are more than just different colors. That's precisely what a lot of people here have been trying to say.

[webhead921]

I'm an overall fan of the ending on a conceptual level, but the copy paste cutscenes come across as lazy

[fle6isnow]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

The fact that you used the three different colors related to the ending is kind of self-defeating...

A lot of the "plot holes" people bring up aren't plot holes, but one thing you can NOT excuse, pro or anti ender, is the recycled endings which were exactly the same, just different colors.

Yeah, actually this is what I agree with the Retakers/anti-enders on. The ending animations are too similar, which is why you don't feel the impact and difference each choice will give you. But hopefully that is something that will be fixed in the EC.

[SiriusXI]

It is so sad if you have to use so much energy just to convince yourself that the ending does not suck. By now, more than half of the ending that you "like" is not anymore in the GAME, but in your HEADS. You like the ending because you imagine the things instead of seeing them ingame.

I like zhe ending too if I imagine that IT is true! Sure, great ending, just too bad it is in my head. You are just fooling yourselves. You paid 60+$ for your own imagination...