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[JPN17]

fle6isnow wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

1) Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)?

2) How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst? When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on? Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?

3) Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth.

4) Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use?

Please explain? (or direct me to a workable explanation, if that's easier)

For a humorous take on these questions, see JShepppp's thread.

For a more serious-ish take, I guess I can answer some of that? I've rearranged the order of your questions so that it makes sense with my explanation. This post will contain lots of speculation from everyone! Or just me. My warning from the first page (that ardensia so helpfully quotes above) applies.

1) My thoughts on that is that the Catalyst is dormant between cycles until Sovereign wakes it up via the signal. Starbrat needs his nap, after all. I call this the "sleep mode" hypothesis. It's possible that it is awake; however it is still tied to the mostly stationary Citadel, so it would still need a Reaper who can fly around, checking on things.  I think the "sleep mode" explanation makes more sense.

2) This would be explained by the "sleep mode" hypothesis. The Protheans presumably sneaked in after the Reapers left, so they were able to mess with the Keepers while the Catalyst had its 40,000 winks. Sovereign then comes along and sees that the galaxy is ripe for plucking. He tries to turn on the signal, but fails. I can just imagine poor Sovy bashing haplessly upon a remote, but the TV Catalyst doesn't turn on, hence the Reapers do not come marching in from dark space. Now he has to figure out whether his remote is broken, or the TV is broken.

3) Sure, Sovy could've gone in to the Citadel or to the Reapers when he first learned of the remote signal failure. However, it kind of is a better idea to investigate the cause first. He doesn't know if the Protheans just messed with the signal or if they did other things--they could have left a trap for the Reapers, they could have found and disabled the Catalyst altogether, they could have left less incomprehensible warnings, letting the current cycle prepare even more... anyway the point is, going in blind was a risk, so Sovereign needed to investigate using indoctrinated organics.

Does it really say Sovereign took thousands of years? I'm thinking it would be closer to hundreds. Or maybe, as JShepppp says, Sovy just isn't really bright, lol. Either way, he finally gets a clue during the events of Mass Effect, and he figures it's safe enough to let the Reapers in. Unfortunately for poor Sovy, he is killed before activating the Citadel relay (and the Catalyst, too, I guess), but presumably after he signals the rest of the Reaper armada to get their butts in anyway.

4) They had that in ME1 too, in the Council chambers. Who knows. WE ARE BEYOND YOUR COMPREHENSION.

Nice try, but using your imagination to explain away these plot holes is not an answer. All you're doing is making excuses for poor writing. The fact that you even have to attempt to explain something this important proves that because it's so damaging to Mass Effect's story.

[fle6isnow]

JPN17 wrote...

Nice try, but using your imagination to explain away these plot holes is not an answer. All you're doing is making excuses for poor writing. The fact that you even have to attempt to explain something this important proves that because it's so damaging to Mass Effect's story.

Sure, it's a plot hole, but the fact that I can come up with solutions to it doesn't mean it's unfixable in the EC, like so many people are claiming. Here are some other solutions:

1) It is not directly controlling the Reapers or the Citadel--it controls them through indoctrination just as the Reapers control Saren and TIM through indoctrination. The Reapers think they're independent, but they're really just advancing the goals of the Catalyst.

2) It was able to control the relay directly, but when the protheans messed with the Keeper signal, it also cut the Catalyst off, putting the control in the organics' hands instead.

Again, if you read JShepppp's thread, there are soooooooo many other plot holes/inconsistencies in the series, and in sci-fi in general. To others, it may have been game-breaking, but to me, it's just "lol, yet another plot hole, whatever--add it to the pile."

[JPN17]

fle6isnow wrote...
Sure, it's a plot hole, but the fact that I can come up with solutions
to it doesn't mean it's unfixable in the EC, like so many people are
claiming. Here are some other solutions:

True, but the fact that Bioware couldn't be bothered to explain it in a game that they had 2 years to create doesn't leave me very optimistic that we'll even get an explanation let alone one that makes sense. If you couldn't tell I don't have much faith in Bioware at this point.

fle6isnow wrote...
1) It is not directly controlling the Reapers or the Citadel--it
controls them through indoctrination just as the Reapers control Saren
and TIM through indoctrination. The Reapers think they're independent,
but they're really just advancing the goals of the Catalyst.

This is actually an interesting idea. Not sure how you'd control giant hive mind space ships though. Part of their programming upon creation? It would be something that would need to be fleshed out more, but it's something I could possibly buy if done right, although I still don't like the idea of the reapers just being tools for the god kid.

fle6isnow wrote...
2) It was able to control the relay directly, but when the protheans
messed with the Keeper signal, it also cut the Catalyst off, putting the
control in the organics' hands instead.

Possible, but again I don't see the point of the keepers at all if god kid was there the whole time. Even if your whole idea of the catalyst hibernating were true, the idea of sovereign sending a signal to the citadel to tell the keepers to open the relay instead of telling the catalyst itself to wake up and open the relay just seems, i don't know, illogical I guess. Why have an indoctrinated race of organics when it obviously isn't needed? To me this shows the huge disconnect between the writing from the first to the third game and despite the fact they said planned out a trilogy from the start, after they finished ME1 they sat around and went now what?

fle6isnow wrote...
Again, if you read JShepppp's thread, there are soooooooo many other
plot holes/inconsistencies in the series, and in sci-fi in general. To
others, it may have been game-breaking, but to me, it's just "lol, yet
another plot hole, whatever--add it to the pile."

Yeah I do hear you about that. The reason this issue bugs me so much is because Mass Effect is a great game (it can even stand alone which the other ones really can't) and I hate that just a 10 minute span from its sequel can absolutely ruin it for me. I do respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with everything, I just wish Bioware had taken the time to answer all the questions in game like they said they would. How could they not know that this would be the reaction? Just mind boggling.

[ardensia]

 

Hudathan wrote...

I didn't expect it personally, but was pleasantly surprised when Bioware pulled a choice-based ending based on big themes and big ideas. I also knew immediately that it would not be everybody's cup of tea.

 

I was actually kind of thrilled when they did this, though I also knew immediately that a lot of people wouldn't so keen on it. I picked up on the synthetics vs. organics theme really early in the series, but I honestly never thought they would follow through with it and make it fully realized. Having them come right out and say it at the end... may not have been the best way to approach it, but I was glad they didn't just sweep it off to the side.

But that's just one of the big themes presented at the end of the game. Another one... the value of life... was just a great question to bring up, and can be applied on a far smaller scale than synthetic versus organic life. But it's never an easy question to answer, and consequently is unlikely to sit well with your audience if you've successfully conveyed the full weight of the decision. Personally, I don't see that as a mark against the ending, but I can see why it would make a lot of people displeased with it.

fle6isnow wrote...

JPN17 wrote...

Nice try, but using your imagination to explain away these plot holes is not an answer. All you're doing is making excuses for poor writing. The fact that you even have to attempt to explain something this important proves that because it's so damaging to Mass Effect's story.

Sure, it's a plot hole, but the fact that I can come up with solutions to it doesn't mean it's unfixable in the EC, like so many people are claiming. Here are some other solutions:

1) It is not directly controlling the Reapers or the Citadel--it controls them through indoctrination just as the Reapers control Saren and TIM through indoctrination. The Reapers think they're independent, but they're really just advancing the goals of the Catalyst.

2) It was able to control the relay directly, but when the protheans messed with the Keeper signal, it also cut the Catalyst off, putting the control in the organics' hands instead.

Again, if you read JShepppp's thread, there are soooooooo many other plot holes/inconsistencies in the series, and in sci-fi in general. To others, it may have been game-breaking, but to me, it's just "lol, yet another plot hole, whatever--add it to the pile."

Yeah, my speculations run in line with the second theory, or possibly a combination of the two. Since much of the Catalyst's function both within the Citadel and in relation to the Reapers is never clearly defined in the series, it's difficult to conclusively answer any questions about why it does the things it does.

If the Catalyst doesn't have "full awareness" of things happening on the Citadel, or perhaps only percieves organics on the Citadel the way we perceive foreign bacteria in our bodies, then it's perfectly reasonable for a Prothean strike team to infiltrate it and cause some serious damage to its systems before the Catalyst is even aware there's a threat. If the Keeper signal is tied directly to the Catalyst's signal-sending capabilities, it's quite possible that, intentionally or not, the Prothean team completely mucked up the Catalyst's Reaper communication abilities.

Regarding plot holes. Yes, the series has always had them. And jumps in logic. And tons of incredibly fortunate coincidences. It's still a great story and, for the most part, extremely well presented. But perfect? Nah. I have yet to find a perfect story.

Modifié par ardensia, 19 avril 2012 - 10:07 .

[The Night Mammoth]

ardensia wrote...

I was actually kind of thrilled when they did this, though I also knew immediately that a lot of people wouldn't so keen on it. I picked up on the synthetics vs. organics theme really early in the series, but I honestly never thought they would follow through with it and make it fully realized. Having them come right out and say it at the end... may not have been the best way to approach it, but I was glad they didn't just sweep it off to the side.

No, you didn't. 


The Catalyst is not talking about the various situations we've had in the past involving synthetics (which were even then, very, very minor sub plots), it's talking about a very specific situation that until the last five minutes of the story simply did not exist. All synthetics wanting to kill every organic life form, as an inevitibility it is trying to prevent. That did not exist until the Catalyst brought it up. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 19 avril 2012 - 10:21 .

[SilentK]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

ardensia wrote...

I was actually kind of thrilled when they did this, though I also knew immediately that a lot of people wouldn't so keen on it. I picked up on the synthetics vs. organics theme really early in the series, but I honestly never thought they would follow through with it and make it fully realized. Having them come right out and say it at the end... may not have been the best way to approach it, but I was glad they didn't just sweep it off to the side.

No, you didn't. 


The Catalyst is not talking about the various situations we've had in the past involving synthetics (which were even then, very, very minor sub plots), it's talking about a very specific situation that until the last five minutes of the story simply did not exist. All synthetics wanting to kill every organic life form, as an inevitibility it is trying to prevent. That did not exist until the Catalyst brought it up. 

Hmm.... I started thinking more about synthetics vs organics as soon as EDI came on stage. Joker is important to me so their relationship got me thinking about it straight away. Only got more weight after Rannoch. Never saw it coming in the way it did regarding the ending, but I think you can see the general theme coming up before hand.

[ardensia]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

ardensia wrote...

I was actually kind of thrilled when they did this, though I also knew immediately that a lot of people wouldn't so keen on it. I picked up on the synthetics vs. organics theme really early in the series, but I honestly never thought they would follow through with it and make it fully realized. Having them come right out and say it at the end... may not have been the best way to approach it, but I was glad they didn't just sweep it off to the side.

No, you didn't. 

The Catalyst is not talking about the various situations we've had in the past involving synthetics (which were even then, very, very minor sub plots), it's talking about a very specific situation that until the last five minutes of the story simply did not exist. All synthetics wanting to kill every organic life form, as an inevitibility it is trying to prevent. That did not exist until the Catalyst brought it up. 

Please consider this. You don't have to agree with it, and I understand if you think I'm just pulling stuff out of my a**, but if BioWare wanted to tell a plausible story, they could not present synthetics as an unarguable villain through all of ME1 without following it up. Even Saren, racist jerk that he was, had reasons behind his motives that predated his indoctrination.

Bad guys and good guys are not so clean-cut in real life as we'd like to think they are. For BioWare to put so much work into making the world in Mass Effect 1 believable and realistic, and then to throw a blanket over all synthetic life and label it as "evil" is either bad writing or implication that they intended to do more with it.

Considering the quality of the writing for just about every other aspect of the world in ME1, I had to come to the conclusion that they wanted to do more of it. The geth are far too strong of a presence for them to simply overlook such terrible stereotyping for the entirety of the game. It also renders the scene with the geth worshiping the Reapers in their temple on Feros pointless. Why bother to present them portraying such an organic experience as worship if they're just going to be evil bad guys for the rest of the series? It's easier both in game mechanics and storytelling just to have you keep shooting them. And you'd get to do so without having that uncomfortable feeling that maybe you shouldn't gun someone down in their place of worship, even if they are your enemy.

Minor things, yes. But BiowWare loves playing with minor things well before they drop the inevitable bomb on the plot. It's good storytelling to hint at ideas you intend to develop later, even if those hints are unlikely to be grasped by your audience. Before I picked up Mass Effect, I already had a concept of BioWare as good storytellers. So when I ran across these points in ME1, I had to decide if I thought it was bad storytelling or if they had done it with an intended purpose. I chose the latter. And given the amount of tears shed by ME fans before they ever reached the Catalyst, I don't think that choice was unjustified.

[The Night Mammoth]

SilentK wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

ardensia wrote...

I was actually kind of thrilled when they did this, though I also knew immediately that a lot of people wouldn't so keen on it. I picked up on the synthetics vs. organics theme really early in the series, but I honestly never thought they would follow through with it and make it fully realized. Having them come right out and say it at the end... may not have been the best way to approach it, but I was glad they didn't just sweep it off to the side.

No, you didn't. 


The Catalyst is not talking about the various situations we've had in the past involving synthetics (which were even then, very, very minor sub plots), it's talking about a very specific situation that until the last five minutes of the story simply did not exist. All synthetics wanting to kill every organic life form, as an inevitibility it is trying to prevent. That did not exist until the Catalyst brought it up. 

Hmm.... I started thinking more about synthetics vs organics as soon as EDI came on stage. Joker is important to me so their relationship got me thinking about it straight away. Only got more weight after Rannoch. Never saw it coming in the way it did regarding the ending, but I think you can see the general theme coming up before hand.

You could see the general theme coming from early on in Mass Effect 1. 

Even then, it started as a minor sub-plot, and remained a minor sub-plot. What the Catalyst is talking about is completely different to what you see with the Geth and EDI. 

[fle6isnow]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

You could see the general theme coming from early on in Mass Effect 1. 

Even then, it started as a minor sub-plot, and remained a minor sub-plot. What the Catalyst is talking about is completely different to what you see with the Geth and EDI. 

But Drew Karpyshyn himself says that they were planning to put in organics vs. synthetics theme at the ending somehow.

Relevant quote:

Of course, some of you are also pinging me to find out what the “original” ending of the series was when we started planning out the trilogy. Sorry, but that’s not something I’m even going to attempt to answer. The collaborative creative process is incredibly complicated, and the story and ideas are constantly evolving as you go forward. Yes, we had a plan, but it was very vague. We knew we wanted to focus on some key themes and bring in certain key elements: organics vs synthetics; the Reapers; the Mass Relays. Beyond that, we didn’t go into detail because we knew it would change radically as the game continued to evolve.

It's not well-explained by the endings, but the synthetics vs. organics thing is far from over just because you made the quarians and geth all buddy buddy on Rannoch. Just because there is peace NOW, doesn't mean there will be peace later. For example, just because you cured the genophage, it doesn't mean that the krogans will keep helping out--Wreave could very well attack all the salarians after the war, or Wrex might be overthrown by the rest of the krogans who are displeased with his peaceful reforms. In the same vein, just because the quarians are letting the geth help them in war time, doesn't mean that automatically erases 300 years of bad blood between them. Vendetta tells us that the patterns of evolution and dissolution are cyclical, and the same conflicts break out in each cycle. Peace and order is fleeting--conflict and chaos eventually returns.

Thinking about it more, and after reading the stuff in the final hours app, I had an epiphany about why the synthetics vs. organics thing didn't bother me too much. Synthetics vs. organics is merely the frame of the ending--the main theme is still about self-determination. In the end, it doesn't really matter what the Reapers' motivation was. Whatever their reason is, they are absolutely, 100% wrong from the point of view of organics. The Crucible is the symbol for self-determination of the galaxy. As Rei says, it is the weapon that forces the Catalyst to surrender and give in to Shepard, but it still only does 3 things--control, destroy, or synthesis. This reflects not the Catalyst's will, but the will of the organics from previous cycles. Some wanted to control the Reapers, others wanted to destroy them, but this cycle--ostensibly the first one where synthetics and organics made peace and worked together--developed synthesis. The Catalyst is merely there to explain the choices--I believe it is an unreliable narrator in that it does put its own spin on the consequences and makes certain choices seem better than others. But ultimately, you can disagree with it which color skittles you choose:

Do you Control and take the power of the Reapers for yourself? This, to me, is the cautious route--you acknowledge that maybe the Reapers have a point about the problem, but you can also want to let life prove themselves to you first.

Do you agree with the Reapers, and therefore pick Synthesis, blurring the artificial barriers between organic and synthetic? I mentioned earlier in the thread that even people like Chakwas believe that synthetics aren't real life, and in fact she says that the reason Shepard and Adams sympathize with the geth is because they are "practically machines" themselves. Synthesis will remove one major cause of war, not all the causes of war. It won't remove diversity, since each species is still different from the other, but it will, at least, increase the understanding between the different species. (I'm going by Ieldra2's description of synthesis here, which I more or less agree with.)

Or do you Destroy, and truly let the galaxy be self-determining, but at the cost rejecting all the Reaper tech including, unfortunately, some of your allies?

In the end, my Shepards always choose Destroy, because even the most Paragon one believed that there is no price too high to pay for true self-determination. It is unfortunate that the geth and EDI die (although maybe the devs are hinting that at high EMS, they don't die?), but--to take a page out of Javik's book--their sacrifice will be honored in the coming empire.

[pikey1969]

fle6isnow wrote...

Let's just keep the discussions civil in here, ok? We've been doing really well on this thread, so let's keep it that way! Don't feed the trolls and all that.


WARNING (just because warning labels are fun to write)

The following threads may contain "Lots of Speculation from Everyone." Parental supervision is advised. Speculation may be incompatible with certain medical and mental conditions. Talk to your doctor and see if Speculation is right for you.

Modifié par pikey1969, 20 avril 2012 - 12:37 .

[fle6isnow]

pikey1969 wrote...

fle6isnow wrote...

Let's just keep the discussions civil in here, ok? We've been doing really well on this thread, so let's keep it that way! Don't feed the trolls and all that.


WARNING (just because warning labels are fun to write)

The following threads may contain "Lots of Speculation from Everyone." Parental supervision is advised. Speculation may be incompatible with certain medical and mental conditions. Talk to your doctor and see if Speculation is right for you.

www.youtube.com/watch

[pikey1969]

fle6isnow wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

fle6isnow wrote...

Let's just keep the discussions civil in here, ok? We've been doing really well on this thread, so let's keep it that way! Don't feed the trolls and all that.


WARNING (just because warning labels are fun to write)

The following threads may contain "Lots of Speculation from Everyone." Parental supervision is advised. Speculation may be incompatible with certain medical and mental conditions. Talk to your doctor and see if Speculation is right for you.

www.youtube.com/watch

"Right."

[fle6isnow]

pikey1969 wrote...

fle6isnow wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

fle6isnow wrote...

Let's just keep the discussions civil in here, ok? We've been doing really well on this thread, so let's keep it that way! Don't feed the trolls and all that.


WARNING (just because warning labels are fun to write)

The following threads may contain "Lots of Speculation from Everyone." Parental supervision is advised. Speculation may be incompatible with certain medical and mental conditions. Talk to your doctor and see if Speculation is right for you.

www.youtube.com/watch

"Right."

INTERNET COOKIE FOR YOU!

Edit: to be perfectly clear, since sarcasm and humor do not always translate well over the internet--that WAS a joke. I am mocking not the anti-ender/Retakers, but "Speculation" in the format of stupid American TV and drug commercial warnings. But I see how that can be misconstrued, so I took it out of the OP. Anyone who says that I am mocking or condescending towards the "other side" can just look to all my posts in this thread to see that this is not the case.

Modifié par fle6isnow, 20 avril 2012 - 01:56 .

[fle6isnow]

Blah, sorry for the double post, but here's today's update:

I challenge those who hate the ending to read this by sp0ck 06
(Skip past all the dismissals and ending hate and go to the part where Rei actually starts discussing his views--p.16.)
http://social.biowar...dex/11538181/16

"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the... by Made Nightwing & drayfish
(Not pro-ending, but has great discussion, especially by optimistickied.)
http://social.biowar.../index/11435886

Why the Codex says we can't win conventionally. by A0170
http://social.biowar.../index/11550547

Modifié par fle6isnow, 20 avril 2012 - 01:52 .

[KingZayd]

fle6isnow wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

1) Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)?

2) How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst? When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on? Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?

3) Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth.

4) Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use?

Please explain? (or direct me to a workable explanation, if that's easier)

For a humorous take on these questions, see JShepppp's thread.

For a more serious-ish take, I guess I can answer some of that? I've rearranged the order of your questions so that it makes sense with my explanation. This post will contain lots of speculation from everyone! Or just me. My warning from the first page (that ardensia so helpfully quotes above) applies.

1) My thoughts on that is that the Catalyst is dormant between cycles until Sovereign wakes it up via the signal. Starbrat needs his nap, after all. I call this the "sleep mode" hypothesis. It's possible that it is awake; however it is still tied to the mostly stationary Citadel, so it would still need a Reaper who can fly around, checking on things.  I think the "sleep mode" explanation makes more sense.

2) This would be explained by the "sleep mode" hypothesis. The Protheans presumably sneaked in after the Reapers left, so they were able to mess with the Keepers while the Catalyst had its 40,000 winks. Sovereign then comes along and sees that the galaxy is ripe for plucking. He tries to turn on the signal, but fails. I can just imagine poor Sovy bashing haplessly upon a remote, but the TV Catalyst doesn't turn on, hence the Reapers do not come marching in from dark space. Now he has to figure out whether his remote is broken, or the TV is broken.

3) Sure, Sovy could've gone in to the Citadel or to the Reapers when he first learned of the remote signal failure. However, it kind of is a better idea to investigate the cause first. He doesn't know if the Protheans just messed with the signal or if they did other things--they could have left a trap for the Reapers, they could have found and disabled the Catalyst altogether, they could have left less incomprehensible warnings, letting the current cycle prepare even more... anyway the point is, going in blind was a risk, so Sovereign needed to investigate using indoctrinated organics.

Does it really say Sovereign took thousands of years? I'm thinking it would be closer to hundreds. Or maybe, as JShepppp says, Sovy just isn't really bright, lol. Either way, he finally gets a clue during the events of Mass Effect, and he figures it's safe enough to let the Reapers in. Unfortunately for poor Sovy, he is killed before activating the Citadel relay (and the Catalyst, too, I guess), but presumably after he signals the rest of the Reaper armada to get their butts in anyway.

4) They had that in ME1 too, in the Council chambers. Who knows. WE ARE BEYOND YOUR COMPREHENSION.

Thanks for responding, I truly appreciate it. If there are sensible answers to these questions, then I would like to have them so I too can go back to loving the series. Personally if it turns out the Starchild is a liar or an illusion then that would do it for me.



4) That was the very same one i was referring too. These points are all ME1 things. the ending of ME3 (if taken at face value) seems to clash most with ME1 information 


1) Why not have the starchild wake up periodically himself and investigate? The organic races are living on the Citadel itself (part of its own body). Surely that's an easier way to do things? Also, why be dormant all that time. The reapers don't seem to really care about  power efficiency. (mentioned at some point in the codex too) Also, the chain for activating the Citadel relay would be 1 step smaller, since Sovereign still has to send the signal to the Citadel, before that signal is sent to the Keepers. (Keepers evolved to only obey Citadel signals)

2) The protheans mess with the signal the Citadel sends to the keepers apparently. So the reapers can send signals to the Citadel, and the Citadel can still send signals to the reapers ("I control the reapers", not " I used to control the reapers"), but now the Citadel can't send signals to the Keepers, at least not the "open the damn relay" signals. The keepers still maintain the Citadel.. whether that's automatic, or if they're controlled by other signals, who knows?

3) The arrogance displayed by Sovereign in the game, indicates he wouldn't be afraid of a trap that could end the reapers. As far as he's concerned the idea is ridiculous. He is afraid though, that by himself, he is vulnerable which is why he's been trying to do stuff from the shadows all this time. It's implied that he's responsible for the Rachni wars. Rachni wars were 2000 years ago. Supposedly, the only reason Sovereign acted so boldly now was out of desperation. Sovereign doesn't seem stupid to me.

I think it's more likely though  that the Reapers are controlled by the Starchild through indoctrination (if the starchild is really there), seeing as how that's how the cool kids control things in this universe and that TIM spent his time researching indoctrination and was convinced he could control the reapers. It did seem like he was onto something, if a little deluded as how to complete the last step.

And thanks for the link to that other thread, it's a bit of an entertaining read.

Modifié par KingZayd, 20 avril 2012 - 07:42 .

[fle6isnow]

KingZayd wrote...

Thanks for responding, I truly appreciate it. If there are sensible answers to these questions, then I would like to have them so I too can go back to loving the series. Personally if it turns out the Starchild is a liar or an illusion then that would do it for me.



4) That was the very same one i was referring too. These points are all ME1 things. the ending of ME3 (if taken at face value) seems to clash most with ME1 information 


1) Why not have the starchild wake up periodically himself and investigate? The organic races are living on the Citadel itself (part of its own body). Surely that's an easier way to do things? Also, why be dormant all that time. The reapers don't seem to really care about  power efficiency. (mentioned at some point in the codex too) Also, the chain for activating the Citadel relay would be 1 step smaller, since Sovereign still has to send the signal to the Citadel, before that signal is sent to the Keepers. (Keepers evolved to only obey Citadel signals)

2) The protheans mess with the signal the Citadel sends to the keepers apparently. So the reapers can send signals to the Citadel, and the Citadel can still send signals to the reapers ("I control the reapers", not " I used to control the reapers"), but now the Citadel can't send signals to the Keepers, at least not the "open the damn relay" signals. The keepers still maintain the Citadel.. whether that's automatic, or if they're controlled by other signals, who knows?

3) The arrogance displayed by Sovereign in the game, indicates he wouldn't be afraid of a trap that could end the reapers. As far as he's concerned the idea is ridiculous. He is afraid though, that by himself, he is vulnerable which is why he's been trying to do stuff from the shadows all this time. It's implied that he's responsible for the Rachni wars. Rachni wars were 2000 years ago. Supposedly, the only reason Sovereign acted so boldly now was out of desperation. Sovereign doesn't seem stupid to me.

I think it's more likely though  that the Reapers are controlled by the Starchild through indoctrination (if the starchild is really there), seeing as how that's how the cool kids control things in this universe and that TIM spent his time researching indoctrination and was convinced he could control the reapers. It did seem like he was onto something, if a little deluded as how to complete the last step.

And thanks for the link to that other thread, it's a bit of an entertaining read.

I don't know if Starbrat is outright lying, but at the very least, he is an unreliable narrator. He's definitely putting a negative spin on the destroy choice because it will be bad for the Reapers, and he builds up the other two choices because it would be better.

1) That point could be because non-Citadel races could still be developing synthetic life, so the Starbrat needs Sovereign to check for those races. For example, right now, we humans aren't part of any galactic society, but there is definitely a lot of research into AI--Watson, Deep Blue, Blue Brain Project, Numenta... this is all very interesting stuff, and still far from true AI, but I think it is likely that we will develop AI before we develop more advanced spaceflight.

2) Yeah, who knows indeed! Hopefully this can be explained in the EC, but I find it fun to puzzle over.

3) I wouldn't say afraid--to me, Sovereign seemed more cautious. But yeah, he does get arrogant at the end, probably because with the information he gleaned from the beacon and Ilos, he thinks that organics still have no chance.

And yes, I do think indoctrination of the Reapers by the Catalyst is likely. The info we find on Sanctuary is interesting to think about too--is it really suggesting that the Reapers can be controlled, or are Henry Lawson and co. already indoctrinated, meaning that their findings are false?

[GuardianAngel470]

 I disagree that this theme was present throughout the trilogy and I will summarize it thus:

organics vs. synthetics not synthetics vs. organics.

In case you don't recognize the distinction, I will elaborate.

I will now, on the assumption you read at least the first part of the above link, clarify my perspective.

In the ME franchise it has been very firmly established that synthetics become violent in the interest of self preservation. Organics on the other hand become violent in the interest of racial stereotyping, misinformation, and a general lack of empathy.

Many would argue that Synthetics are the wild card but the truth is the opposite. Synthetics are the accepted quantity. You know with relative certainty what they will do.

Organics are the wild card. Their emotions make them dangerous and could be perceived as a threat. Despite this it has been firmly established that organics are ALSO capable of peace. Which ultimately would become the long-term outcome is up for debate, which is why they are the wild card.

However, in the event that these two cannot coexist, the synthetics have (and have always had) the option of reclusion. In the Morning War it appears they didn't take this option however AFTER it they did. It is established fact that only ~1% of the galaxy has been explored. That means that approximately 
23,326,325,452,904 cubic light years of space exist that synthetics could theoretically exist in. 

Technological singularities are nonsense in that context. Synthetics could ensure they never again see an advanced organic.

That is why this ending stinks. It's not my biggest problem with it, but it is the cause of my biggest problem.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 20 avril 2012 - 08:36 .

[OneWithTheAssassins]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I liked Waterworld...

I love Waterworld!

[Veloric Wu]

I understand the reason of you pro-enders'. Thanks for creating this thread.

With all respect due though, I have one question: do you believe it's possible to continue the story of Mass Effect based on current endings of Mass Effect 3?

[sargon1986]

fle6isnow wrote...

(updated April 19, 2012; 7pm GMT-8)

I think some of us "pro-enders" are tired of typing the same thing over and over, so here's a link-dump of all the threads/posts/blogs about why people liked the ending. There are some threads that are not necessarily defending the endings per se, but include posts and discussion about why people liked the endings. I have also included threads that have interesting discussions on the possibilities and implications of the endings, regardless of whether the OP liked the endings or not.

I'm not including threads that just go "I liked the ending" and give no reason/discussion whatsoever, nor the threads that are just pro and anti people just sniping as each other, as that isn't very helpful.

Ultimately, this thread isn't meant to prove anyone right or wrong, or to convince anyone to like the endings or not. You can read every post here, disagree with the interpretations, and come out still hating the ending anyway, just as I can read through the posts nitpicking the "plot holes" and find reasonable explanations as to why that happened and still like the ending anyway. This thread is just meant to be a collection of the discussions out there so that they don't get drowned in the sea of hate.

If anyone wants to type their reasons why they liked the endings in this thread, they are definitely free to do so. Let's just keep the discussions civil in here, ok? We've been doing really well on this thread, so let's keep it that way! Don't feed the trolls and all that.


WARNING (just because warning labels are fun to write)

The following threads may contain "Lots of Speculation from Everyone." Parental supervision is advised.


-------------------------

Personal Views/Analyses


Mass Effect 3: My defense of Bioware's ending, as is. Discuss logic, lore,...
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11189024/1

My take on ME3, the ending, etc. - SPOILER WARNING by AtreiyaN7
social.bioware.com/269892/blog/211643/

Why Synthesis was a Good Choice for My Shepherd by ardensia
social.bioware.com/3564527/blog/212369/

Probably the only one here but... I loved the endings. By Dragoonlordz
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9905757

Why I love the ending, why I disagree with (most) plotholes, and why we should have... by firebreather19
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11226595

My new thoughts on ending and symbolism by tenojitsu
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11143176/1

Post by LstOfTheBrunnenG
http://hardforum.com...&postcount=1007

Reasons why the ending is good. by GiarcYekrub
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11267537/1

An explanation of the ending since its not going to change by chammie
http://social.biowar...ndex/11272956/1

I hated the ending, but I also love it by sp0ck 06
http://social.biowar.../index/10071195

Meaningful Sacrifice, Or How I Learned to Love Clarification by lillitheris
http://social.biowar.../index/11289479

My plea to those who still support the ending by AxisEvolve
(Not pro-ending, but has some discussion.)
http://social.biowar...ndex/11277068/1

Mass Effect 3 Endings inspired by Issac Asimov's "Foundation" Series? by SaudadeNovo
http://social.biowar.../index/11119190

Giving players a choice, doesn't have to be a fair choice (ending) by OhoniX
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11351245/1

The galaxy is saved... isn't it? by Sekani
http://sekani2.com/4...-saved-isnt-it/ 

The Subjectivity of Art by Flayed Man of A-Ton
(Not pro-ending, but has good discussion)
http://social.biowar...ndex/11361335/1

I challenge those who hate the ending to read this by sp0ck 06
(Skip past all the dismissals and ending hate and go to the part where Rei actually starts discussing his views--p.16.)
http://social.biowar...dex/11538181/16

"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the... by Made Nightwing & drayfish
(Not pro-ending, but has great discussion, especially by optimistickied.)
http://social.biowar.../index/11435886


-------------------------

How Endings Make Sense WRT Lore and/or Narrative


The Ending was Foreshadowed but just Delivered really, really badly. By ChildOfEden
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11147817/1

We're not supposed to know how certain actions play out. By Hudathan
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9868168

Very Long Analysis of ME3 Ending, aka why the ending is great (spoilers) by Skyfyre
www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.361199-Very-Long-Analysis-of-ME3-Ending-aka-why-the-ending-is-great-spoilers

Kishotenketsu—why I liked the Mass Effect 3 endings. by fle6isnow
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10603297/1

The Crucible and the destruction of the relays makes narrative sense by My Chemical Bromance
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11216760

Why the mass relays had to be destroyed by Isichar
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11129694

Why the Relays Had to Go (long) by Evil Minion
http://social.biowar.../index/11175025

Stargazer Theory aka BW's Narrative Technique in DA2/ME3 by GuyIncognito
http://social.biowar...index/11189046/

Dr. Solus Love: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the End. by inko1nsiderate
http://social.biowar.../index/10270489

The Reapers Cannot Be Stopped Conventionally by boardnfool86
http://social.biowar.../index/11329962

What is Deus ex Machina you ask ... and how is it bad writing? by Excl
(Not a "pro-ending" thread, but Geneaux486 has posts in here explaining why he does not see the Catalyst as Deus Ex Machina)
http://social.biowar.../index/11290368

The ME3 Ending Controversy by Press Start To Continue
http://press-start-t...ing-controversy

Why the Codex says we can't win conventionally. by A0170
http://social.biowar.../index/11550547


-------------------------

Exploring "Plot Holes", Logic, and the Aftermath of the Choices


Why the Catalyst's Logic is Right... by JShepppp
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10761785/1

For those confused about the Catalyst's logic by terdferguson123
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10569003/1

*SPOILER* The ending being good or not... by ABjerre
(Someone who agree with the Reapers? Le gasp, he's indoctrinated! =p)
http://social.biowar.../index/11281991

Mass Effect 3’s Misunderstood Ending (The Crucible) by FemmeShep
http://social.biowar...m/3840629/blog/

The Choices at the end were not all created by AI/Starchild? by FemmeShep
(Discussion on the same topic as her blog post above)
http://social.biowar.../index/10888946

TIM being on the Citadel during the ending shouldn't be a plot hole? By Hudathan
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10594940

Things people forget that they call "plot holes"
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11142960

I'm afraid we need to use... Math (Weekes is right). By MyChemicalBromance
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11158454/1

Galaxy map, FTL and the problem of getting the stranded fleets home. by a.m.p.
(Not pro-ending, but reiterates and expounds upon the same points as MyChemicalBromance's thread above.)
http://social.biowar...ndex/10943661/1

Why the Mass Relays' Explosion Did NOT Destroy the Galaxy by HBC Dresden
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11157441

De-Bunking Mass Relays Destroying Everything by Dobiog101
(With pictures!)
http://social.biowar.../index/11300813

Shepard Was Lucky - A Humorous Take on the ME Plot by JShepppp
(Funny thread about ALL the plot holes/inconsistencies in the ME series)
http://social.biowar...ndex/10592397/1

What is the Synthesis? An extrapolation for a plausible scenario
http://social.biowar...ndex/10515916/1

Out of the dark age: An ME3 aftermath worldbuilding project by Ieldra2
http://social.biowar...ndex/10726795/1

The Omega 4 Relay: Anomaly or Hint? (Discussion of Post-Relay Technology) by MyChemicalBromance
http://social.biowar.../index/11314964

The Ending Bioware tried to make, and the Ending they actually made by Nobrandminda
http://social.biowar...ndex/11431347/1

Why "extended cut" and "clarification" is better, then... by vit-tronart
http://social.biowar.../index/11454763


-------------------------

Q&A or FAQ format threads


People who like the ending: Why is it good? By chester013
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11199425/1

For those who liked the ending --please help by sH0tgUn jUliA
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10849637/1

A question for those who enjoyed the ending... by KinomotoSun84
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11379582/3

For those of you who believe the ending wasn't bad... by doug.fox
http://social.biowar...ndex/11073142/1


-------------------------

Articles and Podcasts


Editorial – The Reaper’s Advocate: A Different Take on the Mass Effect 3 Ending by guest blogger Rei
(A must-read, IMO. One of the best articles not only about the end, but about Mass Effect in general, tying things to hard sci-fi concepts.)
galacticpillow.com/2012/04/02/editorial-the-reapers-advocate-a-different-take-on-the-mass-effect-3-ending

Editorial – Mass Effect 3: Ending Analysis by Master Pillow
http://galacticpillo...nding-analysis/

A Socratic Debate: A Dialogue Between a Paragon and a Renegade by Robert G.
www.blisteredthumbs.net/2012/03/socratic-debate-para-rene/

The Ending Of MASS EFFECT 3 Is Spectacular by Devin Faraci
http://badassdigest....-is-spectacular

Do Geth Dream of Electric Shepards? by Jordan Groves
http://www.ogeeku.co...ctric-shepards/

Reviewers' Talk: Mass Effect 3, the ending, the narrative, the controversy by Arthur Gies
http://www.theverge....t-3-ending-talk

Ars Technica: Did Bioware actually lie about the ending to Mass Effect 3? By Kyle Orland
http://arstechnica.c...ss-effect-3.ars

Why It's Time to Leave the Mass Effect 3 Ending Alone by Matt Peckham
http://techland.time...3-ending-alone/

Game Critics podcast
www.gamecritics.com/dylan-collins/gamecritics-com-podcast-episode-71-mass-effect-3-sequels

Game Informer Show podcast
http://www.gameinfor...w-round-up.aspx

PC Gamer US podcast on the endings
http://www.pcgamer.c...ect-3-spoilers/

G33kWatch podcast on the ending debate.
http://www.g33kwatch...kwatch-podcast/

The Veteran Gamers podcast on the ending debate. (1h 40m in)
http://o35s.podbean....-mass-effect-3/ 


-------------------------

I will take this chance to say thank you to everyone whose links I have included, whether "pro-ending" or not.

If you have a link you want to include in the OP, or any suggestions about how to categorize or organize the links, please let me know!

(Edit: artistic integrity! I kept the links the same, but clarified and provided closure. And now there are more colors too! Lol. Also Bioware forums, YU NO POST PROPERLY?!? It keeps taking out my pretty colors whenever I update. D=)

And just for lulz...

If you are a BSN poster and have input for the OP – we respect your opinion and want to hear it. We’re committed to address your constructive feedback as best we can. In return, I’d ask  that you help us do that by supporting what I truly believe is the best thread fle6isnow has yet crafted. I urge you to do your own research: read the links, finish it and tell us what you think. Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good thread as a whole. Trust that we are doing our damndest, as always, to address your feedback. As artists, we care about our fans deeply and we appreciate your support.

Thank you for your feedback – we are listening.

Nope, the ending sux.

[Biotic Budah]

Listen, if you have to read that much into an ending and explain why this and why that then the ending was not that good for those who are not as enlightened or uplifted. Would you have been satisfied if Return of the Jedi were an RPG and had an ending like this? I don't want to know about what this thing symbolizes or that thing infers, I just want an ending that is believable and logical. Not logical for someone who writes fanfic, but logical from the standpoint of someone who has played all these games, has multiple playthroughs, and was looking forward to some legitimate closure. If Shepard dies, he/she dies, but this ending seemed to be a cop out. If they do a movie trilogy of this game can you imagine anyone buying that ending in a movie theater?

I respect your opinions, but I think you're trying too hard to explain why that ending was good. Having to work that hard means it probably wasn't and while I don't agree with your opinion, I do respect your opinion.

I think the one uniting theme for both sides of the debate is the fact that we all love the game. We're all invested in it. You're defending something you love, but so are the Retakers. I think that speaks volumes about the games impact on the people who have played it.

[earlmobile]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 I disagree that this theme was present throughout the trilogy and I will summarize it thus:

organics vs. synthetics not synthetics vs. organics.

In case you don't recognize the distinction, I will elaborate.

I will now, on the assumption you read at least the first part of the above link, clarify my perspective.

In the ME franchise it has been very firmly established that synthetics become violent in the interest of self preservation. Organics on the other hand become violent in the interest of racial stereotyping, misinformation, and a general lack of empathy.

Many would argue that Synthetics are the wild card but the truth is the opposite. Synthetics are the accepted quantity. You know with relative certainty what they will do.

Organics are the wild card. Their emotions make them dangerous and could be perceived as a threat. Despite this it has been firmly established that organics are ALSO capable of peace. Which ultimately would become the long-term outcome is up for debate, which is why they are the wild card.

However, in the event that these two cannot coexist, the synthetics have (and have always had) the option of reclusion. In the Morning War it appears they didn't take this option however AFTER it they did. It is established fact that only ~1% of the galaxy has been explored. That means that approximately 
23,326,325,452,904 cubic light years of space exist that synthetics could theoretically exist in. 

Technological singularities are nonsense in that context. Synthetics could ensure they never again see an advanced organic.

That is why this ending stinks. It's not my biggest problem with it, but it is the cause of my biggest problem.

Good blogpost. I havent read the whole thing because i dont have a lot of time right now, but i will give you my thoughts, if you want to hear them. Yes, the geth could have gone to dark space and never bee seen again. Only they didnt. A big part of them decided that wiping out all organics in the galaxy was okay if they gained some technological advancement through sovereign. In my opinion they are not innocent. You are right, they are shown in a very peaceful and sympathetic light in me3 and me2 and legions a big damn hero, but they already decided to attack organics, not while under reaper control, not while their existence was threatened but because they thougth it would advance them. The heretics arent excused by a self-preservation motive. It is never said, but i assume they have certain stereotypes about organics and some of them believed peace was impossible.


There is no such thing as proof, but i think the heretics example speaks for the catalysts assumption.There will always be war because a lot of organics and synthetics simply dont want to coexist. One could argue that the war only started through sovereings interference. But then that's the whole point. If the catalysts logic is flawed its because its making a self-fulfilling prophecy. Organics always fight synthetics (the only others would be the ones javik mentions, which were eradicated by organics) because of the way the cycles work, because of the interference of the reapers. But even if the prophecy becomes self-fulfilling, that is exactly why the cycles have to be broken and the mass relays be destroyed, so galactic culture wont evolve around this line again.

Anyway those are my two cents, thought i throw them in.

Modifié par earlmobile, 20 avril 2012 - 09:52 .

[The Lightspeaker]

With the greatest of respect, I can demonstrate how the ending fails with one simple sentence:

The ending fails because of the fact that a thread like this has to exist trying to detail why the ending works.

I can appreciate that you and a handful of others may like the ending. But the very fact you're having to go to these kind of lengths to document and bring together all your defence of the ending against literally attacks from every single direction means that the ending didn't work. Because if it worked, this thread would not be necessary.

[Veloric Wu]

The Lightspeaker wrote...

With the greatest of respect, I can demonstrate how the ending fails with one simple sentence:

The ending fails because of the fact that a thread like this has to exist trying to detail why the ending works.

I can appreciate that you and a handful of others may like the ending. But the very fact you're having to go to these kind of lengths to document and bring together all your defence of the ending against literally attacks from every single direction means that the ending didn't work. Because if it worked, this thread would not be necessary.

I think we have the truth here.

[PsyrenY]

Of course the ending didn't work as-is. There's not a single person in favor of this thread, who is opposed to the idea of Extended Cut DLC to patch the many holes.

The difference between "pro-enders" and "anti-enders" is simple: The first group knows that with a few additional details explained, the current endings will be fine; the second group wants them thrown out completely and redone from scratch. (Preferably without the Catalyst at all.)

Am I wrong?