496 réponses à ce sujet

[SilentK]

fle6isnow wrote...

Le bump, with a link rebutting some of the "plot holes" in the ending. To be fair, the writer gets some things wrong, like the Illusive Man's eyes not being indicative of Reaper interference, but I agree with a lot of the points.


https://docs.google....bilebasic?pli=1

Not updating the first post yet though, since I only have this one link.

Interesting link  =)  thank you for posting

[feliciano2040]

Yup, THIS is a good topic, thanks a lot OP.

[Link Ashland 614]

That page up there was incredibly good!

[fle6isnow]

Le bump, with the update for today:

Where the Catalyst is foreshadowed, and where Synthesis is Shepard's choice... by Ieldra2
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11737868/

Ah, yes Control and Synthesis....We have dismissed those claims by Dendio1
(not pro-ending, but some people make good points defeinding the control and synthesis choices)
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11727674/1

Threading the Needle: Now With Synthesis by Fapmaster5000
(possibilities on how to fix ending)
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11118797

A Logical Rebuttal to Arguments That Mass Effect 3’s Ending Makes No Sense by Thisiswatson
docs.google.com/document/d/1FfZAVADumKQZeut8EuPjC-LrsjpTfp3VhLr546bLJNc/mobilebasic

Pro-Enders i have a question. by Nonoru
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11733985/1

I also did a bit of reorganizing, putting in the ending suggestions threads in the same category as the Q&A/FAQ threads.

[SirBob1613]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

fle6isnow wrote...

Editing. The forums do not like copy-paste from word. =/

But I hide behind artistic integrity! I shall kept the links the same, but clarify and provide closure. Lol.

Some clarity would be awesome!

I felt the same when i saw the ending

[fle6isnow]

Le bump, with the update for today:

Post about classical Greek Themes of Mass Effect by Smitridel
(Just ignore the sniping in this thread; I found the analysis too interesting not to post.)
http://social.biowar...7106/8#11753552

The Harvesting Analogy: There is poetry in Catalyst's reasoning even if you don't agree with it by laurencium
http://social.biowar.../index/11755272

Why the Catalyst's Truthfulness is Irrelevant for the Crucible by JShepppp
http://social.biowar.../index/11580045

[Rockpopple]

Cool post. Very nice work. I don't like the endings myself but I really appreciate what you've done here.

And I really dig your Javik banner.

[webhead921]

 Bit-gamer article on video game endings, and whether fans are being too harsh towards ME3's ending www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2012/04/30/ending/1

[CDRSkyShepard]

Very organized, much more so than the last time I wandered in here. Good job!

Do you mind if I swipe some of the news articles for my own thread? They're getting a bit rare now that this has gone on for a few months, and often other people find them before I do. ^-^ Pro-ending articles also seem to be hard to find, and I want the most accurate picture of the media as I can get.

Now here's something I haven't seen much debate on, but I think it should be talked about: what would you pro-ending lot think of having more options for the ending? Leave the ones we have intact, but provide more options that would make a heaping portion of Retakers happier, if not happy?

Another note: a good friend of mine actually got to sit down and talk to Casey Hudson once. He said that Casey was so full of passion for this game and story. He also said that Casey talked to him about what they really wanted to do with ME3: they wanted to take the story in different directions, branch the plot out based on the decisions you made, and those branching plot lines would influence the types of endings you would get. He said that paths you would take early in the game could influence the wide range of possible endgame scenarios. Now, if you think he or I are BSing you on this, I'll remind you that this is pretty much exactly what Casey had been saying to the media at this point in time (last summer's Comic Con). If we're to take these words on faith, that means they really, really wanted something more comprehensive to end the franchise than what we got, but somehow couldn't do it. The question that all leads up to is this: Is it really so bad that we "anti-enders" want something more like that? (Yes, most of us understand that doing so at this point would be impossible, but it was what we were expecting when the game came out) Would "pro-enders" be opposed to it if the ending actually was like that in the version we got? All just hypotheticals, but it is something I have been wondering for a while.

Throwing in a bump for y'all's good work.

[Hudathan]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Now here's something I haven't seen much debate on, but I think it should be talked about: what would you pro-ending lot think of having more options for the ending? Leave the ones we have intact, but provide more options that would make a heaping portion of Retakers happier, if not happy?

One of the strengths of the Mass Effect series is scenario design which is honestly the primary strength of Bioware period. There are many things they do well and not so well, but the one crucial trait all their games share is the way their writers force players into difficult situations with no clear solutions.

ME3 could have ended one of two ways. They could either make a simple ending where we win the battle against the Reapers and then give us variations based on war assets and battle decisions, or they could play to their strengths and put in one of those scenarios they're known for.

Obviously they chose to go with the second one and it's not hard to see why. Moments where you make uneasy decisions has always been some of the most memorable stuff from the entire series, and it's thematically appropriate for that to be the structure of the climax. The 'one final choice of all choices' if you will.

To allow 'different' endings would be a passive aggressive way of asking whether or not it's possible to just avoid making difficult decisions, and that simply takes away from the power of that decision-making process. Think about why Virmire was powerful. Now imagine if there was a way to play the game so that Kaidan or Ashley did not have to be sacrificed if you didn't want that particular storyline for your journey.

If that option was available, many people would have simply taken it since it was the 'ideal' choice. I know I would have. But I would have never experienced all the regret I felt as a PERSON since that moment. I chose to help Ashley over Kaidan knowing deep down that it said a lot about me as a human being, and that thought has haunted me ever since.

That Bioware can evoke this emotional response in me with a roleplaying game is amazing, and they do their own material disservice if they allow me a way out of their carefully constructed scenario. They FORCED me into that scenario and I ended up better for it, and that's what good entertainers do and I have to relinquish control and let myself be manipulated in a way.

That's basically how I feel about the whole 'different endings' discussion. It sounds good on paper, to have wildly different outcomes that could add to replay value. But with the way the current ending stands, it would be nothing less than a cop out for people who can't handle what Bioware has always done with the series.

A lot of people are not asking for different endings because they feel that it's an organic part of the game that should have always been there, they're asking for it simply because this time around they didn't like the direction Bioware took with their story after having mostly played along for the past two games with little complaint.

Modifié par Hudathan, 02 mai 2012 - 10:07 .

[BiancoAngelo7]

So this pro ender thread is linking to anything and everything written by "journalists" that defend (or don't) the ending, sometimes even who have then later retracted their original opinions once they realized that toting the EA party line was going to lose them huge swaths of fans and "clicks".

All the while being on page 14 while just one of the now hundreds of threads against the endings is on page 3,746?

Yeah....

3,000

700

40

6

*feeble voice* "But they're a vocal minority aaaaaahhhhhh"

lol

No offense, but....yeaaaah.

But it's okay, link me some more "journalists" telling me how good the ending actually is and how ignorant we all actually are....*facepalm*

[Reorte]

Hudathan wrote...
... quite a bit

I disagree but it's good to get a thoughtful view on the subject. The big difference with the ending is that there is no real choice, unlike Virmire. And also I think that having an ideal outcome to work towards is only a good thing, such as the outcome of ME2. The first time you play through is always the one with the most emotional impact, the one that makes you think about what you did. When I lost a couple of people in ME2 it was gnawing at me, what had I done wrong? Had I done anything wrong? These people lived and died thanks to the decisions I had made, and because BioWare had done such a good job with those characters that really hit. If things turn out badly I want to be angry with myself.

[Hudathan]

The GamerSushi Show Mass Cast.

http://gamersushi.co...e-44-mass-cast/

The GamerSushi Show on the extended cut DLC.

http://gamersushi.co...stop-believing/

Bit Gamer: "I don't deserve a happy Mass Effect 3 ending." by Paul Goodhead

http://www.bit-tech....s-effect-3-end/ 

Reorte wrote...

I disagree but it's good to get a thoughtful view on the subject. The big difference with the ending is that there is no real choice, unlike Virmire. And also I think that having an ideal outcome to work towards is only a good thing, such as the outcome of ME2. The first time you play through is always the one with the most emotional impact, the one that makes you think about what you did. When I lost a couple of people in ME2 it was gnawing at me, what had I done wrong? Had I done anything wrong? These people lived and died thanks to the decisions I had made, and because BioWare had done such a good job with those characters that really hit. If things turn out badly I want to be angry with myself.

An ideal outcome was never going to be an appropriate outcome for the type of conflict we were shown in the 3rd game. What we want and what is plausible are not the same thing. In fact, the galaxy was already a mess before we even reach the ending. What many people want is for THEMSELVES to have a semblance of a perfect ending even though that possibility has already been denied to billions in the story.

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

So this pro ender thread is linking to anything and everything written by "journalists" that defend (or don't) the ending, sometimes even who have then later retracted their original opinions once they realized that toting the EA party line was going to lose them huge swaths of fans and "clicks".

All the while being on page 14 while just one of the now hundreds of threads against the endings is on page 3,746?

Yeah....

3,000

700

40

6

*feeble voice* "But they're a vocal minority aaaaaahhhhhh"

lol

No offense, but....yeaaaah.

But it's okay, link me some more "journalists" telling me how good the ending actually is and how ignorant we all actually are....*facepalm*

You're doing a fine job of that on your own.

Modifié par Hudathan, 02 mai 2012 - 10:48 .

[fle6isnow]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Very organized, much more so than the last time I wandered in here. Good job!

Do you mind if I swipe some of the news articles for my own thread? They're getting a bit rare now that this has gone on for a few months, and often other people find them before I do. ^-^ Pro-ending articles also seem to be hard to find, and I want the most accurate picture of the media as I can get.

Now here's something I haven't seen much debate on, but I think it should be talked about: what would you pro-ending lot think of having more options for the ending? Leave the ones we have intact, but provide more options that would make a heaping portion of Retakers happier, if not happy?

Another note: a good friend of mine actually got to sit down and talk to Casey Hudson once. He said that Casey was so full of passion for this game and story. He also said that Casey talked to him about what they really wanted to do with ME3: they wanted to take the story in different directions, branch the plot out based on the decisions you made, and those branching plot lines would influence the types of endings you would get. He said that paths you would take early in the game could influence the wide range of possible endgame scenarios. Now, if you think he or I are BSing you on this, I'll remind you that this is pretty much exactly what Casey had been saying to the media at this point in time (last summer's Comic Con). If we're to take these words on faith, that means they really, really wanted something more comprehensive to end the franchise than what we got, but somehow couldn't do it. The question that all leads up to is this: Is it really so bad that we "anti-enders" want something more like that? (Yes, most of us understand that doing so at this point would be impossible, but it was what we were expecting when the game came out) Would "pro-enders" be opposed to it if the ending actually was like that in the version we got? All just hypotheticals, but it is something I have been wondering for a while.

Throwing in a bump for y'all's good work.

Of course! Swipe away.

Honestly, I don't think there should be an "easy out" or conventional victory option for beating the Reapers. I agree with what Allan Schumacher has said in some thread (forgot which) that there should be an option to refuse to fire the Crucible, but the Reapers should win. And that's sort of what happens already, except we get a super lame "Crucible is Destroyed" critical mission failure instead of a nice cutscene. I wanted something like the "time-out" scene from Arrival, but bigger, and better, showing the horrors the galaxy goes through while Reaping. Would this make Retakers happy? I don't know... it will still ****** off a lot of them--the ones that feel conventional victory should be possible.

My only problem with the endings are the lack of differentiation and lack of showing what the repercussions of the choices were. What happened to the characters? Will the krogan remain peaceful? Will the rachni be fully integrated into galactic society? I mean, I can headcannon this stuff easily so I don't mind it not being there, but other people prefer it to be spelled out, and they do have a point. This is what I wanted for wildly differing endings, not the changing or adding of the ending choices. And it seems like this is what will happen in the EC, according to my speculation hat.

[Taboo]

Journalists are used to promote something that they like........

They should have no bearing on your own opinion.......

That being said that quoting journalists is going to upset quite a few people because it doesn't mean much.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 02 mai 2012 - 10:47 .

[BiancoAngelo7]

Hudathan wrote...

You're doing a fine job of that on your own.

Hah so pointing out obvious facts to which your only response is to insult me is evidence of me being ignorant? Ok there chief...lol

[Taboo]

You use logic.....that dismisses laziness for artistic integrity.

Saying you can explain away Synthesis at the last minute because we are playing a science fiction game? One that was grounded in logic for the most part.

We're all terrible. One group is simply more vocal.

[fle6isnow]

Rainbows and ponies, you guys. Rainbows. And. Ponies! Or if you prefer, Wrex and Ponies.

@Taboo: I've said many times before that while I do like the idea behind the ending, I felt the presentation was iffy, and the cutscenes afterward were, in fact, bloody horrible. I think we agree on that, and that the EC can fix that, at least.

Edit: and thanks for the links, Hudathan--shall update the first post with those later.

Modifié par fle6isnow, 02 mai 2012 - 10:58 .

[Taboo]

fle6isnow wrote...

Rainbows and ponies, you guys. Rainbows. And. Ponies! Or if you prefer, Wrex and Ponies.

@Taboo: I've said many times before that while I do like the idea behind the ending, I felt the presentation was iffy, and the cutscenes afterward were, in fact, bloody horrible. I think we agree on that, and that the EC can fix that, at least.

Edit: and thanks for the links, Hudathan--shall update the first post with those later.

There is a big difference between suspension of disbelief with time travel and something utterly divine with synthesis. We had a biologist explain that to us.

At some point........the suspension of disbelief stops.

Thats the problem with the endings. It CAN be fixed with the EC.

[Hudathan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Journalists are used to promote something that they like........

They should have no bearing on your own opinion.......

That being said that quoting journalists is going to upset quite a few people because it doesn't mean much.

Is that why the forum gets buried every time a Game Front "Ending-Hatred" article or Angry Joe/Jeremy Jahns video comes out and then proceeds to get linked non stop for the next week and a half?

I can't help anyone who thinks that every guy with a website/blog/podcast is a 'journalist' who only promotes stuff and can never give an honest opinion on anything.

[Taboo]

Hudathan wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Journalists are used to promote something that they like........

They should have no bearing on your own opinion.......

That being said that quoting journalists is going to upset quite a few people because it doesn't mean much.

Is that why the forum gets buried every time a Game Front "Ending-Hatred" article or Angry Joe/Jeremy Jahns video comes out and then proceeds to get linked non stop for the next week and a half?

I can't help anyone who thinks that every guy with a website/blog/podcast is a 'journalist' who only promotes stuff and can never give an honest opinion on anything.

I don't like journalists or critics, especially when art is being discussed. People should form their own opinions and not rely on someone else to do it for them.I had no knowledge of this Angry Joe before this debacle and really don't care for his incredibly dry commentary. People look for things they agree with. You do it, I do it and Bioware does it.The reason the forums get buried everytime Forbes and this Angry Joe says something is because a more vocal majority on the forums want to hear that kind of thing.

I just want more information, which is why I think the endings are flawed and why I am so supportive of the Extended Cut.

[mxfox408]

AUTISTIC INTEGRITY at its best lol

[Taboo]

mxfox408 wrote...

AUTISTIC INTEGRITY at its best lol

Again. I stress the inability to think critically about something. Form your own opinions.

[Kreid]

Good thread, a lot of good link in the Op, thanks for taking your time to compile all this.

[leapingmonkeys]

I have to applaud Bioware PR for misdirecting so many of the customers with the whole "artistic integrity" chant. It has caused people to focus on the plot and plot holes instead of the central issue.

The central issue is: ME3 is a video game. What matters is whether the paying customers found the game to be enjoyable. Plot holes, art, critics, professional reviewers, etc are all irrelevant in the final analysis.

What has become apparent is that Bioware created a game which was not enjoyable for a large portion of the previously fanatic customer base. Instead of addressing that issue, they are trying to ignore it and marginalize their customer base. Everything else is as Shakespeare said in MacBeth: "it is a tale, Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing"