496 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

leapingmonkeys wrote...

I have to applaud Bioware PR for misdirecting so many of the customers with the whole "artistic integrity" chant. It has caused people to focus on the plot and plot holes instead of the central issue.

The central issue is: ME3 is a video game. What matters is whether the paying customers found the game to be enjoyable. Plot holes, art, critics, professional reviewers, etc are all irrelevant in the final analysis.

What has become apparent is that Bioware created a game which was not enjoyable for a large portion of the previously fanatic customer base. Instead of addressing that issue, they are trying to ignore it and marginalize their customer base. Everything else is as Shakespeare said in MacBeth: "it is a tale, Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing"

I'm still in awe over their handling of the PR. Terrible, terrible mistake. They should have talked sooner.

[saracen16]

Take the links in my sig, OP.

[Taboo]

saracen16 wrote...

Take the links in my sig, OP.

The links in your sig confirm something I already know.

Excusing logical failings in a narrative with something that wasn't intended is not an excuse. You do understand that using such things gives the writers far, far more credit then they deserve?

You are in just as much denial as the rest of us.

[DubVee12]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread OP. At first, I hated the endings more than I could possibly imagine, but I tried to be open minded, listening to what the proenders had to say about why the liked they ending. This thread helped me realize that the ending wasn't as bad as I made it out to be. I'd still don't love it, but I don't hate it nearly as much as I did. So thank you OP,

[fle6isnow]

@DubVee12: yeah, it's all a matter of interpretation, in the end.

Anyway, linky time.

The GamerSushi Show Mass Effect 3 podcast.
http://gamersushi.co...e-44-mass-cast/

The GamerSushi Show on the extended cut DLC.
(just the first few minutes)
http://gamersushi.co...stop-believing/

Bit Gamer: "I don't deserve a happy Mass Effect 3 ending." by Paul Goodhead
http://www.bit-tech....s-effect-3-end/ 

Game endings: are we being too harsh? by Ben Mansell
http://www.bit-tech..../04/30/ending/1

Why the Crucible may really be the only way to defeat the Reapers... by JShepppp
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11814974

I'll get to the other links once I've read/listened through them.

[Taboo]

The last thread is mathematical attempt to describe a necessary plot point. The Reapers were inspired by Lovecraftian lore and could only be defeated by something of a higher power. I'm still in awe that he wrote all that down. He is justifying something that is entirely pointless.

Some pro-enders put in just as much work as the anti-enders and still look goofy.

We've all been driven crazy by this......myself included.

[operageek]

Thanks for compiling this list - as someone who would really wants to be able to like the endings (at least one of them) I look forward to reading through these in the coming days and getting some new perspectives!

[Shaigunjoe]

saracen16 wrote...

Take the links in my sig, OP.

I have never understood people complaining about space magic.  It surprises me that Shep falls to a planet after having the suit out gas and then still be brought back to life and nobody really complained about that.  It was all very 3001.  Except without the 1k years of elapsed time.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I'm not really a pro-ender because I have a lot of big issues with it. At the same time, I think it gets flak where it shouldn't. Also, what most fans want out of the ending is usually completely cheesy, and I'd even rather keep the current endings over the generic done-to-death happy endings.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the ECDLC can take an interesting idea they had and make it a good story.

[fle6isnow]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I'm not really a pro-ender because I have a lot of big issues with it. At the same time, I think it gets flak where it shouldn't. Also, what most fans want out of the ending is usually completely cheesy, and I'd even rather keep the current endings over the generic done-to-death happy endings.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the ECDLC can take an interesting idea they had and make it a good story.

I think a lot of "us" who liked, were ok with, or didn't totally hate the ending (if we can even be called a group!) feel that way. There are issues with it, but I think they can definitely be fixed in the EC.

[DubVee12]

I agree OP. I just realized that some positive/hopeful interpretation here and there was healthier (at least for me) than spinning everything in a negatively. I hope the EC helps the other issues with the ending.

[ardensia]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Now here's something I haven't seen much debate on, but I think it should be talked about: what would you pro-ending lot think of having more options for the ending? Leave the ones we have intact, but provide more options that would make a heaping portion of Retakers happier, if not happy?

I think Hudathan brings up an important point on this issue. The ending has to be impactful, and allowing for a winner-takes-all happy ending both lessens the impact of the ending and goes against the established situation. The Reapers have always represented insurmountable odds, even when we had the entire Citadel fleet and the Alliance fleet against just one capital ship.... and even then we only defeated it because destroying Saren's remote-controlled body freaked out Sovereign's shields.

It's one of the great faults of ME2 that they allowed you to complete the game with your entire squad intact. Don't get me wrong; I didn't want to lose anyone, either. But it breaks the fourth wall and reminds you that you're playing a game rather than letting you stay in a roleplaying setting where your actions have long-lasting, unforseeable, and sometimes devestating consequences. Yes, several of your choices in ME2 reflect in ME3... but there really aren't any weighty choices in ME2 that play out in ME2 and can't be simply skipped by having a high enough paragon or renegade score.

I guess they thought fewer people would be willing to play full paragon or full renegade? I dunno. But it ended up cheapening a lot of your choices in the game.

I don't have an innate problem with them adding more ending options. I completely agree with what fle6snow said about getting a full-on cinematic if you wait too long rather than a lame Critical Mission Failure screen. And if they want to throw in a few other options... I'm ok with that provided the options require a degree of sacrifice. The theme of sacrifice is hardly subtle in ME3, and it seems unlikely that the devs would put so much work into making us players feel the weight of war just to give us a feel-good, everybody-execpt-NPCs-we-don't-care-about wins sort of ending.

Unfortunately, though, they kind of set an expectation for that with the way they handled ME2, so I can see why a lot of people would want it in ME3.

Modifié par ardensia, 03 mai 2012 - 05:14 .

[Shaigunjoe]

ardensia wrote...
It's one of the great faults of ME2 that they allowed you to complete the game with your entire squad intact. Don't get me wrong; I didn't want to lose anyone, either. But it breaks the fourth wall and reminds you that you're playing a game rather than letting you stay in a roleplaying setting where your actions have long-lasting, unforseeable, and sometimes devestating consequences. Yes, several of your choices in ME2 reflect in ME3... but there really aren't any weighty choices in ME2 that play out in ME2 and can't be simply skipped by having a high enough paragon or renegade score.

This. Well put.

[SilentK]

Don't know if you got this one already but Gabe from Penny Arcade on the ending. Apparently he chose synthesis

Gabe Mass Effect 3 Ending

[tmk]

Well, if you don't play DLC, see the whole game as nothing more than a choose-your-story book, and care about the whole thing even less than the people who wrote it, then the ending won't upset you too much. Too bad he's not the type of customer who tends to buy DLC though...

Modifié par tmk, 04 mai 2012 - 08:08 .

[fle6isnow]

ardensia wrote...

It's one of the great faults of ME2 that they allowed you to complete the game with your entire squad intact. Don't get me wrong; I didn't want to lose anyone, either. But it breaks the fourth wall and reminds you that you're playing a game rather than letting you stay in a roleplaying setting where your actions have long-lasting, unforseeable, and sometimes devestating consequences. Yes, several of your choices in ME2 reflect in ME3... but there really aren't any weighty choices in ME2 that play out in ME2 and can't be simply skipped by having a high enough paragon or renegade score.

I guess they thought fewer people would be willing to play full paragon or full renegade? I dunno. But it ended up cheapening a lot of your choices in the game.

I agree. Not that it wasn't nice to have the whole squad survive in ME2, but  I felt like there shouldn't have been the "paragon/renegade" checks for the loyalty conflicts (e.g. Tali/Legion, Miranda/Jack). Plus, there being a "perfect ending" to ME2 merely encourages a lot (if not most) of people to play the "correct" way, when really, there shouldn't even BE a correct way.

@tmk: you know what they say about "assume"...

Anyway, lots of links today! Thanks to SilentK for the last link. I also did more digital reorganizing and added subcategories for the first post because I refuse to do IRL organizing. *looks at messy desk*<_<

I Have a Question (for "Pro-Enders" of ME3)by BlazingZephyr
http://social.biowar...ndex/11857489/1

I hereby challenge any Pro-Ender to refute the points made by Strange Aeons. by ArchLord James
http://social.biowar...ndex/11829208/1

On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers, and why Synthesis is such an attractive choice by Ieldra2
http://social.biowar...ndex/11863883/1

Mass Effect 3: There is only ONE choice (revised edit) by pro5
(With video!)
http://social.biowar...ndex/11799672/1

Wait, why is control ending a bad choice again? by Sparse
http://social.biowar...index/11865470/

Totally tootin' my own horn here but oh well...just wanted it here because it's buried in that other thread.
http://social.biowar...886/33#11616475

Gabe on the Mass Effect 3 Ending
www.penny-arcade.com/2012/03/14/mass-effect-3-ending-spoiler-warning

Modifié par fle6isnow, 04 mai 2012 - 09:19 .

[ardensia]

fle6isnow wrote...

ardensia wrote...

It's one of the great faults of ME2 that they allowed you to complete the game with your entire squad intact. Don't get me wrong; I didn't want to lose anyone, either. But it breaks the fourth wall and reminds you that you're playing a game rather than letting you stay in a roleplaying setting where your actions have long-lasting, unforseeable, and sometimes devestating consequences. Yes, several of your choices in ME2 reflect in ME3... but there really aren't any weighty choices in ME2 that play out in ME2 and can't be simply skipped by having a high enough paragon or renegade score.

I guess they thought fewer people would be willing to play full paragon or full renegade? I dunno. But it ended up cheapening a lot of your choices in the game.

I agree. Not that it wasn't nice to have the whole squad survive in ME2, but  I felt like there shouldn't have been the "paragon/renegade" checks for the loyalty conflicts (e.g. Tali/Legion, Miranda/Jack). Plus, there being a "perfect ending" to ME2 merely encourages a lot (if not most) of people to play the "correct" way, when really, there shouldn't even BE a correct way.

Yeah, prettymuch. It always ruins the roleplaying experience for me if I have to play one way or the other in a game. Then I feel like what I'm playing is more of an adventure game with two storylines than an RPG. And I have a pretty strong renegade streak in me, so it feels very confining to play a straight paragon Shepard if I'm trying to play the game with my choices instead of taking on a character persona.

Also, it discourages the reading of your dialogue options. You stop thinking about what Shep is saying and instead just focus on choosing top left/bottom left every time.

A friend of mine who was determined to go through their first ME2 playthrough as a "good" person did that and ended up accidentally romancing Miranda. 

Totally tootin' my own horn here but oh well...just wanted it here because it's buried in that other thread.
http://social.biowar...886/33#11616475

I read this. Would reply in that thread, but man, this post is buried.... Just wanted to say I agree with what you said about the themes, especially the first two you addressed. If Shepard was truly meant to be the big damn hero in a winner-takes-all fashion, there would have been a chance for you to leave Virmire with your entire squad intact. Your fondness (or lack thereof) for the character you left behind to die is immaterial. The option would have been available.

Modifié par ardensia, 05 mai 2012 - 07:21 .

[Hudathan]

ardensia wrote...

It's one of the great faults of ME2 that they allowed you to complete the game with your entire squad intact. Don't get me wrong; I didn't want to lose anyone, either. But it breaks the fourth wall and reminds you that you're playing a game rather than letting you stay in a roleplaying setting where your actions have long-lasting, unforseeable, and sometimes devestating consequences. Yes, several of your choices in ME2 reflect in ME3... but there really aren't any weighty choices in ME2 that play out in ME2 and can't be simply skipped by having a high enough paragon or renegade score.

There wasn't anything close to Virmire in that game. It was still a great game and I had a ton of fun with it, but in retrospect it was simply too 'clean' as an experience if you're playing it even remotely properly. And seeing how it was a popular entry into the series and easy to pick up, a lot of people were introduced to the Mass Effect universe that way.

A lot of people seem to think that ME2 was The Empire Strikes Back of the series and that ME3 did not provide the proper closure we're used to seeing from an epic trilogy. But that's because ME1 and 2 together is The New Hope and that ME3 is actually Empire.

Whether or not it's good to end a trilogy like that is subjective and should be the topic of its own discussion, but it's safe to say that the majority of people out there want their entertainment predictable and familiar like an old, comfortable blanket.

Modifié par Hudathan, 06 mai 2012 - 12:19 .

[Biokiipper]

Listening "An end once and for all" track, thinking about the game and the playthroughs, I realized the end was not as bad as people say. We didnt get closure enough, but its ok... What makes me a little sad or nostalgic is the fact that the day I finished the game I couldnt play anymore... I was planning to start a female sheppard and finish my 3 others... I played around 250 hours ME 1 and 200 hours ME2 and one time ME3. I really enjoyed the game, and the feeling that I was near the end gave some kind of heart ache... I finished the game almost 2 monthes ago and I still feel a heart ache, a "missing feeling"... I dont know yet if I will play any ME again, but I couldnt uninstall them too, the games are ready to go... they are great, I feel the endings that we were presented dont allow lots of playthroughs...because we already know whats coming... this heart pain...not all bad...the whole was awesome and the end, in its way was good too. I guess the developers didnt know how attached we were to the game. Its hard to say goodbye this way... we were cut... we got a void feeling... We that love games AND their stories, emotions, characters cant say goodbye this way... Its was not only action for me, I liked the ME universe... and it was destroyed the way we knew during the gameplay... and theres nothing we can do inside game to change that... it was the last one of the series... We have only our complaints here outside... I think thats the big issue, well, at least for me...

[babachewie]

Good Work

[Codeka]

Some people enjoy the taste of dog poop, they may even write about it and try and justify it... but in the end it's still ****.

[TMA LIVE]

A suggestion for Extending Control:

http://social.biowar...ndex/11842598/1

And some brain storming on BOLT theory. Some of it's dated now, but what the hell.

http://social.biowar...ndex/10890419/1

I am a fan of the ending. I just feel like there are literally gaps in the thing that need to be filled. I didn't mind Synthesis being vague and open ended. But the other two endings? Not knowing just makes it seem like the series ended with some **** kicking your sand castle, and that's it.

But Star Kid I didn't have a problem with. The choices I don't have a problem with. Shepard dying I don't have a problem with. The plotholes I have a problem with. The lack of my choices mattering and reflected I have a problem with. Including not seeing the details on the last one.

So if they fix those, it's a win for me.

[Flyprdu]

Hudathan wrote...
A lot of people seem to think that ME2 was The Empire Strikes Back of the series and that ME3 did not provide the proper closure we're used to seeing from an epic trilogy. But that's because ME1 and 2 together is The New Hope and that ME3 is actually Empire.

*whispers*  Pssst...  your speculation is showing.**

That's a nice thought that there might be more to this story, but BioWare has been clear that this was the end of the Shepard/Reaper arc.   Empire this is not. 

it's safe to say that the majority of people out there want their entertainment predictable and familiar like an old, comfortable blanket.

You say that like it's a bad thing.  I don't want to spend 100 hours of my free time being jerked around because someone wants to be the next  M. Night Shyamalamadingdong.

[ardensia]

Flyprdu wrote...

*whispers*  Pssst...  your speculation is showing.**

Please refer to the bolded warning label on the first post of this thread.

That's a nice thought that there might be more to this story, but BioWare has been clear that this was the end of the Shepard/Reaper arc.   Empire this is not. 

it's safe to say that the majority of people out there want their entertainment predictable and familiar like an old, comfortable blanket.

You say that like it's a bad thing.  I don't want to spend 100 hours of my free time being jerked around because someone wants to be the next  M. Night Shyamalamadingdong.

To each their own. But games will never be seen as more than an entertainment venue if they don't take risks like this to try and make people think about concepts that reach beyond the game itself.

[fle6isnow]

TMA LIVE wrote...

A suggestion for Extending Control:

http://social.biowar...ndex/11842598/1

And some brain storming on BOLT theory. Some of it's dated now, but what the hell.

http://social.biowar...ndex/10890419/1

I am a fan of the ending. I just feel like there are literally gaps in the thing that need to be filled. I didn't mind Synthesis being vague and open ended. But the other two endings? Not knowing just makes it seem like the series ended with some **** kicking your sand castle, and that's it.

But Star Kid I didn't have a problem with. The choices I don't have a problem with. Shepard dying I don't have a problem with. The plotholes I have a problem with. The lack of my choices mattering and reflected I have a problem with. Including not seeing the details on the last one.

So if they fix those, it's a win for me.

Interesting reads, thanks for the links! I shall add them to the ending improvement section.