496 réponses à ce sujet

[fle6isnow]

Le bumpity, with the update for today:

Why I liked the ending. by babachewie
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11902292

Defending Synthesis by Kroguard
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11903107

Alternative Catalyst dialogue (EC suggestion) . Ideas for refinement welcome by Ieldra2
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11896347

[KingZayd]

fle6isnow wrote...
@KingZayd: you bring up interesting points about the implications of Sanctuary and TIM's research into indoctrination. Will address the your comments after dinner I guess, lol.

A little disappointed you didn't get round to commenting Would be interested to see what you think.

[fle6isnow]

Oh yeah! I did promise to get to that, sorry. Welp, might as well do it now!

KingZayd wrote...

I don't think Henry Lawson and co. ARE indoctrinated., and the fact that Sanctuary was attacked suggests there was a genuine threat to the reapers. Despite all the unforgivable horrors, Cerberus was the only group REALLY preparing for the reaper invasions. in the Cerberus base, you see video logs in which you get some interesting snippets. He implanted his Cerberus troops months ago,and Jana (the scientist) says "I'm still concerned about us losing control of our forces. Some of them are already hearing voices".

TIM: When our work at Sanctuary pays off, the only voice they'll be hearing is ours.

TIM was indoctrinated long ago on Shanxi (at first), but he's been fighting it all this time. The research at Sanctuary did pay off (seen in video 3, at Sanctuary itself, and finally on the Citadel where he control Shepard using indoctrination tech) and TIM's convinced that this indoctrination tech will allow him to control the reapers. Interesing question though: TIM said he was aware of the dangers, and that he was sure Jana would keep him in line. We never encountered Jana. Maybe TIM kept Jana with her all along? (interesting possibility if indoc theory is true) or did he go crazy and kill her? Also, he says " complete the procedure, no anaesthetic", I think this indicates that he knows if he's unconscious while being implanted, he's more likely to lose control. TIM is not as weak as you might assume. A second viewing of the Cerberus base video logs, is what really convinced me there's something going on in the background of the story.

I think that the game's actually had a pretty strong indoctrination theme, more so than people realise at first (And i'm not referring to stuff like dream trees in London) and that it's actually quite possible Bioware were thinking of indoctrination being important at the end. Along with stuff like Object Rho (which resembles the artifact that partially indoctrinated TIM when it knocked him out) activating and knocking Shepard out, it feels as if Bioware really were trying to drop some odd hints.


If the Starchild meeting is really an illusion, then it could just represent the Reaper taint, trying to create (using your own mind, it doesn't have full control yet which is obvious since you're not actively trying to help the reapers) a situation where you REJECT destroy in favour of another option. Once you do that, well then you pretty much consider the reapers as friends.

I am aware that in this reply I have mentioned possible types of indoctrination theory, 1 more explored than the other and i know indoc theory can be pretty unpopular, but I think my reasons for believing it are valid. I do believe at the very least that the Starchild lies to you, and the ending animations are in Shepard's head. If my ideas do happen to be close to the truth, then I would certainly be a pro-ender, but like I said before, until that's confirmed, I can't really be sure whether I like the endings, or just what I think the endings might be.

You do make a great point about the Reapers attacking Sanctuary. I mean, if control was just a pipe dream, then the Reapers would probably just let it be so there would be less organics to worry about when they're already destroying each other. It does suggest that Lawson and co. were onto something big. I know there was a log on Sanctuary that said something about how their control method works for the troops, but applying it to the Reapers itself was the bigger challenge--was that the one you were talking about? The question now would be how exactly did TIM think of doing that. Did he know he needed to be on the Citadel, as we can surmise from the conversation with him on the Cronos base? Did he think it was the Reaper implant? Did he need the Crucible? A combination of the above?

And yes, a million times, yes--TIM is not as weak as others may assume. Power-hungry, amoral, ruthless... sure, all applicable. But not weak in the sense that he is easily swayed or indoctrinated. I do think, though, that TIM's implanting himself with Reaper tech was the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to his indoctrination, but who is to say that he wasn't already fully indoctrinated before that? He has been fighting it for about 30yrs, after all, so I don't know. I, too, would love to know more about what happens in the background.

The game does drop a lot of hints WRT indoctrination, and I do feel like it does play a part in the endings, but just not to the degree that the Indoctrination Theory asserts. I think it is subtle manipulation rather than outright lying or it being "all in Shepard's head."

Lol, I hope that made sense--I just did a stream of consciousness post.

[KingZayd]

fle6isnow wrote...

Oh yeah! I did promise to get to that, sorry. Welp, might as well do it now!

KingZayd wrote...
http://social.biowar...753/13#11572385

You do make a great point about the Reapers attacking Sanctuary. I mean, if control was just a pipe dream, then the Reapers would probably just let it be so there would be less organics to worry about when they're already destroying each other. It does suggest that Lawson and co. were ono something big. I know there was a log on Sanctuary that said something about how their control method works for the troops, but applying it to the Reapers itself was the bigger challenge--was that the one you were talking about? The question now would be how exactly did TIM think of doing that. Did he know he needed to be on the Citadel, as we can surmise from the conversation with him on the Cronos base? Did he think it was the Reaper implant? Did he need the Crucible? A combination of the above?

Thanks, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about this. (Too much in fact). I was actually referring to these video logs: 
  at around 15 mins. Although I do remember the log on Sanctuary too. That one i noticed first time, the Cerberus base ones, I didn't appreciate fully the first time.

I think that first he wanted the Citadel because it would serve as an awesome base. When shut, it's really protective. As for the Crucible and the Catalyst (Citadel): It's known the Crucible uses Mass Relay technology, although it's uncertain how. The leading theory among the scientists is that they can use it to hurl projectiles accross the galaxy, basically removing range as a factor. I imagine since both energy and mass can travel through these massless corridors through space, that TIMs indoctrination signal can pass through too. Now the Citadel, being the hub of the mass relay network could plausibly mean this indoctrination signal could be sent through all the Mass relays, meaning he can get every single Reaper in the galaxy? It seems as if he WANTED Shepard to know what he'd done with the CItadel. Kai Leng only attacked AFTER Vendetta told him that the Citadel had been moved. TIM also seemed to be waiting for Shepard to get there hence his sudden interruption as soon as Shepard sat in his chair. Why does he want the Crucible in London? Because he's at an advantage there. He can control reaper forces. He can probably survive in such a place better than the Allied forces.  I wonder if it's possible he can fool the reapers into believing he serves them? Maybe that's what the implant is for? And/Or maybe it allows him to communicate with the reapers himself? I always did wonder how he informed the reapers of his actions. He didn't send an email did he?

fle6isnow wrote... 
And yes, a million times, yes--TIM is not as weak as others may assume. Power-hungry, amoral, ruthless... sure, all applicable. But not weak in the sense that he is easily swayed or indoctrinated. I do think, though, that TIM's implanting himself with Reaper tech was the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to his indoctrination, but who is to say that he wasn't already fully indoctrinated before that? He has been fighting it for about 30yrs, after all, so I don't know. I, too, would love to know more about what happens in the background.

Yes, it's funny really. He's one of the most interesting characters in the series, and in some ways appears to take the part of a tragic hero (albeit a super-renegade one). Yet, suddenly everyone thinks he's only a puppet. I think that implant could certainly be what tipped him over the edge (Poor Jana). But then what if he really did know what he was doing? If it was anyone in the series, it'd be him. Also, just a random thought. Does he appear to be taking more puffs on those cigarettes than before? From what i remember in ME2, it seemed to serve almost as a prop to make him look cool. Would be interesting if it turned out that something so minor was actually a coping mechanism for those voices in his head.

fle6isnow wrote... 
The game does drop a lot of hints WRT indoctrination, and I do feel like it does play a part in the endings, but just not to the degree that the Indoctrination Theory asserts. I think it is subtle manipulation rather than outright lying or it being "all in Shepard's head."

Personally I don't think the Earthchild was fake. For me he was a genuine person who's death affected Shepard. And the reaper taint in his mind used that image to haunt him and make him doubt himself. (Which Beneziah tells us, helps indoctrination). This self doubt is quite obvious near the end of the game. 

Something i find odd is that the story's details get really strange right around the point that Shepard is nearly killed by Harbinger In the vehicle with me were Garrus, Liara, Anderson and Coates. We're all meant to be charging towards the beam. After the blast: Garrus and Liara have disappeared, later to be seen on the Normandy. Coates is on the radio telling everyone that the team has been decimated. Anderson despite appearing unscathed when I meet him again, followed me up, despite the fact that I had a little reaper-induced nap halfway. Was he playing dead or something? Also it seems as if my squad hadn't really been decimated, but have just given up. The reapers have a crack squad of 3 husks and 1 marauder defending this conduit now. They didn't seem to be there before, so I'm not sure why they're there now. After you beat them, the Conduit takes you almost directly to the control panel you need to open the Citadel arms. That's strangely convenient.

In the Citadel, TIM uses his indoctrination device (what else could it be? This is what he's been researching, I don't think he upgraded it) to control Anderson and Shepard. But wait something's wrong... They're being physically controlled, but their minds are unaffected. This isn't how indoctrination works is it? They're meant to lose control of their mind and then eventually their body as a result.

And then Shepard meets the Starchild etc. When destruction and control are addressed, the trigger mechanisms aren't explained to Shepard. He sees them in his mind (and yes he sees them, because otherwise he wouldn't know that he had to shoot the tube/grab those shocky rods to activate those options) being activated by Anderson and TIM respectively. Now if the Starchild can beam these images to Shepard's mind, what other images can he put there? (those last questions only really relevant if you believe the scences before this encounter are real. But if they are, then there could still be something really tricky going on). And also we're led to believe that a cycle believed that the best addition to an anti-reaper weapon would be something that doesn't affect them (synthesis)? Or was that just an alternative solution the Starchild provided with based on the hardware/ desire to make you kill yourself (that was my initial interpretation, but then people were saying all the choices were from the crucible)

I personally believe that Shepard's mental barriers were protecting him from losing control (much like TIM). However, over time, the reaper influence has been getting stronger (and/or his mind has been becoming more frail) as indicated in the transformation of his dreams, He's still fine though, as this is only noticeable when he's unconscious (again, TIM didn't want anaesthetic when being implanted, perhaps for this reason. The mind is more vulnerable when you're asleep, especially as the dreams are malleable (time for 1 more video 
http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s)

I don't think Harbinger used an indoctrination laser or whatever it is some people have come up with, to explain this transition. I think Harbinger isn't the type to mess about. He meant business and shot to kill. Shepard gets knocked out by the splash damage from a near miss. Barely alive, Shepard is weakened, and so are his mental barriers. The reaper taint makes a play for his mind at this point. All those familiar looking environments are generated by his mind. Did the room where you met Anderson and TIM look strangely like TIM's office to you? With the Citadel arm background of course, and a new colour scheme. I think the whole point is to make Shepard REJECT destruction in favour of other options. It'd be a major turning point in this struggle for Shepard's mind. Then, when Shepard does wake up in London (that is what the area looks like to me), we don't know how long he's been out, (passing or failing the indoctrination challenge doesn't wake you up. It merely affects what your mental state is when you do wake up) except it doesn't look like there's a battle going on there any more. Maybe somebody made it through. Maybe they're regrouping to take another shot at it.

That's what i think anyway I wonder what part you believe indoctrination had in the endings?

fle6isnow wrote...  
Lol, I hope that made sense--I just did a stream of consciousness post. 

It did. I hope mine does too. It feels like i might have typed a lot here, including the core of my version of indoctrination theory

[SilentK]

Don't know if you have read this one already. Penny Arcade Report. Editorial by Ben Kuchera.

Why the ending of Mass Effect 3 was satisfying, and worthy of the series (Massive spoilers)

[ardensia]

I'm not sure if this one quite fits (maybe under ending improvement threads?), but it's an interesting read one way or the other, and makes a pretty good attempt to explain how the Reaper cycles began in the first place.

Modifié par ardensia, 10 mai 2012 - 07:15 .

[Hudathan]

Not about ME3 in particular, but the GameCritics crew talk extensively on the myths of game criticism on their podcast. A timely discussion since a big part of the ME3 debate centers around gaming media and an interesting listen in general.

http://gamecritics.c...-game-criticism

http://gamecritics.c...riticism-part-2

SilentK wrote...


Don't know if you have read this one already. Penny Arcade Report. Editorial by Ben Kuchera.

Why the ending of Mass Effect 3 was satisfying, and worthy of the series (Massive spoilers)

I like this one.

Modifié par Hudathan, 10 mai 2012 - 01:38 .

[TMA LIVE]

Wonder if anyone can answer this:

Here's something I've always wondered about. In all three endings where you see the shockwaves hitting the galaxy, there's a group of white dots flying in the scene at the bottom right of the galaxy, moving to the left. I always wondered what they were.

http://www.youtube.c...zhHtqgY#t=1300s

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 12 mai 2012 - 06:57 .

[fle6isnow]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Wonder if anyone can answer this:

Here's something I've always wondered about. In all three endings where you see the shockwaves hitting the galaxy, there's a group of white dots flying in the scene at the bottom right of the galaxy, moving to the left. I always wondered what they were.

http://www.youtube.c...zhHtqgY#t=1300s

Huh, I thought they were just part of the galaxy's arms spinning. Do you think it's something else?

Anyway, thanks for the links while I was out, you guys! Shall add them to the first post soon.

[Taboo]

I believe what you're seeing is compression. When you put a video file on a disc you have to compress it to fit. I noticed a create deal of compression that was visible when I watched the ending cut scene.

Or it's an aesthetic choice.

I hope this helps.

[TMA LIVE]

No it's in all the videos I've seen on youtube, and in game. It's not a glitch or stutter. They're not apart of the galaxy, because they're moving way too fast, and are bigger then the other stars.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 12 mai 2012 - 07:41 .

[Taboo]

Well that doesn't sound like compression to me.........

[fle6isnow]

@TMA: Wait, just to be clear, are you talking about the things circled in red in this pic?



To me they look like random nebula clouds or something like that.


Anyway, updated the first post with the links Silent K, Hudathan, and Ardensia provided above, plus these ones:

Post by dreamgazer about how the endings tie in with previously presented themes
http://social.biowar...906/19#12011720

Did post-leak changes ruin the ending's exposition and the Control and Synthesis options? by Ieldra2
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11989180

Arcian's Fixed Ending by Arcian
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9928376

I might be out for a while again after this weekend--it's the busy part of the year for my job (kids cramming, lol), AND I've been moving, AND I have my to meet up with friend from the UK to take him around town... gah, everything came all at once! End of school year stress raaaaaarrrrghhh!

But keep posting links and I'll put them up when I can.

Modifié par fle6isnow, 12 mai 2012 - 08:20 .

[TMA LIVE]

I don't think they're random nebula clouds because you don't see them anywhere else on the Galaxy. Just a group of them there moving from the right to the left.

[LinksOcarina]

Thank you for posting my Socratic debate in this thread, I do appreciate it and i'm glad it is part of the discussion.

That said, I do want to point out that my stance on the ending is rather neutral. If you can just make a note of that on the first page, I would appreciate that as well, because that is what the Socratic debate is supposed to represent. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 12 mai 2012 - 11:07 .

[ardensia]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Thank you for posting my Socratic debate in this thread, I do appreciate it and i'm glad it is part of the discussion.

That said, I do want to point out that my stance on the ending is rather neutral. If you can just make a note of that on the first page, I would appreciate that as well, because that is what the Socratic debate is supposed to represent. 

Yeah, there's a note in the original post thanking those who have been linked, even if they aren't truly pro-ending. A fairly good handful of the links are actually from neutral-enders, and even some anti-enders who have brought up discussions on why the end is maybe not total crap, or on what they think was actually going on.

Though... perhaps this note could be put somewhere where it's less likely to be overlooked?

[fle6isnow]

@LinksOcarina: yup, shall add a note to it when I update the thread next.

[LinksOcarina]

ardensia wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Thank you for posting my Socratic debate in this thread, I do appreciate it and i'm glad it is part of the discussion.

That said, I do want to point out that my stance on the ending is rather neutral. If you can just make a note of that on the first page, I would appreciate that as well, because that is what the Socratic debate is supposed to represent. 

Yeah, there's a note in the original post thanking those who have been linked, even if they aren't truly pro-ending. A fairly good handful of the links are actually from neutral-enders, and even some anti-enders who have brought up discussions on why the end is maybe not total crap, or on what they think was actually going on.

Though... perhaps this note could be put somewhere where it's less likely to be overlooked?

Honestly I didn't even notice it. I shall look for it next time. Thank you again guys.

[fle6isnow]

 Coming up for air from my hell week (so. many. cramming. kids. x_x) to throw these links in:

The best way the Extended Cut can end up by Ieldra2
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12043832

Wait, why is control ending a bad choice again? by RMP _
http://social.biowar.../index/11865470

Why my Shepard will choose Synthesis by Gexora
http://social.biowar...ndex/12099895/1


I'll update the front page once I get back to my proper computer. I'm on "TEH EEEVUL MAC" and I don't have my file with the pretty colors. Q____Q

Modifié par fle6isnow, 17 mai 2012 - 05:32 .

[ardensia]

fle6isnow wrote...

I'll update the front page once I get back to my proper computer. I'm on "TEH EEEVUL MAC" and I don't have my file with the pretty colors. Q____Q

Hahahaha! And as we all know, the colors are the most important bit. 

[sydranark]

LOL this thread exists?? Why??

[fle6isnow]

ardensia wrote...
Hahahaha! And as we all know, the colors are the most important bit. 

Of course! And now that I'm back at my beeeyoootiful PC, I have updated the first post with the links, pretty colors and all.

sydranark wrote...

LOL this thread exists?? Why??

For reasons I've already discussed in the OP...

[Jawsomebob]

I still cant believe people exist that are happy with the ending. I read these articles and my jaw literally hangs open with some of the points I see you guys make as positives. Most of the stuff you guys spin as good things also to me are bad things.

[ArthurVon]

Well, everyone likes the ending.

[Jawsomebob]

ArthurVon wrote...

Well, everyone likes the ending.

I want to see you justify this buddy.