496 réponses à ce sujet

[MegaSovereign]

Seival wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Seival wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Nothing is perfect.

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows

...At least ME Trilogy endings is perfect for me. Even without EC.

Bioware certainly doesn't feel like it's perfect. Hence why they're doing an EC.

My opinion is that they made EC mostly to make the ending easier to understand. For me the ending is already perfect, but I'll be pleased to see it in more details

I respect your opinion.

I myself really like the concepts of the ending. I just think it was executed badly. If they wanted to do such an ambiguous ending, then they shouldn't have promised the fanbase that the original ending was going to be the definitive conclusion to shepard's story.

[Hudathan]

I like everything about the ending except for how short it is. I don't mind not having the wind-down period ala Return of the King, in fact I really hate those. I prefer to end my stories on a emotional high note. ME3 ended on an emotional high note but the emotions were over too quick for me. The extended cut might be a happy middle ground for me and I know I won't be the only one.

[Gorkan86]

Doubling it. You just read my mind. I look forward to the EC.

[TK EL_]

Erixxxx wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Seival wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Nothing is perfect.

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows

...At least ME Trilogy endings is perfect for me. Even without EC.

Bioware certainly doesn't feel like it's perfect. Hence why they're doing an EC.

What I've seen hinted at so far fits pretty well with what I walked away with three months ago. They're not really changing anything, they're just making it easier to understand.

Nice, cos understanding it all was the problem

[Erixxxx]

 Funny thing that I had forgotten. Someone on MMO-Champion is playing through the games again, and this is something he found in ME1 on the Citadel:
http://i.imgur.com/1Hr4I.jpg

Guess all the talk about the whole organic/synthetic problem not being brought up in ME1 is BS.

[The Night Mammoth]

Erixxxx wrote...

 Funny thing that I had forgotten. Someone on MMO-Champion is playing through the games again, and this is something he found in ME1 on the Citadel:
http://i.imgur.com/1Hr4I.jpg

Guess all the talk about the whole organic/synthetic problem not being brought up in ME1 is BS.

Oh wow, because the Citadel's bank hacking AI has never been talked about before. 

Unless you have a serious case of delirium it doesn't talk about the same thing. 

[Ieldra]

Erixxxx wrote...
Funny thing that I had forgotten. Someone on MMO-Champion is playing through the games again, and this is something he found in ME1 on the Citadel:
http://i.imgur.com/1Hr4I.jpg

Guess all the talk about the whole organic/synthetic problem not being brought up in ME1 is BS.

No, of course it is brought up. Nobody really denied that. The problem is that it's not been a major theme. Had it successfully been presented as a major theme, then at the end of ME3, we'd all have gone "So *this* is what it was all about." instead of "WTF this makes no sense." 

I can wrap my head around it, but it takes more mental work than it should, uncovering all the cryptic or hidden bits that contributed to the theme.

[Erixxxx]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Oh wow, because the Citadel's bank hacking AI has never been talked about before. 

Unless you have a serious case of delirium it doesn't talk about the same thing. 

It talks about self-preservation from organics. Which is also what the entire Geth theme is centered on in ME2 and 3; continued synthetic survival in the face of organics trying to kill them. And in turn, the synthetics almost wipes out the organics. The AI from ME1 is the exact same thing.

[The Night Mammoth]

Erixxxx wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Oh wow, because the Citadel's bank hacking AI has never been talked about before. 

Unless you have a serious case of delirium it doesn't talk about the same thing. 

It talks about self-preservation from organics. Which is also what the entire Geth theme is centered on in ME2 and 3; continued synthetic survival in the face of organics trying to kill them.

It talks about self-preservation from organics.

It does not talk about wanting to eradicate every spec of organic matter in the galaxy. 

And in turn, the synthetics almost wipes out the organics.

All of them? 

No. 

The AI from ME1 is the exact same thing.

Except it's not. 

You aren't seriously saying this is appropriate foreshadowing, are you? 

[Erixxxx]

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, of course it is brought up. Nobody really denied that. The problem is that it's not been a major theme. Had it successfully been presented as a major theme, then at the end of ME3, we'd all have gone "So *this* is what it was all about." instead of "WTF this makes no sense."

It has been a major theme from the beginning of ME1. Synthetics trying to wipe out organics, or the other way around. The whole series is based on the idea of synthetics and organics not being able to co-exist peacefully.

I can wrap my head around it, but it takes more mental work than it should, uncovering all the cryptic or hidden bits that contributed to the theme.

From what I've seen from Bioware's stuff behind the scenes, the mental exercise is fully intended. And a welcome one at that. Too few games take these kinds of risks these days. And from what I've seen the past three months, we're unlikley to see any other game attempt this again for an extremely long time. Which is sad. People need to sit down more and think instead of just wanting instant gratification. Instant gratification can definitely be good, but there needs to be an equal amount of mind-challenging puzzles.

[The Night Mammoth]

Erixxxx wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, of course it is brought up. Nobody really denied that. The problem is that it's not been a major theme. Had it successfully been presented as a major theme, then at the end of ME3, we'd all have gone "So *this* is what it was all about." instead of "WTF this makes no sense."

It has been a major theme from the beginning of ME1. Synthetics trying to wipe out organics, or the other way around. The whole series is based on the idea of synthetics and organics not being able to co-exist peacefully.

Eh.......... what? 

No it's not. 

At best it's a secondary theme with it's own secondary plot arc. At no point is the Catalyst's problem brought up in the game. 

From what I've seen from Bioware's stuff behind the scenes, the mental exercise is fully intended. And a welcome one at that. Too few games take these kinds of risks these days. And from what I've seen the past three months, we're unlikley to see any other game attempt this again for an extremely long time. Which is sad. People need to sit down more and think instead of just wanting instant gratification. Instant gratification can definitely be good, but there needs to be an equal amount of mind-challenging puzzles.

You think this is both good and intended? 

Lol. 

This is a travesty against writing everywhere. 

Deliberately causing things to not make sense is not good. 

[Erixxxx]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eh.......... what? 

No it's not. 

At best it's a secondary theme with it's own secondary plot arc. At no point is the Catalyst's problem brought up in the game.

The game establishes that all encounters with AIs that far have ended in violence. The Council has outlawed AI research for that exact reason. At this point in the ME universe storyline, all AIs are bad and wants to kill organics. The whole groundwork for the theme is laid here.

It may not be the main theme of that individual game, but it is one of the main themes of the trilogy as a whole.

You think this is both good and intended? 

Good? That's up to the individual. I personally like games/movies/stories that force me to think and put the pieces together for myself.

Intended? Yes. Bioware has a reason for everything, even if we can't clearly see it yet. Plus, Speculation For Everyone.

[The Night Mammoth]

Erixxxx wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eh.......... what? 

No it's not. 

At best it's a secondary theme with it's own secondary plot arc. At no point is the Catalyst's problem brought up in the game.

The game establishes that all encounters with AIs that far have ended in violence.
The Council has outlawed AI research for that exact reason. At this point in the ME universe storyline, all AIs are bad and wants to kill organics. The whole groundwork for the theme is laid here.

It may not be the main theme of that individual game, but it is one of the main themes of the trilogy as a whole.

Oh sure.

You'd have to ignore the other two games completely to make it at all relevant. 

Which is a flawed. 

You think this is both good and intended? 

Good? That's up to the individual. I personally like games/movies/stories that force me to think and put the pieces together for myself.

No game/movie/story forces you to piece things together. I challenge you to find a piece of prevalent fiction that deliberately leaves its most important plot components unresolved so the reader has to finish the story themselves.

There's doing what 2001 did, and allow speculation but close the story, and there's doing what ME3 did, and just leave important questions and do things that compromise the narrative.

Intended? Yes. Bioware has a reason for everything, even if we can't clearly see it yet. Plus, Speculation For Everyone.

I very much doubt this was intended. Running out of time and resources is far more likely, given their track record for quality.

Even so, I question their ability as writers and developers if doing what they did was intended.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 24 juin 2012 - 01:09 .

[TK EL_]

Erixxxx wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eh.......... what? 

No it's not. 

At best it's a secondary theme with it's own secondary plot arc. At no point is the Catalyst's problem brought up in the game.

The game establishes that all encounters with AIs that far have ended in violence. The Council has outlawed AI research for that exact reason. At this point in the ME universe storyline, all AIs are bad and wants to kill organics. The whole groundwork for the theme is laid here.

It may not be the main theme of that individual game, but it is one of the main themes of the trilogy as a whole.

You think this is both good and intended? 

Good? That's up to the individual. I personally like games/movies/stories that force me to think and put the pieces together for myself.

Intended? Yes. Bioware has a reason for everything, even if we can't clearly see it yet. Plus, Speculation For Everyone.

you have to be joking, right? A very missable minor quest in ME1 is your proof that its been a major theme? 
In fact I know you're joking because of your "Bioware has a reason for everything" line. It almost sounds like worship. You do know they actually admitted to not enough time/resources right?

Modifié par TK EL , 24 juin 2012 - 03:34 .

[Humakt83]

I thought I'd drop here.

I'm a pro-ender from the start thought that is because I realized that the ending had more than meets the eye and it fascinated me.

Here are my thoughts on the ending and about ME 3 in general: http://social.biowar.../index/12580163

Modifié par Humakt83, 25 juin 2012 - 05:36 .

[Hudathan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, of course it is brought up. Nobody really denied that. The problem is that it's not been a major theme. Had it successfully been presented as a major theme, then at the end of ME3, we'd all have gone "So *this* is what it was all about." instead of "WTF this makes no sense." 

I can wrap my head around it, but it takes more mental work than it should, uncovering all the cryptic or hidden bits that contributed to the theme.

How is it not a major theme if it's present in all three games in the forms of major characters/quests/storylines? I went "so this is what it was all about" the moment the Catalyst explained it to me, I don't see how it could have possibly went. And even if it wasn't the single most prominent theme of the series, so what? It doesn't have to be. The whole point is to have a reveal that forces the player to re-examine everything they experienced acrossed all three games which is exactly what it does.

TK EL wrote...

you have to be joking, right? A very missable minor quest in ME1 is your proof that its been a major theme? In fact I know you're joking because of your "Bioware has a reason for everything" line. It almost sounds like worship. You do know they actually admitted to not enough time/resources right?

Except it's no where near the only example. There is the rogue defense AI quest on the moon. The Quarian/Geth conflict was introduced in detail during the first game and stayed a primary theme for the rest of the series. AI research is explained as illegal and reasons were given in game into the dangers of synthetics.

In ME2 you have Legion, EDI, Project Overlord, the Geth consensus, the history of the Quarian/Geth conflict which are all further developed in ME3. Never has the issue of synthetics vs organics been a minor or unique theme in the series. It's always been there and has always one of the main thought provoking, science fiction aspects of the story. Deny it all you want but you're simply railing against fact. Either that or all the people who claim to know so much about the series can't even connect some of the easiest dots from all three games.

Modifié par Hudathan, 25 juin 2012 - 10:00 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Hudathan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, of course it is brought up. Nobody really denied that. The problem is that it's not been a major theme. Had it successfully been presented as a major theme, then at the end of ME3, we'd all have gone "So *this* is what it was all about." instead of "WTF this makes no sense." 

I can wrap my head around it, but it takes more mental work than it should, uncovering all the cryptic or hidden bits that contributed to the theme.

How is it not a major theme if it's present in all three games in the forms of major characters/quests/storylines? I went "so this is what it was all about" the moment the Catalyst explained it to me, I don't see how it could have possibly went. And even if it wasn't the single most prominent theme of the series, so what? It doesn't have to be. The whole point is to have a reveal that forces the player to re-examine everything they experienced acrossed all three games which is exactly what it does.

TK EL wrote...

you have to be joking, right? A very missable minor quest in ME1 is your proof that its been a major theme? In fact I know you're joking because of your "Bioware has a reason for everything" line. It almost sounds like worship. You do know they actually admitted to not enough time/resources right?

Except it's no where near the only example. There is the rogue defense AI quest on the moon. The Quarian/Geth conflict was introduced in detail during the first game and stayed a primary theme for the rest of the series. AI research is explained as illegal and reasons were given in game into the dangers of synthetics.

In ME2 you have Legion, EDI, Project Overlord, the Geth consensus, the history of the Quarian/Geth conflict which are all further developed in ME3. Never has the issue of synthetics vs organics been a minor or unique theme in the series. It's always been there and has always one of the main thought provoking, science fiction aspects of the story. Deny it all you want but you're simply railing against fact. Either that or all the people who claim to know so much about the series can't even connect some of the easiest dots from all three games.

Of course it was a major theme.  And more importantly it was the central conflict driving all the action, the conflict that you would seek to resolve at the end of the game, so I really do not understand how anyone could feel this came out of left field.

[Shaigunjoe]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
No game/movie/story forces you to piece things together. I challenge you to find a piece of prevalent fiction that deliberately leaves its most important plot components unresolved so the reader has to finish the story themselves.

Ummm... the lady, or the tiger?
http://en.wikipedia....,_or_the_Tiger?

Thats a pretty standard example, as it is usually the one used in high school literature to show that this is an acceptable practice.

Take Shelter comes to mind, also several Philip K Dick novels. And though Gene Wolfe does conclude his novels, he usually does it from a certain perspective and leaves room to doubt that what you were told may not be what happened.

[Taboo]

It's going to get very ugly come tomorrow ladies and gentlemen. Regardless of how you feel about
"X" I would suggest doing something to prepare, gurge your loins, hug a puppy, your wife, husband, partner etc.

[Shaigunjoe]

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's going to get very ugly come tomorrow ladies and gentlemen. Regardless of how you feel about
"X" I would suggest doing something to prepare, gurge your loins, hug a puppy, your wife, husband, partner etc.

Unfortunatly the preparing I'll be doing is getting my galatic readiness up....blargh

[Taboo]

I'm all set for that. Four characters left to promote. Almost 3000 N7 Squad assets.

I WILL be ready.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 25 juin 2012 - 02:28 .

[sp0ck 06]

The Night Mammoth wrote...


No game/movie/story forces you to piece things together. I challenge you to find a piece of prevalent fiction that deliberately leaves its most important plot components unresolved so the reader has to finish the story themselves.

There's doing what 2001 did, and allow speculation but close the story, and there's doing what ME3 did, and just leave important questions and do things that compromise the narrative.

The Sopranoes?  District 9?  The original Italian job?  Avatar?  Battlestar galactica?  You mention 2001:  one of the greatest sci fi stories of all time, and clearly a big inspiration for ME3's ending.

I don't think ME3 left its mot important story elements unresolved.  The Reaper threat is ended one way or the other.  The future is uncertain (too uncertain from the players point of view, admitedly), but the "quest" established in the first game has been completed.  Along the way, major story arcs are concluded that began in ME1, notably the krogan arc and the quarian/geth conflict.  The player's choices in these will certainly have a major influence on the rebuilding of the galaxy.

There were a lot of problems with ME3's ending, but it was an ending.

[Heeden]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

No game/movie/story forces you to piece things together. I challenge you to find a piece of prevalent fiction that deliberately leaves its most important plot components unresolved so the reader has to finish the story themselves.

Foundation's Edge has a three-way decision with none of the options being clearly of pragmantic or moral superiority, the results are never explained and the next book - Foundation and Earth - explores the theme more fully with still no conclusion. This book ends with a choice whether an ancient robot should fuse its consciousness with an orphan, again no indication is given of which choice was correct (if any) or what the results actually are.

After that Asimov wrote a couple of prequels before he died, it seems he felt it was important to introduce those themes to the work but couldn't satisfacorily explain what they actually did (a literary event horizon perhaps?)

The Dark Tower ended on an emotional bummer with no resolution or even a hint of what had been achieved, if anything.

Two of my all-time favourite series, in fact "It's about the journey, not the destination" is a phrase me and some friends have been using since book 7 of the Dark Tower released.

[Heeden]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

I don't think ME3 left its mot important story elements unresolved.  The Reaper threat is ended one way or the other.  The future is uncertain (too uncertain from the players point of view, admitedly), but the "quest" established in the first game has been completed.  Along the way, major story arcs are concluded that began in ME1, notably the krogan arc and the quarian/geth conflict.  The player's choices in these will certainly have a major influence on the rebuilding of the galaxy.

There were a lot of problems with ME3's ending, but it was an ending.

As far as I was concerned the Genophage and Geth-Quarian conflict were the main story to Mass Effect, the Reaper invasion was more of a back-drop.

[saracen16]

Heeden wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

No game/movie/story forces you to piece things together. I challenge you to find a piece of prevalent fiction that deliberately leaves its most important plot components unresolved so the reader has to finish the story themselves.

Foundation's Edge has a three-way decision with none of the options being clearly of pragmantic or moral superiority, the results are never explained and the next book - Foundation and Earth - explores the theme more fully with still no conclusion. This book ends with a choice whether an ancient robot should fuse its consciousness with an orphan, again no indication is given of which choice was correct (if any) or what the results actually are.

After that Asimov wrote a couple of prequels before he died, it seems he felt it was important to introduce those themes to the work but couldn't satisfacorily explain what they actually did (a literary event horizon perhaps?)

The Dark Tower ended on an emotional bummer with no resolution or even a hint of what had been achieved, if anything.

Two of my all-time favourite series, in fact "It's about the journey, not the destination" is a phrase me and some friends have been using since book 7 of the Dark Tower released.

The fact that a book or story actually forces you to piece things together makes it more involving and engrossing. It turns you into an active participant, not just a reactive one.