496 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Bump to get something remotely positive on the first page.

I get the sense that most people who didn't like the ending have given up hope of even trying to like or appreciate it and are now just waiting to pounce on bioware whatever they do.

Not quite. I'll probably never quite forget how badly this was done, and it definitely has affected my relationship to BW, but I figure I can live with it despite all the flaws.

To that end, I wrote about meaningful sacrifice and clarification (see signature, or as I notice, it's been kindly linked to in the OP).

[Hudathan]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Bump to get something remotely positive on the first page.

I get the sense that most people who didn't like the ending have given up hope of even trying to like or appreciate it and are now just waiting to pounce on bioware whatever they do.

Playing through the Cerberus Base again last night, I was struck by how much foreshadowing there is for the ending.

TIM: "It's not that simple" (talking about using the Crucible)
Shep: "It IS that simple!"

...did you really expect it to be that simple? Through three games, nothing has been.

Kai Leng "Evolve or die, that's the only plan"
TIM "I believe destroying the Reapers would be the worst possible decision"

These endings did not just pop out of nowhere. The entire Cerberus arc from the collector base to TIM's HQ is basically an argument for Control.

Anyway, I just think if people got away from the rampant raging on the forums (a lot of it admittedly justified) and just tried to come to terms with the ending, it would bring some needed satisfaction into the community.

Out of all the arguments over the ending, I think the one I've finally given up on is "the theme of the ending came out of no where!"

If someone wants to believe that the series is about something obscure like dark energy and refuses to acknowledge all the stuff Saren/Sovereign/Mordin/TIM/Legion/EDI/Javik/Padok Wiks and many others have repeatedly said, then they're in denial the likes I've never seen when it comes to a story and there is nothing I can say to them to get them to see my perspective.

Modifié par Hudathan, 13 avril 2012 - 10:31 .

[fle6isnow]

Hudathan wrote...

Out of all the arguments over the ending, I think the one I've finally given up on is "the theme of the ending came out of no where!"

If someone wants to believe that the series is about something obscure like dark energy and refuses to acknowledge all the stuff Saren/Sovereign/Mordin/TIM/Legion/EDI/Javik/Padok Wiks and many others have repeatedly said, then they're in denial the likes I've never seen when it comes to a game and there is nothing I can say to them to get them to see my perspective.

Yeah, this is the point I disagree with most with the anti-end folks. I do agree with some (a lot) of the "plot holes"/sloppy cinematics/space magic things, but to me synthetics vs. organics has been one of THE main themes of the series, and Bioware has said so as well. I finally got curious, and downloaded the Final Hours App yesterday, and there it says that they finally found the basis of the Mass effect plot after seeing a Japanese robot that could simulate human voices using artificial vocal cords. They then got to thinking that maybe there will come a point that man and machine will become indistinguishable, and, I quote directly from the app here, that "the tension between organic and synthetic life could be an appropriate theme to frame the SFX trilogy."

People who disagree with the synthetics vs. organics theme at the ending feel that this part of the storyline was resolved earlier with the geth and quarians. However, people are forgetting that a lot of others did not get a resolution with that war, and had to choose between organics or synthetics, further validating Starbrat. Even if you were able to save both sides, though, I don't see it as resolved so much as put on the back burner because of the Reaper war. Krogans still hate the salarians and turians (especially if you have Wreave, instead of Wrex), salarians are still heavily distrustful of the krogan, and I'm pretty sure a lot of quarians still feel some enmity towards the geth, because hell, who can get over 300yrs of enmity THAT quickly? USA still can't get over its racial issues 150 years after slavery was officially ended, and this is within one species! I'm pretty sure it would be even more complicated if your enemy was not just an entire different race or species, but a non-organic species at that. Even Chakwas, who knows AI through Legion and EDI, still thinks that synthetic life is not real life. If she can think that, wouldn't the quarians, who mostly have had little contact with the geth outside of war, also think so? I'm pretty sure a lot of quarians are still stuck in the mindset that AI are merely tools that went bad, and not real life.

Actually, let's watch that scene where Chakwas and Adams argue again. If you agree with Chakwas, you are saying the geth are not real life, so it is prefectly justifiable to destroy them and EDI in the red ending. If you agree with Adams, Chakwas says that both Adams and Shepard are practically machines themselves--a synthesis of man and machine--so of course they would say AI is true life. Shepard, of course, has his/her synthetic components from Cerberus, but even Adams, who didn't get a synthetic rebirth, has so much synthetic parts--omnitools are implanted, he probably has implants for the haptic interfaces and other tech to interface with machines, maybe even artificial organs, etc.--that Chakwas is saying he's practically a machine as well. It is precisely because Adams is a blend of synthetic and organic that he can so easily see that AI is real life. He says so as well, earlier in the conversation, "we need to break free of nature and open our minds to new forms of life." This is the crux of the synthesis ending--by becoming part machine/part organic, we can understand the other side. Even if the hybrids create pure synthetics themselves, there is still a way to interface and to communicate, and there is no artificial divide between organics and synthetics.

Anyway, that's why I disagree that there was a huge thematic shift. A huge scope shift, perhaps, in that instead of deciding for those close to him/her, Shepard is deciding what to do for the ENITRE galaxy, including future generations. A lot of people didn't like that, but I found it very powerful to be suddenly handed the reins to the universe. Yes, it's rather space magicky, but I can spheal with it.

[Hudathan]

G33kWatch podcast on the ending debate.

http://www.g33kwatch...kwatch-podcast/

The Veteran Gamers podcast on the ending debate. (1h 40m in)

http://o35s.podbean....-mass-effect-3/ 

Game Junk Podcast, very opinionated but goes to show not everyone feels the same way about the ending. (30m in)

http://www.gamejunkp...1-kingdoms.html

Blogger Sekani on why he was satisfied with the ending.

http://sekani2.com/4...-saved-isnt-it/ 

Modifié par Hudathan, 13 avril 2012 - 10:42 .

[ardensia]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Bump to get something remotely positive on the first page.

I get the sense that most people who didn't like the ending have given up hope of even trying to like or appreciate it and are now just waiting to pounce on bioware whatever they do.

Playing through the Cerberus Base again last night, I was struck by how much foreshadowing there is for the ending.

TIM: "It's not that simple" (talking about using the Crucible)
Shep: "It IS that simple!"

...did you really expect it to be that simple? Through three games, nothing has been.

Kai Leng "Evolve or die, that's the only plan"
TIM "I believe destroying the Reapers would be the worst possible decision"

These endings did not just pop out of nowhere. The entire Cerberus arc from the collector base to TIM's HQ is basically an argument for Control.

Anyway, I just think if people got away from the rampant raging on the forums (a lot of it admittedly justified) and just tried to come to terms with the ending, it would bring some needed satisfaction into the community.

Oh, man. The amount of foreshadowing in the last game was crazy. All those little theories I had gathered over the first two games became very quickly realized... and were then re-established... and re-established again. That this isn't gong to be easy. That you have less options than you think. (Udina says fairly early in the game, "I have more power now than any other human in history. Today you saw just how little that is.") That even with all you get to do, there are some things you just can't stop or stand in the way of (false paragon interrupts, anyone?). They let you say goodbye to your crew TWICE before you go on the final rush (granted, not all characters overlap for both goodbyes). Little conversation bits about synthetic life versus organic life creep up everywhere. Shepherd questions where s/he falls on the spectrum more than once without really receiving fulfilling answers, even when they are clear-cut.

The final choice you have to make in the game ends up being a pretty loaded question, and not really one to be surprised at. Do we destroy the Reapers in order save what we have here and now? Do we control them and hope for the best? Do we push the galaxy into a new phase of existence where there is no difference between synthetic and organic life?

It's not meant to be an easy question, and it's not meant to have easy answers. It's not meant to be a fair thing to ask Shepherd... or anyone, really. It's the hand we're dealt, and we have to make the most of it. Leaving the game is only an option if you take it quite literally and switch off your console (which, really, is an understandable reaction to being asked such a thing). Rather, the last decision we are asked to make is designed to make us think.

Unfortunately, the presentation of that last question raised a lot more immediate questions for most players, and thus the concept was not transmitted as clearly as it should have been to its audience. In many cases, it wasn't transmitted at all. The grief and the weight of the decision seem to have been, but the window to possibilities that extended beyond the end of the game was boarded over in such a way that most people just felt bereaved and left in darkness.

I wish Bioware the absolute best on their clarification DLC. Yeah, I think a lot of people have already made up their minds in such a way that it's unlikely the wounds they sustained from the current ending will be adequately salved over... but looking at what Bioware has given us thus far, even just in Mass Effect, I figure if anyone can do it, they can.

fle6isnow wrote...
 Yes, it's rather space magicky, but I can spheal with it.

 

Hahahahaha! I remember reading the first codex entries on eezo and biotics and going, "So, basically eezo is what allows us to do space magic." And that was prettymuch the end of that. I wouldn't have been surprised if eezo allowed me to turn cake into butterfies, really.

Ooh, that would be an awesome cake. Especially if you could eat the butterflies afterward, and they still tasted like cake....

Modifié par ardensia, 14 avril 2012 - 03:04 .

[fle6isnow]

Le bump, updated first page with some of Hudathan's links. Thanks for finding all the podcasts for me, dude! I rarely listen to them on my own, but some of those are pretty interesting.

@ardensia: now I'm tempted to make cupcakes with eezo-colored icing butterflies. They will be coffee-flavored, so they're bittersweet, like the endings.

[ardensia]

fle6isnow wrote...

@ardensia: now I'm tempted to make cupcakes with eezo-colored icing butterflies. They will be coffee-flavored, so they're bittersweet, like the endings.

If you do, take pictures!

[Hudathan]

fle6isnow wrote...

Le bump, updated first page with some of Hudathan's links. Thanks for finding all the podcasts for me, dude! I rarely listen to them on my own, but some of those are pretty interesting.

I've been having almost as much fun reading, listening, and participating in the ending debate as I did playing ME3. And unlike the actual game, this NEVER ENDS. For me, Bioware made an amazing game to conclude an amazing series and still managed to give me countless hours of meta content afterwards. They're m****g geniuses in my book.

[fle6isnow]

Hudathan wrote...

fle6isnow wrote...

Le bump, updated first page with some of Hudathan's links. Thanks for finding all the podcasts for me, dude! I rarely listen to them on my own, but some of those are pretty interesting.

I've been having almost as much fun reading, listening, and participating in the ending debate as I did playing ME3. And unlike the actual game, this NEVER ENDS. For me, Bioware made an amazing game to conclude an amazing series and still managed to give me countless hours of meta content afterwards. They're m****g geniuses in my book.

Oh I know! I love reading threads from both sides, and I especially love the threads about literary and thematic analyses, whether I agree with them or not.

[Isichar]

I dont consider myself a pro-ender but i like meaningful discussions and all so
BUMP
also im happy to see one of my pieces on that list...

[webhead921]

Hudathan wrote...


I've been having almost as much fun reading, listening, and participating in the ending debate as I did playing ME3. And unlike the actual game, this NEVER ENDS. For me, Bioware made an amazing game to conclude an amazing series and still managed to give me countless hours of meta content afterwards. They're m****g geniuses in my book.

I 100% agree with this!  When I first played the game, I left satisfied on a very basic level, in the sense that shepard killed the reapers and life goes on.  I chose the destroy ending, but afterwards I really began to question my decision, because I really like the geth.  I think there's a lot of potential for great discussion around ME3's ending, but a lot of people can't get past the poor presentation.  I'm glad that Bioware is not fundamentally changing the ending (hopefully!), but clearing up the presentation of the endings.

[ardensia]

fle6isnow wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

I've been having almost as much fun reading, listening, and participating in the ending debate as I did playing ME3. And unlike the actual game, this NEVER ENDS. For me, Bioware made an amazing game to conclude an amazing series and still managed to give me countless hours of meta content afterwards. They're m****g geniuses in my book.

Oh I know! I love reading threads from both sides, and I especially love the threads about literary and thematic analyses, whether I agree with them or not.

Yes.

[Torrible]

Hudathan wrote...

I think Bioware's illusion of control and personalization was so strong in this series that it was inevitably going to bite them in the proverbial ass when it came to cannon endings. They were able to hide this somewhat in ME1 because it was a new series and no one knew what to expect, and in ME2 through small variations of the Suicide Mission tailored to each player.

However, when it came time to end the Reaper story and lay down the groundwork for a post-Reaper galaxy, the 'limitations' of a story based game really rushed to the forefront. People are suddenly reminded that they've been playing as Bioware's Shepard and not merely their own Shepard.

And to be honest, it was always Bioware's Shepard, they just hid it well because there was little need to take direct control (lol) of the story until the very end.

I saw through it long ago, as early as meeting up with the Virmire survivor at Horizon. I had an uneasy feeling about how people were so certain actions like destroying/preserving the collector base are going to change their ME3 experience significantly. People were naively talking about given choices to either join Cerberus or the Alliance in ME3. I knew those expectations are going to blow up in their faces. 

Modifié par Torrible, 14 avril 2012 - 07:04 .

[fchopin]

Thank you op, will bookmark the thread so i can read when i have more time.

[Hudathan]

Torrible wrote...

I saw through it long ago, as early as meeting up with the Virmire survivor at Horizon. I had an uneasy feeling about how people were so certain actions like destroying/preserving the collector base are going to change their ME3 experience significantly. People were naively talking about given choices to either join Cerberus or the Alliance in ME3. I knew those expectations are going to blow up in their faces.

I just don't understand the perspective of people with a "glass 1% empty" approach to their fiction. I can't imagine what watching any movie with them must be like.

Let's completely ignore the fact that Mass Effect has been the single most ambitous series ever conceived and obliterated all realistic expectations for the level of storytelling that could be achieved in this medium. Instead, let's accuse Bioware of intentionally 'betraying' us for daring to write their own ending to their story.

Modifié par Hudathan, 14 avril 2012 - 09:39 .

[KingKhan03]

Hudathan wrote...

Torrible wrote...

I saw through it long ago, as early as meeting up with the Virmire survivor at Horizon. I had an uneasy feeling about how people were so certain actions like destroying/preserving the collector base are going to change their ME3 experience significantly. People were naively talking about given choices to either join Cerberus or the Alliance in ME3. I knew those expectations are going to blow up in their faces.

I just don't understand the perspective of people with a "glass 1% empty" approach to their fiction. I can't imagine what watching any movie with them must be like.

Sorry guys just wanted the ending of Mass Effect 2 to have a bigger effect on Mass Effect 3 I apologize.

[Hudathan]

KingKhan03 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

I just don't understand the perspective of people with a "glass 1% empty" approach to their fiction. I can't imagine what watching any movie with them must be like.

Sorry guys just wanted the ending of Mass Effect 2 to have a bigger effect on Mass Effect 3 I apologize.

I'm pretty sure I saw every single one of my squadmates in ME3. One of them even cured an entire species while the other helped me end a 300-year war.

[Gibb_Shepard]

No one loves the ending. People are okay with it, but have been pushed to using the word "love" out of a need to combat the anti-enders in similar levels of hyperbole.

It's unfortunate that this has happened. Bioware are now getting praise for a literary screw up.

[Hudathan]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No one loves the ending. People are okay with it, but have been pushed to using the word "love" out of a need to combat the anti-enders in similar levels of hyperbole.

It's unfortunate that this has happened. Bioware are now getting praise for a literary screw up.

I love the endings, and if you read the compendium you'll see that many others do as well, for very detailed reasons.

[Arppis]

I think the ending is alright. They should however cut the Normandy scene, that's about my only real gripe with it.

But the endings weren't bad! Use your imagination people, it helps you in the long run.

Modifié par Arppis, 14 avril 2012 - 08:53 .

[Foxhound2121]

Hudathan wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No one loves the ending. People are okay with it, but have been pushed to using the word "love" out of a need to combat the anti-enders in similar levels of hyperbole.

It's unfortunate that this has happened. Bioware are now getting praise for a literary screw up.

I love the endings, and if you read the compendium you'll see that many others do as well, for very detailed reasons.

I don't know. How can you love something if you don't know what that something is? Or do some people just love the idea of an unknown ending.

I know several people that thought they knew what happened, but once they learned it was speculation, they kind of changed their mind. Clarity and closure is the best thing to come to the ending.

[Hudathan]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

I don't know. How can you love something if you don't know what that something is? Or do some people just love the idea of an unknown ending.

I know several people that thought they knew what happened, but once they learned it was speculation, they kind of changed their mind. Clarity and closure is the best thing to come to the ending.

I like open endings, especially when it comes to big ideas that sci-fi likes tossing around. I welcome the extended cut because as much as I like the ending debates it's gotta stop some day. I want Bioware to come out with their answers to some of the questions people have regarding the ending and have that be the end of it.

I wouldn't mind seeing a small post-ending epilogue if it's well done and relevant. But there are plenty of themes I want left unanswered because they were written in a way where there are no easy answers, and that stuff is interesting to me.

Modifié par Hudathan, 14 avril 2012 - 09:11 .

[Zolt51]

Hudathan wrote...
Let's completely ignore the fact that Mass Effect has been the single most ambitous series ever conceived and obliterated all realistic expectations for the level of storytelling that could be achieved in this medium. Instead, let's accuse Bioware of intentionally 'betraying' us for daring to write their own ending to their story.

^^ This. So very much this. Should be stickied in red flashing characters on top of the forums.

To me, ME3 haters are comparable to people booked on the very first commercial space flight, who complain about the drinks on board. The ****ing drinks.

[fle6isnow]

Le bump, with a very interesting article. Thank you beccalikestoast for the link! It is one of THE best articles I've read about not just the endings, but Mass Effect as a whole.

galacticpillow.com/2012/04/02/editorial-the-reapers-advocate-a-different-take-on-the-mass-effect-3-ending

As Becca says, the article focuses on the plot from a hard scifi and astrobiological perspective as well as touching on some issues such as thematics later on.

I'll update the first post later when I have more links, but I hope you guys all read this!

Modifié par fle6isnow, 14 avril 2012 - 08:14 .

[ardensia]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

I don't know. How can you love something if you don't know what that something is? Or do some people just love the idea of an unknown ending.

I know several people that thought they knew what happened, but once they learned it was speculation, they kind of changed their mind. Clarity and closure is the best thing to come to the ending.

If I only loved things that I knew and understood, my life would be an incredibly loveless one. I love possibilities, even if I never get to see them come to fruition. I love chasing dreams and wondering about what could be based on what little information I have on what is. There's a lot I don't understand about how the internet works, or where my life is going, but I love them both... even with their crappy parts.

Honestly? I liked the ending more when I found out they wanted to leave it open to speculation. I thought it showed a lot of insight into their own inability to provide all the answers to the difficult questions in life. They could have slapped players around if they chose to go with the wrong ideal at the end, but instead they just kind of left it open, not condemning or condoning. Whatever their personal feelings were toward the path people should choose, they admitted the merits of all of them. The only truly bad ending is the one you get if you have practically no EMS and go with destroy.

Zolt51 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...
Let's completely ignore the fact that Mass Effect has been the single most ambitous series ever conceived and obliterated all realistic expectations for the level of storytelling that could be achieved in this medium. Instead, let's accuse Bioware of intentionally 'betraying' us for daring to write their own ending to their story.

^^ This. So very much this. Should be stickied in red flashing characters on top of the forums.

To me, ME3 haters are comparable to people booked on the very first commercial space flight, who complain about the drinks on board. The ****ing drinks.

 

Harsher words than I would choose, but I understand the sentiment. Mass Effect has been both ground-breaking and controversial since the release of the first game. It shouldn't come as a surprise that the final installment would hit those two points again.

The dev team put a lot of work into making this not only the best damn game ever, but really trying to push a mainstream video game into the realm of philosophical art. Whether or not they succeeded, it certainly shows they've got a quad. Their choice to prettymuch go down with the ship furthers it.

As a storyteller, I'm not exactly cool with the way the endings are presented. But as an artist, I can completely understand the sentiment that if even one person gets what you were trying to communicate with the piece, then it's worth everyone else's sneers and malcontent. And as evidenced by the main post in this thread, more than one person caught on to the ideas expressed by Hudson and others, and we ran with it.

Still looking forward to the EC. Bioware tells a hell of a story. I want to see what's so amazing that they're gonna dedicate 3 months to it.