40 réponses à ce sujet

[Closet Gamer]

This was with me solo'ing the mob, no tank , no second DPS and just Wynne healing but no other damage sources coming in. Rest of my companions were on Cautious. This was on Nightmare.

I've done this on my Dual Striking character and my Backstab Assassin. I will reload a save and test them against each other tonight and get some detailed numbers. I will also post the builds for both.

As I said, everyone on this thread overlooks the fact that backstabbing uses your mainhand only, robbing of you valuable damage from your second weapon and its' Runes/Enhancements. 15 elemental damage a swing not counting bonus damage from any coatings, (or vulnerability hex) + the base damage from the offhand itself will out damage the backstab, this I can guarentee.

Anyways, till tonight when I get can some hard numbers.

[Discobird]

Backstabs don't use your mainhand only, they alternate mainhand and offhand (despite the animation). But the mainhand runes trigger on EVERY attack. This is actually a plus for the backstab rogue, because it's as as if your mainhand runes were cloned in your offhand but you still get the benefits of passive offhand runes (e.g. Hale) with no dowside.

Yes, Dual Striking attacks with both hands at once, so you get +30 elemental damage instead of +15 if you have grandmaster runes in both weapons. But this is already accounted for when I say that Dual Striking only improves DPS by 20% because of its horrendous whiff rate.

Modifié par Discobird, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:36 .

[Closet Gamer]

Discobird wrote...

Backstabs don't use your mainhand only, they alternate mainhand and offhand (despite the animation). But the mainhand runes trigger on EVERY attack. This is actually a plus for the backstab rogue, because it's as as if your mainhand runes were cloned in your offhand but you still get the benefits of passive offhand runes (e.g. Hale) with no dowside.

Yes, Dual Striking attacks with both hands at once, so you get +30 elemental damage instead of +15 if you have grandmaster runes in both weapons. But this is already accounted for when I say that Dual Striking only improves DPS by 20% because of its horrendous whiff rate.

I've never seen the a bonus Rune Damage "cloned" like this? I have noticed that the backstabs will alternate between MH/OH but that's still only a single attack per swing timer, instead of the potential for two. I'm also not sure the miss rate for Dual Striking is as high as 40%. I read somewhere that it's a 33% increase to damage counting the 2/3 hit rate, though I'll have to relocate that post.

Are you saying that if my Offhand has 15 elemental damage and Mainhand has 15 elemental damage that one backstab from the Offhand will cause 30 elemental damage? I've never seen this.

PC version as well

Modifié par Closet Gamer, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:43 .

[Faerell Gustani]

Taritu wrote...

Huh. It never occured to me you could put more than one poison on your weapons at a time...

/facepalm
/Hits own head on desk cause he didn't realize this either.

[Discobird]

Maybe "cloned" was a bad way to put it, all I mean is that it's as if your offhand has the mainhand's runes in it, but it still gets the benefit of any passive (no on-hit effect) runes at the same time. You don't get +30 per hit with the offhand, you just get +15.



I observed a 40% whiff rate with 20 attacks. The chance that the true whiff rate was only 1/3 given this sample size is about 18%, which is not too unlikely. Still, even if the whiff rate is only 1/3 instead of 40%, that means Dual Striking only increases your DPS by 1/3 as compared to auto-attacking. Still somewhat less than backstabbing.

[Nooneyouknow13]

Discobird wrote...

The problem with Dual Striking is that it whiffs about 40% of the time, even if your attack is high enough to have 100% hit rate using normal auto-attacks against the target. So Dual Striking is only about a 20% increase in DPS as compared to auto-attacking, which is much less than what you get by backstabbing.

Foolie2 wrote:
Keep in mind that the damage numbers that appear overhead get swamped REALLY easily in this mode (especially if you add enchants + runes). You will often hit and do damage with no number appearing. Watch the health bars go down and you'll see that you haven't missed though.

I've tested this with the "cleanest" conditions I could get (no enchantments or runes, pausing after every swing to let the floaties clear up, engaging only one target at a time with no one else in my party participating). 40% of the time I whiff--no floaty, no "MISS," and no change in the target's health bar.

I don't get the whiff problem on a human male, at all, but I do on an elf female.

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:01 .

[Discobird]

That 40% figure comes from my female human noble. Weird that you would see a difference across races though. Are you sure your elf just doesn't have a lower chance to hit?

Modifié par Discobird, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:04 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

The elf has a much higher hit rate actually. I had to edit to state genders, since that really shouldn't have been left out. Human male never whiffs, elf female seems to whiff between 50 to 60% of the time.

[Closet Gamer]

I always play Human Male Noble for what it's worth.

[Drunkencelt]

Closergamer, your arguments make no sense.

Momemtum+Duelist+ whatever you want is more damage while backstabing then otherwise. With talents you can backstab from the sides as well so positioning is a joke. Your simply gimping yourself using Dual striking period. You might like the idea of it, but its lowering your damage.

I also don't waste points on dex or cunning and my backstabs are just fine.

[Closet Gamer]

Drunkencelt wrote...

Closergamer, your arguments make no sense.

Momemtum+Duelist+ whatever you want is more damage while backstabing then otherwise. With talents you can backstab from the sides as well so positioning is a joke. Your simply gimping yourself using Dual striking period. You might like the idea of it, but its lowering your damage.

I also don't waste points on dex or cunning and my backstabs are just fine.

To be seen

[ogreballerina2]

Personally I think it misses too much to be useful.

Momentum is alot of fun though...

Modifié par ogreballerina2, 05 décembre 2009 - 10:36 .

[Hizoka003]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

momentum is faster than haste

        const float MOMENTUM_ANIMATION_SPEED_INCREASE = -0.3f;
        const float HASTE_ANIMATION_SPEED_MODIFIER = -0.25f;

why do people insist on saying stuff that isnt right

because 4  out of 5 forum trolls are clinically stupid and are 100% clueless about everything

[Matthew Young CT]

it was a rhetorical question eheheh

i'll have to check that haste+momentum slows down attacks i cant see any reason for that to happen at all.



Disco: FYI Georg mentioned noting the dual striking whiff thing, but he suspects its purely an animation bug. It does seem to be a warrior only thing. Rogues are better of backstabbing.

[squidyj]

If I recall correctly there is a haste cap of 50% so 30% from Momentum and 25% from haste puts you over the cap and that has some strange behavior like none of the haste having any effect. I'm also given to understand that warriors can pop Precise Striking for -10% to jump back down to 45% and be under cap.

[Invalidcode]

Disco: FYI Georg mentioned noting the dual striking whiff thing, but he suspects its purely an animation bug. It does seem to be a warrior only thing. Rogues are better of backstabbing.

Pretty much this ^.

I got Zervan Dual striking and momentum and let him auto attack on his own when I play my own DW rogue, it worked pretty well (micro two rogues are a bit much). Also DS works with pin point stike iirc.

DS is more for warrior tbh.