291 réponses à ce sujet

[Avissel]

People seem to think a "happy ending" would automatically be like some of those fan endings that are going around that honestly are WAY over the top happy.

[Velocithon]

It not even that people are upset the ending wasn't happy; it's because we didn't even have the OPTION of a happy ending.

We should have been given an option for it based on our choices. Call me entitled, but Bioware has modeled this entire franchise around player choice, and they irrefutably rob you of that in the last 10 minutes so they can ram their artistic integrity down your throat andy beg you to buy more DLC.

Modifié par Velocithon, 11 avril 2012 - 02:23 .

[AllThatJazz]

 I don't honestly understand the hostility. I'm not against the existence of a grimdark ending where the reapers win, or the victory is a pyrrhic one. I'm not against a sad ending that sees the Earth destroyed but a flicker of hope for the galaxy. I'm not against an ending where Earth and the galaxy is saved, but Shepard has to die. Go for it, if that makes sense to you. No less valid than these, however, is an ending that shows Shepard alive and reunited with those she loves (aside from Mordin, Legion, Thane, Anderson and maybe Miranda, Jack, Samara, Kelly, VS - which amounts to plenty of personal loss, thankyou!), albeit in a galaxy that has suffered terrible damage and will take centuries or millennia to recover. Whatever that ending is, it doesn't involve an effing rainbow.

UGH. It is SO important to end a game, any game, with a feeling of accomplishment for the player. Instead, I feel slightly gutted at having experienced the double whammy of knackered internal logic and loss of agency thanks to the Catalyst, and an at best ambiguously positive end sequence that requires me to fill in the blanks myself.  

I do hate that I feel slightly guilty for admitting the following (as though there's something wrong with wanting this, which there isn't):  I would very much like a scene that shows Shepard being cuddled by Garrus at the end. Or equivalent. Thankyou. 

[JayneD]

GBGriffin wrote...

Honestly, the general consensus I've read is that people feel the ending shouldn't be happy because people believe that war is brutal, Shepard HAS to die, and that life isn't always fair or happy, and there shouldn't be the option for it to be happy because it would be viewed as the "right" ending.

I strongly disagree with this. While I will admit that war is awful and life isn't fair...I don't need to play games to remind me of this; I play them to forget about those truths because fantasy games, imo, shouldn't have to be governed by real life truths. They're fantasy; anything should be possible, and a hero in a fantasy, even if it might fit an archetype, should never "have" to do anything in a truly original piece.

I wanted a happy ending more than anything, or at least the option for one with a crew/LI reunion. I can live with the rest if that would just happen...I'm hoping it still might.

This, exactly this.

Why do I pay money to be reminded how life can suck so badly? I want to be taken away from the often grim, usually boring and always ending in death reality of life.

[nwj94]

People like to pretend that by liking a dark ending it is somehow more mature than a happy ending. They also like to pretend that by them "getting" it they are somehow more mature/important/smart than those who are unhappy.

Most real writers (J.K. Rolling, J.R Tolkien, C.S. Lewis) will tell you that if properly executed a happy ending is just as good. Dark does not necessarily = Deep just as Happy does not necessarily = cliched

There is nothing wrong with Dark, but it has to be done properly. Also shoehorning the player into a dark ending in a game where choices should matter just leaves the player feeling powerless and annoyed. Compared to ME2 where if you worked hard you got a different result as compared to when you did a slipshod job, ME3 just feels rushed and not thought out.

[Goroxx]

***Slight spoiler warning for the Hunger Games novels***

My wife is a middle school lit teacher. In their classes' discussions about the Hunger Game's trilogy (because that's what's hot right now), its noted that someone important throughout the series dies at the end. A lot of the kids were pissed about it. In their discussions, they talk about why, what was the author's purpose, message, etc.

When I explained the Mass Effect ending to her, she referred back to this issue in the Hunger Games, and didn't see how necessarily a "bad" ending was bad, from a literary standpoint. But as we talked more, it turns out there's a huge difference between the two.

In the Hunger Games, the author goes on to tell you the rest of the story in a true epilogue. The death has meaning because that meaning is explained with closure, even though for that character, its a "bad" ending. After discussing and working through the epilogue, the kids in her class understood the author's intent, and are able to come to terms with the death of that character.

However, in Mass Effect 3....there was no epilogue, besides a few weird disjointed scenes that made the viewer go "huh?". There was no closure, no context to put the meaning of Shepard's sacrifice into. From a literature standpoint, she explained, "That's crap!" (I jokingly asked her if that was an official lit crit term). We both agreed that the current "bad" endings - and lets face it, the death of Shepard with no hope of reuniting with your crew or LI or anything is pretty bleak - without context or closure is just plain bad storytelling, And IMHO, unworthy of the greatness that is the ME franchise.

[The Night Mammoth]

No idea. It's quite funny, to be honest, most games I've played recently have dark endings, I think a nice uplifting one would be a breath of fresh air.

So long as it fits the story.


Seeing how this is Mass Effect, a game that repeatedly beats you over the head with both fatalism, and optimism equally, have two other games that either end on an awesome '**** yeah' moment in the case of ME1, or end however you want it to in the case of ME2, which includes a '**** yeah' ending as a possibility, gives you the capability to 'do everything right' as it were, and has an ending where millions have died, planets have been devastated, and uncountable atrocities have been committed, a 'happy' ending where Shepard and his crew can just sit down and relax after it's all over, eventually rebuilding and mourning the dead, wouldn't be out of place providing you prepare for the final battle as much as possible and make all the right decisions.

[Goroxx]

Sion1138 wrote...

Also, the character in the book was not your avatar, Shepard was. The impact is not the same.

Very true.  It wasn't an exact analogy, to be sure.  

That may be part of the problems with the discussions surrounding the ME3 endings...its story and format are so unique, there are no other analogies for it.  Standard models for criticism don't fit.

Modifié par Goroxx, 11 avril 2012 - 03:18 .

[Reorte]

Sion1138 wrote...

Also, the character in the book was not your avatar, Shepard was. The impact is not the same.

And the crew feel almost like your friends. Mass Effect was the first time I'd seen how a game has the potential of having a much deeper personal effect than a film or a book because the interactivity (even if it runs on tracks) forges a much closer relationship with the characters than is possible with other media. And its their fate that hurt the most for me, friends lost, LI presumably grieving... It was genuinely upsetting, and not in the works well way that, say, Mordin's death was. Because I know that they're fictional I could shake that off and get on with things in a way that wouldn't be possible with real friends and lover but at the instant it didn't feel too much different for me.

[mauro2222]

tractrpl wrote...

I would have preferred an ending where Shepard runs in with guns blazing and barely making it to the catalyst, activating it, killing all Reapers. That would have been realistic and acceptable. Anyone saying "but that's not a HAPPY ending", well, it is, from a soldiers perspective. He gave his life protecting his country, which happens to be the entire galaxy. If you've never served, you'll probably never understand.

Oh yeah, because protecting the life of billions its the same as protecting interests.

It's a game, it's not supossed to be realistic. Play a simulator if you want realism.

[EliteOp-11]

because bioware is lazy and rather kill off shep and have it end then get creative and show him living.......

[sfam]

Mass Effect is all about realism, man! That's why we have space magic!

[Goroxx]

Reorte wrote...

And the crew feel almost like your friends. Mass Effect was the first time I'd seen how a game has the potential of having a much deeper personal effect than a film or a book because the interactivity (even if it runs on tracks) forges a much closer relationship with the characters than is possible with other media. And its their fate that hurt the most for me, friends lost, LI presumably grieving... It was genuinely upsetting, and not in the works well way that, say, Mordin's death was. Because I know that they're fictional I could shake that off and get on with things in a way that wouldn't be possible with real friends and lover but at the instant it didn't feel too much different for me.

THIS^^^^^

This is why wan't that frikkin' happy ending.  I truly cared about these (admittedly fictional) people.  The true genius of Bioware is that these characters came to life for the player in such a way that we "know" them as people, rather than as "quest givers" or other faceless computer game NPC's.

The real world is full enough of pain, sorrow and loss.  My imaginary ones should have some respite from it.  

[Aslanasadi]

GBGriffin wrote...

Honestly, the general consensus I've read is that people feel the ending shouldn't be happy because people believe that war is brutal, Shepard HAS to die, and that life isn't always fair or happy, and there shouldn't be the option for it to be happy because it would be viewed as the "right" ending.

I strongly disagree with this. While I will admit that war is awful and life isn't fair...I don't need to play games to remind me of this; I play them to forget about those truths because fantasy games, imo, shouldn't have to be governed by real life truths. They're fantasy; anything should be possible, and a hero in a fantasy, even if it might fit an archetype, should never "have" to do anything in a truly original piece.

I wanted a happy ending more than anything, or at least the option for one with a crew/LI reunion. I can live with the rest if that would just happen...I'm hoping it still might.

This

[Reorte]

Goroxx wrote...

Reorte wrote...

And the crew feel almost like your friends. Mass Effect was the first time I'd seen how a game has the potential of having a much deeper personal effect than a film or a book because the interactivity (even if it runs on tracks) forges a much closer relationship with the characters than is possible with other media. And its their fate that hurt the most for me, friends lost, LI presumably grieving... It was genuinely upsetting, and not in the works well way that, say, Mordin's death was. Because I know that they're fictional I could shake that off and get on with things in a way that wouldn't be possible with real friends and lover but at the instant it didn't feel too much different for me.

THIS^^^^^

This is why wan't that frikkin' happy ending.  I truly cared about these (admittedly fictional) people.  The true genius of Bioware is that these characters came to life for the player in such a way that we "know" them as people, rather than as "quest givers" or other faceless computer game NPC's.

The real world is full enough of pain, sorrow and loss.  My imaginary ones should have some respite from it. 

The really sad thing is that for the same reasons it can be so amazingly uplifting, beyond other fictional media, when it satisfies. The renegade interrupt on Kai Leng felt so good, for example. Some sadness is needed along the way to make final victory all that much sweeter. A lot of sadness is needed at the end if you mess up the game to really hammer that home.

But what did we get? I just posted this in another thread:

"Without Shepard all my LI's personal hopes are dashed to the point where I could see them thinking "I've helped do what's needed for the galaxy but there's nothing left for me now, BANG". Result - I've driven my favourite character into the greatest depression. Thank you very much for that lovely culmination of the romance arc."

Why deliberately do that to anyone? It's just cruel.

Modifié par Reorte, 11 avril 2012 - 03:32 .

[AllThatJazz]

Goroxx wrote...

Reorte wrote...

And the crew feel almost like your friends. Mass Effect was the first time I'd seen how a game has the potential of having a much deeper personal effect than a film or a book because the interactivity (even if it runs on tracks) forges a much closer relationship with the characters than is possible with other media. And its their fate that hurt the most for me, friends lost, LI presumably grieving... It was genuinely upsetting, and not in the works well way that, say, Mordin's death was. Because I know that they're fictional I could shake that off and get on with things in a way that wouldn't be possible with real friends and lover but at the instant it didn't feel too much different for me.

THIS^^^^^

This is why wan't that frikkin' happy ending.  I truly cared about these (admittedly fictional) people.  The true genius of Bioware is that these characters came to life for the player in such a way that we "know" them as people, rather than as "quest givers" or other faceless computer game NPC's.

The real world is full enough of pain, sorrow and loss.  My imaginary ones should have some respite from it.  

Totally. I really do not understand how Bio didn't get that. I mean they created these characters we're all so attached to, they've seen the gazillion romance threads, the Garrus plushies, the Tali DeviantArt, they're aware of the fanfic at least; and yet they somehow thought that we wouldn't consider those characters to be some of the most important parts of our ME ending experience? Hey, who cares whether Shep and Liara have blue babies as long as some old guy and his weirdly shaped grandkid are happy in 10000 years, right?!

Jeebus. I need a cup of tea. 

[PistolPete7556]

Lisylis wrote...

I feel like the writers of the ending didn't want it to be particularly "video game"-y.

Pity it's actually a video game.

lol

[pjotroos]

Because true art is angsty. Also, sacrifice and death is so original, it literally was never done before.

[UnstableMongoose]

To the OP:

My contention is that a "happy" ending, as you seem to be defining it isn't a satisfying conclusion. Throughout the course of the Mass Effect series, Commander Shepard sacrifices very little. In fact, Shepard becomes nothing if not more powerful, influential, and well-connected. While Shepard increases in stature, thousands of around him, dozens of whom are named characters, die protecting him from his fate over and over again.

Essentially, everyone around Commander Shepard is putting everything on the line to stop the Reapers. It's even a distinct possibility that Conrad Verner, sidekick joke character, will take a bullet to save Commander Shepard from a Cerberus agent.

A Commander Shepard who doesn't make the ultimate sacrifice to save humanity changes from a hero to a lucky bastard. The narrative of Commander Shepard's willingness to risk and lose everything for the cause of life itself is cheapened by the Commander surviving.

The ending as it exists is not a sad ending. The shackles of the Mass Relays, used for millions of years by the Reapers to control the development of life, are shattered. Commander Shepard's heroic sacrifices end the Reaper threat. Peace exists between nations that were thought to be locked in eternal conflict. And all of it is because of the actions of Commander Shepard. It is not a "sad" ending that Commander Shepard died in the culmination of his efforts to save the galaxy. It is a "happy" one, because all of the hard choices that he made, all the sacrifices of his friends and comrades, and the unflinching determination that he showed are all rewarded with the greatest reward possible.

Countless trillions of lives will live on, free from the daunting specter of being harvested that has overshadowed the galaxy for eons. Shepard saved all of them. More lives than could ever be counted are owed to the valiant efforts of the Normandy's crew. And that is what a true "happy" ending is--not one that ignores the suffering and death that exists in the universe, but one that transcends it.

[pjotroos]

@UnstableMongoose

This is exactly why I loved the series though. It was escapistic fun. I liked being that lucky bastard.

[Goroxx]

Reorte wrote...

 The renegade interrupt on Kai Leng felt so good, for example. 

Oh yes!  I was whoopin' and hollerin' at the monitor when that happened.  And it was precisely because of the tragic/heroic death of Thane. 

There's a LOT of tragedy and sorrow and lost friends along the way in the ME series, starting all the way back on Eden Prime.  Another reason I want the so-called "happy" ending where Shepard lives is because he or she is the vessel into which the hopes and dreams of all those lost characters were poured.  Shepard is the one constant through all these disparate character's lives, and with his/her survival, a piece of all those lost ones is carried forward - they are not truly lost, and their deaths are vindicated.  

To put it another way: in the Havamal poem in the Norse Poetic Edda, there's a bit of wisdom:

"Cattle die, kinsmen die, you yourself will die.  But I know one thing that never dies: the fame of the honored dead" 

Who is the only one throughout the series who carries the memories of all the honored dead?  Shepard.  The glory of the deeds of those people lost along the way in the fight against the Reapers is bound to Shepard.  In my mind, he must live, so that they will not be forgotten.  

To paraphrase a slogan from the ad campaign for Mass Effect 2: Shepard fights for the lost.  Which is why as players we must be given the option (if we chose) for him/her to live.

I'm stopping now, because I realize I'm rambling way too far into the realm of the metaphysical 

Modifié par Goroxx, 11 avril 2012 - 03:58 .

[Goroxx]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

To the OP:

My contention is that a "happy" ending, as you seem to be defining it isn't a satisfying conclusion. Throughout the course of the Mass Effect series, Commander Shepard sacrifices very little. In fact, Shepard becomes nothing if not more powerful, influential, and well-connected. While Shepard increases in stature, thousands of around him, dozens of whom are named characters, die protecting him from his fate over and over again.

Essentially, everyone around Commander Shepard is putting everything on the line to stop the Reapers. It's even a distinct possibility that Conrad Verner, sidekick joke character, will take a bullet to save Commander Shepard from a Cerberus agent.

A Commander Shepard who doesn't make the ultimate sacrifice to save humanity changes from a hero to a lucky bastard. The narrative of Commander Shepard's willingness to risk and lose everything for the cause of life itself is cheapened by the Commander surviving.

The ending as it exists is not a sad ending. The shackles of the Mass Relays, used for millions of years by the Reapers to control the development of life, are shattered. Commander Shepard's heroic sacrifices end the Reaper threat. Peace exists between nations that were thought to be locked in eternal conflict. And all of it is because of the actions of Commander Shepard. It is not a "sad" ending that Commander Shepard died in the culmination of his efforts to save the galaxy. It is a "happy" one, because all of the hard choices that he made, all the sacrifices of his friends and comrades, and the unflinching determination that he showed are all rewarded with the greatest reward possible.

Countless trillions of lives will live on, free from the daunting specter of being harvested that has overshadowed the galaxy for eons. Shepard saved all of them. More lives than could ever be counted are owed to the valiant efforts of the Normandy's crew. And that is what a true "happy" ending is--not one that ignores the suffering and death that exists in the universe, but one that transcends it.

While my views regarding Shepard are different from yours, this is by far the BEST reasoning I've read throughout this whole ending upheaval regarding the necessity of Shepard's death.  Really makes me see the other side of the coin.

Because of the nature of of the game, I don't see how both sides can exist.  It shouldn't be an "either/or" proposition...it should be a "both/and".  The option should be there for people like me who wish for the survival and "happy end; it should also be there for those who who see Shepard's sacrifice as a trancendent triumph.  

Here's hoping the Extended Cut DLC addresses the desires of all the fans, because it can if they wish it to.

Modifié par Goroxx, 11 avril 2012 - 04:10 .

[Lee T]

I expected Shepard to die and a tragic ending, but I have no problem with the existence of a happy ending (it would actually have surprised me which is a good thing imo).

[Naoe]

Because writing a happy ending for a story like this is hard. Bioware obviously didn't have a good writer, and they would never lower themselves to using deus ex machina, insane characters or changing the premises of the story in medias res...
Oh wait...