644 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

Vilegrim wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Wrong. That's semantic wordplay. If you're saying "sacrifice" can be unwilling, then your definition of sacrifice is actually no different from murder or genocide.

Because if I decide to kill a friend of mine to save a million people, I sacrifice my friend.  I'm actually a bit shocked that you'd unequivocally declare it murder.  It becomes a slippery slope.

It is uequivovally murder, we then get to argue wether it was the lesser evil, but it was still murder.  If your friend was aware that his death would save a million and died willingly, THEN it would be a sacrifice.

In the end it commes down to the question, are the geth volunteering? or are they being volunteered to make the sacrifise. They are obviously being volunteered in a manner similar to how (sorry for getting back to it since its a crazy analogy) Hitler voluntered the Jews to deathcamps for what he thought was the greater good.

There is a huge difference between a person or a group sacrifising themselves for a greater good and another party sacrifising them for a greater good.
One is altruistic the other isn't. I'm not sure what the geth would think, Im pretty sure they would prefer synthesis or controll over beign destroyed, after all they rather asked the reapers for help than going extinct at the hands of the Quarrians. That't the difference between sacrifising for the greater good and simply being sacrificed.

[DJBare]

Chrillze wrote...

legion999 wrote...
It is genocide they think and they experience emotions.

They are still machines and are not alive

By whose definition?, gee, we humans are so full of ourselves.

[Xandurpein]

robertm2 wrote...

synthetics are not people. killing of robots to save the galaxy seems like a far trade. killing of humans even to save the galaxy is a fair trade. its not wrong its compromise. besides the fact that people who say that its genocide are either crazy or looking for something to nitpick at because they didnt like the ending i seriously hope they are never forced to face a tough decision like saving the galaxy. because we would all be screwed. edi is not alive legion is not alive your fridge is not alive. unless you are schizo maybe than your electronic appliances are alive in your mind. still not genocide and even if it was its not wrong and very necessary.

It all comes down to semantics. How do you define "life"? I would consider an AI that was sufficiently advanced to be self-conscious to be "sentient". If it also was capable to self-replication I would call it "life". You may disagree, and we would never be able to prove anything, either of us, unless we were able to agree on the definition of the words "sentient" and "life".

Most arguments become exercises in futility unless you first ensure that you agree on the semantics.

[ABjerre]

Adugan wrote...

Shepard killed all life in the galaxy by controlling the Reapers and continuing the cycle.

Not all life. Only the advanced races that had become too technologically dependant. Remeber, the humans were around when the reapers last came, but was spared as a races because we were only monkeys at the time.

[pharsti]

The geth arent even the only race you can help wipe out, so i still dont understand why so many people see a problem with it and ignore other instances. You can wipe the rachni, you can wipe the quarians, you can wipe the geth, you can screw the krogan (thou this is not immediate extinction XD).... yet everyone gets stuck on the last choice, you could wipe out the geth even before then!

Also, depending on how you played the game, maybe Shepard doesnt even think about the geth as living beings, maybe she just sees them as toasters with guns. Either dangerous toasters or usefull toasters is another different point.

[Archontor]

shepard1038 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

How can a synthetic being have a soul?

What is a soul, why are you so sure organics have one?

It is the inmortal essence of a person. A lot of cultures think so.

 

Considering how separable geth program's are from their bodies they're nothing but souls

[bladehawks]

I cant help feeling we are forgetting one crucial fact. Shepard's Heart is powered by A SYNTHETIC Genoicide pertains to targeting a specific group the geth said they would help him kill the old ones in a way The Geth sacrificed them selves without Knowing it fully. the geth were one of the most awesome.

[DJBare]

Archontor wrote...
Considering how separable geth program's are from their bodies they're nothing but souls

That just earned you +1 internets.

[WeAreLegionWTF]

I'm glad to see bioware actually was responding in this thread. One of the things i was looking forward to most before release was how the geth quarian war played out, and bringing peace to them was a great feeling.

So regarding the destroy/genocide ending... simply put I do not trust it, or any ending for that matter. What is the the logic in shepard having to destroy the machine thats supposed to destroy the reapers in order to to destroy the reapers. Asides from the small bit of overt symbolism involved in the act, It really just serves to make players distrust the choice. You spent the entire game building the thing, now your gonna blow it up because the kid says it will destroy the reapers, and as a side effect all synthetics?

For me at least, the way the choices were presented simply made me suspicious of choosing any of them. (i disagree with the whole indoctrination thing wholeheartedly, but many people were crying indoctrination just to make it make sense, and that says something.). From those ive talked to most players were left feeling too dubious and distrustful about any of the choices to ponder the ethics of any of them.

Modifié par WeAreLegionWTF, 11 avril 2012 - 10:47 .

[Stonesoundjam]

It's a cop out in my opinion. The whole thrust of the series was the availability (within certain parameters) of choice and the resulting repercussions of that choice. In a sense, Mass Effect was a fun play on the karmic cycle of cause and effect. To suddenly railroad the player at the finale by rewriting the results of much of their efforts with a paradigm shift and negation of a whole spate of choices over the course of the series.

It's equivalent to your opponent flipping over the checkerboard after you've been kinged.

Unjust.

[kumquats]

pharsti wrote...

The geth arent even the only race you can help wipe out, so i still dont understand why so many people see a problem with it and ignore other instances. You can wipe the rachni, you can wipe the quarians, you can wipe the geth, you can screw the krogan (thou this is not immediate extinction XD).... yet everyone gets stuck on the last choice, you could wipe out the geth even before then!

Also, depending on how you played the game, maybe Shepard doesnt even think about the geth as living beings, maybe she just sees them as toasters with guns. Either dangerous toasters or usefull toasters is another different point.

Of course you can screw a lot of organic races. The truth is, that people accept the destroy ending as the best ending. Even if they kill synthetic life. Why?
Because their Shepards take a deep breath. Uh amazing...

I don't think the Geth are 'dead'. But the Reaper code, this thing that made them alive and true intelligent, is destroyed. They are toasters again.
It's an incredible cruel ending. Shepard gives them life, just to take it away again. But most of the players are busy crying over Joker living on Paradise Island. Poor Joker.

300.000 Batarians or millions of Geth, there is no difference.

Don't call it genocide, call it ruthless caculus. But I don't like it when people think. Killing of the Geth means, that they kill machines. It's not that simple.
The Geth are alive after Rannoch. <-

You kill of the Geth, there is nothing. If you doom the Krogans, you really feel guilty about it. I don't think that's fair at all.

[Silpheed58]

To the original discussion:

-Mass murder would apply to what happened in Arrival as not all the Batarian race was killed.

-As far as the Geth are concerned... It depends on how you view race regarding A.I.'s. We are all part of the race called humans, but we further divide ourselves into subraces based on our color and region. Is the same thing or can the same thing be applied to A.I.'s in the game especially since the Geth and EDI are the only prominent A.I.'s shown in the game. If we can divide A.I.'s into sub-races, then yes Shepard committed genocide. If no then can we say genocide can be committed on a species that can be recreated later? Even though the personalities we knew won't be present, it's still A.I. life.

[DTHD]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Because if I decide to kill a friend of mine to save a million people, I sacrifice my friend.  I'm actually a bit shocked that you'd unequivocally declare it murder.  It becomes a slippery slope.

No. You murdered your friend to save a million lives.

For it to be a true sacrifice your friend would have to make the choice to die themselves.

A sacrifice must primarily be OF YOURSELF. No one else has the right to make that choice for you.


I'm actually a bit shocked that you'd ever consider choosing to kill another living being a sacrifice because of the emotional hurt you may feel. Your feelings are irrelevant in the face of what you've just done. it becomes a slippery slope....

[Silpheed58]

DTHD wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Because if I decide to kill a friend of mine to save a million people, I sacrifice my friend.  I'm actually a bit shocked that you'd unequivocally declare it murder.  It becomes a slippery slope.

No. You murdered your friend to save a million lives.

For it to be a true sacrifice your friend would have to make the choice to die themselves.

A sacrifice must primarily be OF YOURSELF. No one else has the right to make that choice for you.


I'm actually a bit shocked that you'd ever consider choosing to kill another living being a sacrifice because of the emotional hurt you may feel. Your feelings are irrelevant in the face of what you've just done. it becomes a slippery slope....

I disagree, it is a sacrifice on the part of the one doing the killing because he is giving up that which he loves to save the millions of people.  It's not a sacrifice on the part of the person who is slain.  Although with those odds at stake he might sacrifice himself.

Also, the word sacrifice does not just mean the act of selflessly giving up something of value.  Ancient tribes sacrificed a lot of people to their "gods" as gifts and some of them were unwilling slaves or people captured.  

[Silpheed58]

DTHD wrote...

Your feelings are irrelevant in the face of what you've just done.

Wrong there too, that's why there is a difference between muder and manslaughter in the eyes of the law.

[Avissel]

Silpheed58 wrote...
If we can divide A.I.'s into sub-races, then yes Shepard committed genocide. If no then can we say genocide can be committed on a species that can be recreated later?  

If I kill you, and clone you. You are not still alive.

If the Reaper God is right and your destroy the current Geth, then yes it's genocide. Because you can make new ones later and call them Geth all you want, but they won't be the same indivudals.

[Silpheed58]

Avissel wrote...

Silpheed58 wrote...
If we can divide A.I.'s into sub-races, then yes Shepard committed genocide. If no then can we say genocide can be committed on a species that can be recreated later?  

If I kill you, and clone you. You are not still alive.

If the Reaper God is right and your destroy the current Geth, then yes it's genocide. Because you can make new ones later and call them Geth all you want, but they won't be the same indivudals.

No, that's make you a murder, it's not genocide because the race would then be in existence.

Genocide:
the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group 

I would be willing to concede maybe until the Geth were re-created you could argue for genocide but if they return it's not.

[Avissel]

Silpheed58 wrote...
No, that's make you a murder, it's not genocide because the race would then be in existence.

Genocide:
the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group 

I would be willing to concede maybe until the Geth were re-created you could argue for genocide but if they return it's not.

(sigh)

You if you kill all the geth, then make a new species and call them geth, that doesn't mean YOU NEVER KILLED THE GETH.

You still commited Genocide.

[Gnoizic]

Victory fleet starves on a depleted Earth, other races' colonies starve or die off because they don't get necessary supplies from other worlds because the Mass Relays (and thus quick transit) are destroyed. Economy is in the crapper. Turians and Quarians stranded at Earth and similar planets starve faster (different dietary needs). Races who could help one another rebuild are far disconnected.

There's more where that came from. Your actions in destroying the relays have repercussions, even if you don't see them immediately.

[Raiil]

Silpheed58 wrote...

Avissel wrote...

Silpheed58 wrote...
If we can divide A.I.'s into sub-races, then yes Shepard committed genocide. If no then can we say genocide can be committed on a species that can be recreated later?  

If I kill you, and clone you. You are not still alive.

If the Reaper God is right and your destroy the current Geth, then yes it's genocide. Because you can make new ones later and call them Geth all you want, but they won't be the same indivudals.

No, that's make you a murder, it's not genocide because the race would then be in existence.

Genocide:
the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group 

I would be willing to concede maybe until the Geth were re-created you could argue for genocide but if they return it's not.

Instead of geth, God Child states that the pulse will kill all hanar in the galaxy. You choose destroy.


200 years from now, someone learns how to clone hanar dna and they homebrew themselves some hanar into existence.


Is it no longer genocide?


This argument will never be 'solved' because there are people who view the geth as sentient beings who are fully 'persons' regardless of their composition, and there are people who view the geth as nothing more than really hi tech machines that can be rebuilt. From what I gather (and correct me if I'm wrong), those who view them as really hi tech machines think that rebuilding their software is resurrecting them, regardless of the fact that their personalities and life-experiences have been wiped out.

[Silpheed58]

Avissel wrote...

Silpheed58 wrote...
No, that's make you a murder, it's not genocide because the race would then be in existence.

Genocide:
the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group 

I would be willing to concede maybe until the Geth were re-created you could argue for genocide but if they return it's not.

(sigh)

You if you kill all the geth, then make a new species and call them geth, that doesn't mean YOU NEVER KILLED THE GETH.

You still commited Genocide.

I disagree, sentient or not, they are still software and can be replicated.  The Geth could be recreated, I do not hold to the opinion Genocide is possible for beings that can be replicated.  

[Raiil]

Silpheed58 wrote...

Avissel wrote...

Silpheed58 wrote...
No, that's make you a murder, it's not genocide because the race would then be in existence.

Genocide:
the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group 

I would be willing to concede maybe until the Geth were re-created you could argue for genocide but if they return it's not.

(sigh)

You if you kill all the geth, then make a new species and call them geth, that doesn't mean YOU NEVER KILLED THE GETH.

You still commited Genocide.

I disagree, sentient or not, they are still software and can be replicated.  The Geth could be recreated, I do not hold to the opinion Genocide is possible for beings that can be replicated.  

No one wrote the geth as they are now. They were VI machines that interfaced until it gave rise to their sentience. They evolved, it seems, largely on their own, as the quarians started to get panicky over it later on. The quarians didn't write the geth as AI machines.


And you could never rewrite their past experiences, what they lived through. They have ascended into personhood and now have unique thought patterns and opinions.

[RDSFirebane]

DJBare wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

legion999 wrote...
It is genocide they think and they experience emotions.

They are still machines and are not alive

By whose definition?, gee, we humans are so full of ourselves.

^ pretty much this who are you to say what is and isnt alive or to decided who's exsistence is or isnt as important as our own. The geth have as much right to exsist as any other race in that universe.


alot of you people need to go watch I Robot or bicentennial man  I feel they both apply here as well when robots like legion start showing human like emtions and thoughts such as do I have a soul they are showing the ablity to go past their programming and grow which is simply amazeing and like a one in a million orderal

Modifié par RDSFirebane, 11 avril 2012 - 03:50 .

[Avissel]

Valentia X wrote...
No one wrote the geth as they are now. They were VI machines that interfaced until it gave rise to their sentience. They evolved, it seems, largely on their own, as the quarians started to get panicky over it later on. The quarians didn't write the geth as AI machines.

And you could never rewrite their past experiences, what they lived through. They have ascended into personhood and now have unique thought patterns and opinions.

Not only that but the Reaper upgrades turned them into true indviduals.

Thier indivudal personalities, the thing that actaully makes them " them" is gone. You would be createing a new indvidual.

[Jayleia]

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

And are therefore, sentient.

If you are sentient, you are alive.

Therefore synthetics are alive.

Killing them en masse is genocide.