644 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

Silpheed58 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Silpheed58 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Dranks wrote...
I love the Geth, but they can be rebuilt.

I love Mordin, but we can simply make new Salarians exactly like him!

No, seriously. The Geth are individuals if they're still alive in the end. The same Geth individuals can not be rebuilt. They're all dead.

Your arguing the individual over the whole.

No, I'm not! I'm arguing for both!

When Legion uploaded the reaper code, he turned all the Geth into individuals with their own separate, unique consciousnesses. You can't just rebuild them! They're dead!

Yes, those specific units are dead.  So, if there is any reaper code, nothing saying there isn't just that they are dead, the quarians can make more Geth using said code and there will be new Geth.  They will not have the life of the previous Geth, but they will be Geth.  The race lives.

You would've still killed them all. You monster.

And so what if you can re-create them? You can do that with organics. It's called cloning.

End of the day, Shep either turned hypocrit and controlled them, synthesised my toaster into something with organic parts, or committed genocide on the Geth and killed EDI (You monster.).

Uhm, no. This stinks. BioWare, stop being lazy and redo it. Use that giant pile of money to make it as it should be.

[Shallyah]

I'm a proud Geth genocidal. See I'm not playing with words. I saved the Galaxy and trillions of real lives in the millions of years to come, and also avenged trillions of innocent lives in the past, mothers and the babies they held crying in their arms by agreeing to destroy some manufactured spacejunk called "Geth" in the process. And I would do it every time again. Proudly so, forever.

If for you I'm a monster, for me your opinion has no value as you're a cynic and a hypocrite.

Modifié par Shallyah, 11 avril 2012 - 08:04 .

[NurseMack]

I suggest people watch this.

I see the Geth as a race. And destroying the Geth in my eyes is genocide. It doesn't matter if they were created by organics. Just my two cents.

[robertm2]

Shallyah wrote...

I'm a proud Geth genocidal. See I'm not playing with words. I saved the Galaxy and trillions of real lives in the millions of years to come, and also avenged trillions of innocent lives in the past, mothers and the babies they held crying in their arms by agreeing to destroy some manufactured spacejunk called "Geth" in the process. And I would do it every time again. Proudly so, forever.

If for you I'm a monster, for me your opinion has no value as you're a cynic and a hypocrite.

boo yah! 10/10

[savionen]

robertm2 wrote...

savionen wrote...

robertm2 wrote...

thats flawed logic. thats no different than saying that one batarian from bring down the sky is a terrorist so they must all be evil. the relays were not hit with a giant asteroid they were shut down. shutting down a nuclear reactor and blowing it up would have very different results. just because it happens once in the game doesnt mean you should base every assumption on that. the only reason it was posted on twitter is because people assumed that everyone was dead and everything was destroyed but do you really think if that was the case that they wouldnt show earth or one of the other planets being blown up? and than you have shepards breath scene which is impossible if a relay just went supernova.  players should not take everything at face value the only reason they even consider that is because they want thing to nitpick at in regards to them not liking the ending.

If everything was okay don't you think they'd show that? Works both ways.


Edit: In ME1, when you don't see if Shepard is alive or not, if Shepard never popped out of the rubble, and everyone walked away, would you still assume Shepard is alive?

When you see an explosion, its a natural reaciton to assuming everything is dead unless shown otherwise.

it was not an explosion. it was more akin to an emp blast. the only reason people assume that is because they want the ending to suck. thats all it comes down to. and as far as me1 goes i would maybe think he is dead but the fact is its alot easier to imply happy things then it is to imply utter destruction. something of that magnitude would not be left out the blast it showed would have been much more devasting and much larger and to think that bioware would simply kill off all life in the game after defeating the reapers is just foolish. people just want something else to complain about.

The explosion was an example, not saying it was an explosion instead of some sort of EMP. My point was that they don't give enough information. I'm saying it's bad storytelling. The Mass Relays are an example of this. We know that the Mass Relays are required to travel from one side to the galaxy to the other.

The Mass Relays are "destroyed", so it's reasonable to assume that many people will starve or never see their homes again, because at the end of ME3 there is no evidence that a new way of traveling will be created, or that hospitable planets are nearby, or that the relays can be repaired, etc.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

No matter which choice you make you are not the galactic hero everyone hoped you'd be. You have become that which you hated in all three ending choices. This is exactly what I hated about the ending.

[Silpheed58]

M0keys wrote...

But you've murdered countless innocent individuals. You can't rebuild the people who died, and you can't justify murder by saying there will be more to take their place. That's nutty!

I never intended to justify it I'm horrified that it happens, I just think the word genocide does not apply.  Mass murder yes, not genocide.

[Silpheed58]

savionen wrote...

Silpheed58 wrote...

Yes, those specific units are dead.  So, if there is any reaper code, nothing saying there isn't just that they are dead, the quarians can make more Geth using said code and there will be new Geth.  They will not have the life of the previous Geth, but they will be Geth.  The race lives.

That's like saying we killed all Asari in the universe but it's okay because there's some tissue samples laying around and we can clone some new ones.

If it makes asari the race is not dead, not genocide, just mass murder.

[eric2465]

Silpheed58 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Dranks wrote...
I love the Geth, but they can be rebuilt.

I love Mordin, but we can simply make new Salarians exactly like him!

No, seriously. The Geth are individuals if they're still alive in the end. The same Geth individuals can not be rebuilt. They're all dead.

Your arguing the individual over the whole.  And yes, the Geth can be rebuilt, they just will have to go through a longer evolution to get where the reaper codes vaulted them to.

The Geth now are individuals.  Just like Humans are individuals.  Killing all the millions of individual Geth is genocide however one chooses to headcanon it.

[Silpheed58]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Silpheed58 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Silpheed58 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Dranks wrote...
I love the Geth, but they can be rebuilt.

I love Mordin, but we can simply make new Salarians exactly like him!

No, seriously. The Geth are individuals if they're still alive in the end. The same Geth individuals can not be rebuilt. They're all dead.

Your arguing the individual over the whole.

No, I'm not! I'm arguing for both!

When Legion uploaded the reaper code, he turned all the Geth into individuals with their own separate, unique consciousnesses. You can't just rebuild them! They're dead!

Yes, those specific units are dead.  So, if there is any reaper code, nothing saying there isn't just that they are dead, the quarians can make more Geth using said code and there will be new Geth.  They will not have the life of the previous Geth, but they will be Geth.  The race lives.

You would've still killed them all. You monster.

And so what if you can re-create them? You can do that with organics. It's called cloning.

End of the day, Shep either turned hypocrit and controlled them, synthesised my toaster into something with organic parts, or committed genocide on the Geth and killed EDI (You monster.).

Uhm, no. This stinks. BioWare, stop being lazy and redo it. Use that giant pile of money to make it as it should be.

True.

[Silpheed58]

eric2465 wrote...

Silpheed58 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Dranks wrote...
I love the Geth, but they can be rebuilt.

I love Mordin, but we can simply make new Salarians exactly like him!

No, seriously. The Geth are individuals if they're still alive in the end. The same Geth individuals can not be rebuilt. They're all dead.

Your arguing the individual over the whole.  And yes, the Geth can be rebuilt, they just will have to go through a longer evolution to get where the reaper codes vaulted them to.

The Geth now are individuals.  Just like Humans are individuals.  Killing all the millions of individual Geth is genocide however one chooses to headcanon it.

Not head canon, symantics.

[xefiroEA]

I like this thread. Interesting arguments all around.

I couldn't pick Destroy, EDI and the Geth are too high a cost to pay for the destruction of the Reapers. As to why, imagine you and a friend are lost in the forest. You swear to find the wait out together, but as you search for civilization you are attacked by wolves. You both start running, but it becomes obvious that they are going to catch you.

You have a choice: trip your friend, which will make all the wolves focus on him and let you escape, keep running and possibly die with your friend, or throw yourself at the wolves to buy time for your friend. Would you trip your friend to save yourself? This is more or less the scenario the Destroy ending presents. Do you throw your allies to the wolves to buy your people more time? Or is it preferable to die fighting alongside them?

I think it brings up an even deeper question: are your morals worth dying for? The sad fact of life is that living a virtuous life doesn't guarantee a long life. We tell each other that the moral path is better, and in general it is. Someone who knows he did the right thing doesn't have to deal with shame or guilt, and those can be pretty powerful emotions. Some people will even try to right their wrongs to do away with them, undoing the benefit they gained in the first place.

But while a virtuous life will give most people a sense of satisfaction, it doesn't guarantee that you'll live to a ripe old age, or that it will get you out of situations where a pragmatic approach might save your life. That's generally where rationalization kicks in, and horrific acts start being justified. Life's fundamental unfairness brings two powerful drives to come into conflict: the desire to live versus the desire to be good.

We might think how much more good we can do if we compromise on this one thing, for example. Or that we don't mean for our friend to die, we just want to live so much more and his death is a byproduct. Or that if we don't trip him, he might trip us. Or that he is going to die anyway.

Some people would likely sacrifice themselves, if they believe there really is no other choice. Some might keep running hoping to somehow live and remain innocent. Some might be tripped by their friend and die thinking they should have tripped them, the bastard.

The analogy is not perfect, of course. The ending doesn't actually offer you the chance to sacrifice yourself to save everyone. Except the blue, maybe. I'd like to know what exactly it means for Shepard to die and lose everyone, but still exert his will over the Reapers. Given the state you left the galaxy in, they'd probably be even worse off when you returned to reap them. So there's no option that lets you remain innocent.

However, and this is pretty insidious of them, there is a choice that lets you live. Destroy with high EMS. So we have two choices that are bad and kill you, and one that is bad but lets you live.

I don't think it's very surprising to find so many people trying to justify the red ending.

[M0keys]

I'm certainly not trying to justify it. It's evil as hell and so are the rest.

[frylock23]

The Irish Man wrote...

 When the relays blew up it wasn't like the exposion from the arrival relay. The relays simply fell apart leaving all the races stranded in their own systems. During the destroy ending Shepard only kills all synthetics. The star child never said he would kill all life. The explosions from the individual relays most likely transported everyone to different places as seen with the Normandy. I'm pretty sure everyone didn't die because the alliance soldiers were stil on Earth after the blast.

When Shepard kills all synthetics can we call it a genocide or a sacrifice? I'm calling it a sacrifice because even though the Geth are a sentient form of mechanized life they are not organic. Shepard killing off the Batarians is a genocide but he did it as a sacrifice. I believe that Shepard in no way is committing genocide. Feel free to discuss. 

In the sythesis ending you rewrite the genetic structure of every living thing in the galaxy. Sure it may not die, but whatever it was before, it isn't that now and never will be that again. You have eradicated every unique lifeform out there. IMO that's galaxy-wide genocide of every living organism and every synthetic one. In one instant, they ceased to be and became other.

Modifié par frylock23, 11 avril 2012 - 08:14 .

[xztr]

A sacrifice requires the person in questions approval of termination.
If you choose that for them its not sacrifice its murder.

[PsyrenY]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...
 The player should get his information from the game itself, not Twitter.  

In a perfect world I'd agree, but come on. If you throw a lit match into a gas tank, which will have the bigger explosion - a full gas tank, or an empty one? You see the relays fire off all their energy BEFORE exploding, why would you think the explosion would have the same force as a regular, non-shooting Relay?

M0keys wrote...

I guess technically you can if you just chill out on the Crucible and let it blow up (and who blew it up, btw? the Reapers? They'd blow up the home of their own God-Admiral? huh?)

1) The Citadel is his home actually, not the Crucible.

2) Even if they hadn't blown up the Crucible they'd still have decimated the army. So while you're "chilling out" thousands of soldiers are being slaughtered while waiting for you to do something. Shepard would never stand for that.

3) Starkid tells you that "he can't make the new possibilities happen." Which means he can't stop the Reapers from their original mission without your intervention.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 11 avril 2012 - 08:17 .

[JesseLee202]

robertm2 wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

I'm a proud Geth genocidal. See I'm not playing with words. I saved the Galaxy and trillions of real lives in the millions of years to come, and also avenged trillions of innocent lives in the past, mothers and the babies they held crying in their arms by agreeing to destroy some manufactured spacejunk called "Geth" in the process. And I would do it every time again. Proudly so, forever.

If for you I'm a monster, for me your opinion has no value as you're a cynic and a hypocrite.

boo yah! 10/10

agreed 10/10 

[Raiil]

Okay, one of the things that some people seem to be missing is that you can't rewrite the geth.



You can't rewrite the Geth. No one wrote that AI program.


The Geth were VI that were hooked together and allowed to network/interface in order to be more efficient. From that network, they eventually evolved into sentience. No one sat down and wrote that code to make them self aware; it was evolution; albeit of the digital sort. The closest thing we have in game to homebrewed AI is EDI, and she herself is more or less cobbled together from pre-existing sentient machines, one of which evolved the same as the Geth.

You could renetwork many VI systems, try to recreate the same conditions as from before, and hope for the best, but the Geth, with their unique history and digital evolution, and their culture, would never exist before. Making new AI would no more bring back the Geth than manipulating lizard DNA into a giant dragon would bring back the dinosaurs.  

Eta: dragon, not frog, whoops. 

Modifié par Valentia X, 11 avril 2012 - 08:22 .

[formshifter]

Just because they lack genes does not mean it isn't genocide. The truth is, all the endings are (kind of) harsh.

Control: Even assuming Shepard's willpower will let him control the Reapers, how long until he decides to use them? He sees synthetics doing something that he disagrees with, or organics doing something stupid/dangerous and intervenes. Even if that didn't happen, the way the human psyche functions (and even after everything, Shepard is human) you lose interest after a while. Your vision of life and existence is based on the length of your life (that's why 5 minutes seems much shorter when you're 50 than when you are 5). After a few millenia, Shepard wouldn't even see Asari as more than restless children. He'd eventually consider himself more qualified to control the galaxy's destiny and impose his vision on the races.

Synthesis: Shepard decides that he is the one who has the right to decide the fate of all life. He imposes his belief and changes the fabric of existence. After this, many cultures and species will become incredibly different. Life won't be the same at all. This imposition takes away the very thing you were fighting for: the ability for life to determine its own fate. You may have "saved" everyone, but in doing so you remade them without their input or knowledge.

Destroy: The Geth are sentient; if you choose to save the Geth or both them and the Quarians, then they are turned into individual sentient beings. You have chosen to save more through your actions, but the truth is that you still annihilated an entire species of sentient creatures. Shepard has, on the words of an ancient AI that he has no reason to trust, decided the fate of an entire species and the galaxy.

Regardless of your choice, the entire Relay system is destroyed. Even with standard FTL, there will be little to no long distance travel. When moving between one side of the galaxy and the other, it will take decades, maybe centuries. It's basically the situation on Earth, but on smaller scales. How long before all the races are at their own throats for resources/ideals/opinions?

[M0keys]

Optimystic_X wrote...

1) The Citadel is his home actually, not the Crucible.

2) Even if they hadn't blown up the Crucible they'd still have decimated the army. So while you're "chilling out" thousands of soldiers are being slaughtered while waiting for you to do something. Shepard would never stand for that.

3) Starkid tells you that "he can't make the new possibilities happen." Which means he can't stop the Reapers from their original mission without your intervention.

...That...still doesn't explain why the Crucible blows up if you wait long enough.

[Ticonderoga117]

Optimystic_X wrote...
3) Starkid tells you that "he can't make the new possibilities happen." Which means he can't stop the Reapers from their original mission without your intervention.

And why the hell not? They are "his solution".
Would any sane intellegiance create something as destructive as the Reapers and not hardcode an "OFF" button?
No. Either he's insane or full of it. I think it's both.

[Mr_Blue]

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

I'm really late to the party, but is there really a difference between amino acids that allow life and code that allows sentient AI?

Humans go from primordial soup, single cells, water animals, skip a few billion years, to Common Ancestor, skip a few hundred thousand years, to ****** Habilis, to ****** Erectus, to ****** Sapiens.

Geth go from a disk drive, to a server, to an internal server, to a compilation of all of the above, to having a mobile platform, skip a few hundred years, to becoming sentient, to becoming sentient with the entire sentient collective having distinct personalities and capable of repairing and upgrading themselves for their own survival.

Modifié par Mr_Blue, 11 avril 2012 - 08:27 .

[PsyrenY]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

And why the hell not? They are "his solution".
Would any sane intellegiance create something as destructive as the Reapers and not hardcode an "OFF" button?
No. Either he's insane or full of it. I think it's both.

Well, there is an off-button actually (the red pipe.) But he can't "press it."
Everything about him screams "shackled AI" to me. The Crucible gave him new possibilities, either by removing some kind of restraint he had, giving him the energy needed to perform a function he had previously deemed unfeasible, or a mix of both. Installing it was akin to plugging EDI into the Normandy - it fundamentally changed them both.

M0keys wrote...

...That...still doesn't explain why the Crucible blows up if you wait long enough.

He can't deviate from his course (reaping) until the energy of the Crucible is released. It sucks but it's also plausible.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 11 avril 2012 - 08:30 .

[TheCrazyHobo]

Modifié par TheCrazyHobo, 11 avril 2012 - 08:45 .

[Barbie__Boy]

I personally think the geths had a "soul" before the reapers code
remember the mission where you destroy or control geth in ME2?
you made decision because the geth didn't agree on what to do.

before the code they were dependent on each other but still could think differently (like the heretics)
the code only made them truly independent