644 réponses à ce sujet

[greggm2000]

Tony208 wrote...

The fact that the ending can be interpreted this way is not a good thing imo, the game made you believe you were a big godamn hero leading up to that point.

3 choices, all of them bad. 4 if you count "do nothing"... but sometimes the universe is like that, and Shep's certainly seen hard choices. I have problems with the ending, but not having an "easy" choice isn't one of them.

On the other hand, does your Shep believe the godchild? If she doesn't (or has serious doubts), then the question changes. The way I played it, I wasn't sure... but given her history, given what she's seen and given that the godchild stated some things that didn't make a lot of sense, and were clearly wrong based on her experience, she chose Destroy, hoping that the Geth and EDI would survive... but willing to suffer it if not, knowing that all the alternatives were probably worse.

I guess I'll see this summer if that was a good decision..

[Archontor]

The geth said the reaper code was beautiful, they felt shame, they questioned philosophy if you take introspection a sense of aesthetics and desire and the ability to judge yourself morally how can you be sure you are a person?

[Xandurpein]

Tony208 wrote...

The fact that the ending can be interpreted this way is not a good thing imo, the game made you believe you were a big godamn hero leading up to that point.

That's not what the Batarians think...

[kumquats]

Tony208 wrote...

The fact that the ending can be interpreted this way is not a good thing imo, the game made you believe you were a big godamn hero leading up to that point.

Depends on what you are playing.
My Renegade used... 'careful diplomancy'. I never felt like I was playing a hero anyway. LoL

With my Paragon, it's just hard to pick an ending. But I tend to go for Control, I have to make sure that the Paragon dies. For RP reasons.

[Allan Schumacher]

vinyalonn wrote...

And also what about all the stuff that was revealed during the consensus? When it showed the geth were growing and evolving in ways that no one had predicted or intended.  What stood out to me the most was what Legion said regarding the quarians who died sacrifcing themselves trying to save and protect the geth. That:

"We have kept records of these creators' sacrifices. They have largely been forgotten by their own people. But not by the geth."

That was even before they achieved "true AI status". That plucked a major heart-string for me, for whatever reason. I can't view the geth as "just machines" personally.

You know, I bet that helped play a role with what motivated them to not chase down the Quarians after pushing them off of Rannoch.  I wonder if they would have done so if there hadn't been Quarians that empathized with the Geth.

[bathor]

Well Mass Effect is more like Trek story than Space Opera. For the franchaise is closer to star trek universe and story telling than to the space opera genre (vel star wars). As for "trek" game this should be much more closer to science-fiction.
Since i am quite a fan of such a literature for a long time, i find out that this game is just silly at the end handling all information which you are able to gather for all the saga in some broken way.
Here is some examples:
1. As far as i know as it is explained in codex and in Arrival DLC in ME2 blowing up the mass reley which is located in the star system will destroy the whole star system. At the end of ME3 story we mainly destroy them all, including the one which is locted in the solar system - did i miss something with explanation bout them? are those mass releys different than the one from arrival? whaat the heck?
2. And the bigest one which i never had any answer about. Durning all ME3 you are gathering army from different planets with different species. Now lets go back tot he sf part. On the planet Earth only one spiece evolved - which is humans. Means that planet Earth can provide only what is nessesery to survive for one spiece. In simple words Earth can provide: water in state which humans can drink (who knows what voluses or i dunno asari drinks), food - same, air which you can breath - only for special races etc... So at the end you are at Earth wtih all this frikin huge army of yours collected from different spieces. At the end when releys are destroyed and earth magicaly sruvives it (yay) all those races are here - means that they are all going to die in pain and agony worser than from beeing killed by reapers.
Gathering all those races is just commiting the genocide to every spiece in the galaxy, beacouse there is no road back to their planets after all... nice one.

[greggm2000]

bathor wrote...

Well Mass Effect is more like Trek story than Space Opera. For the franchaise is closer to star trek universe and story telling than to the space opera genre (vel star wars). As for "trek" game this should be much more closer to science-fiction.
Since i am quite a fan of such a literature for a long time, i find out that this game is just silly at the end handling all information which you are able to gather for all the saga in some broken way.
Here is some examples:
1. As far as i know as it is explained in codex and in Arrival DLC in ME2 blowing up the mass reley which is located in the star system will destroy the whole star system. At the end of ME3 story we mainly destroy them all, including the one which is locted in the solar system - did i miss something with explanation bout them? are those mass releys different than the one from arrival? whaat the heck?
2. And the bigest one which i never had any answer about. Durning all ME3 you are gathering army from different planets with different species. Now lets go back tot he sf part. On the planet Earth only one spiece evolved - which is humans. Means that planet Earth can provide only what is nessesery to survive for one spiece. In simple words Earth can provide: water in state which humans can drink (who knows what voluses or i dunno asari drinks), food - same, air which you can breath - only for special races etc... So at the end you are at Earth wtih all this frikin huge army of yours collected from different spieces. At the end when releys are destroyed and earth magicaly sruvives it (yay) all those races are here - means that they are all going to die in pain and agony worser than from beeing killed by reapers.
Gathering all those races is just commiting the genocide to every spiece in the galaxy, beacouse there is no road back to their planets after all... nice one.

The thing is, you don't have all the information. None of us do.

Yes, a Mass Relay getting hit by a large asteroid will cause uncontrolled energy release equivalent to a supernova, but that's likely different from the Mass Relays getting hit by a bolt of energy that was intended to cause a chain reaction (like we saw), where the Mass Relays were deliberately designed to operate this way.

We don't know what the other species require, except broadly, in terms of food and liquid... and where there's a mismatch, some of that may be dealt with by supplementation.

The Earth survives (assuming sufficient EMS), but it's not "magical", it's a design of the crucible... there'd be no point in wiping out the reapers if you also wiped out all galactic life.. and I'm sure the originators of the crucible understood that.

We don't know if there's other ways to do FTL.  Most likely there is, else why would the reapers and/or godchild go to the trouble of making the Mass Relays in the first place? Furthermore, we don't know what state the Mass Relays themselves are in, aside from the rings being destroyed. And there's more unknowns.

Fact is, we have some guesses, but we just don't know. And the DLC will hopefully tell us most of what we want to know.

[RockSW]

geth are sentient, period

[bathor]

@greggm2000 

Sorry my friend but i just cant agree. in ME2 is clearly stated in the dlc that explosion of mass reley will destroy the star system in which it is located.
So becouse you just cant simply change the law of physic (yes i know its SCFI but lets be resonable) if thing explodes which has such a power like it is sad in me2 it just has to be the same. All mas releys are build same, so it gives you the conclusion that all are based on same law of physic means explosion = destory the star system.

[schwarzaj]

Like it or not, Arrival established that the destruction of a relay is the same as a super nova going off in a solar system. It doesn't matter that the energy pulse thing at the end is "different" then a giant asteroid hitting a relay, the result has already been defined. Plus, you see from a GALAXY WIDE VIEW that the energy pulse hits nearly everything. Bioware coming out and saying that the relay destruction is "different" is just their attempt at damage control. Unless the game provides an answer, the relay destruction = mass genocide.

[Durontan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You know, I bet that helped play a role with what motivated them to not chase down the Quarians after pushing them off of Rannoch.  I wonder if they would have done so if there hadn't been Quarians that empathized with the Geth.

As by what Legion showed and explained of Geth, they wouldn't go and chase Quarians even if not a single one empathized. Through the computer "dream" and Geth rememberance (and Legions conversations in ME2) we are showed that Geth really only wanted to survive and not exterminate. It "pained" (in lack of a better word for a computer life form) them that they couldn't open a dialogue with Quarians and bring peace. As soon as Quarians stoped beeing a threat for their existance they stoped attacking Quarians, tbh by all means Geth are probably the single race of the galaxy that deserved survival, as they were only ones that have no motives of greed, jelousy, anger that would take them to war of passion that all other races suffer from.

Truth is, they don't have love, joy etc but they are still evolving and might have reached such emotions. Just take Legion as example with his "attachment" to Shepard and his N7 plating. That in it's own is proof of their evolve, in the proper direction.

[darthoptimus003]

red= genicide= galaxy wide destruction
green= BORG + genicide= galaxy wide destruction
blue= reaperdom cycle continue {genocide] = galaxy wide destruction
arrival dlc shows this is what happens when a relay is destroyed {solor system it was in BOOM} and this IS what happens in all three color coded endings
now bw says the relays wernt really destroyed sorry cant have cake and eat it to

[Ender Ghost]

Don't forget that choosing the destroy ending also kills the Quarians because of their synthetic interfaces for their suits.

Also possibly all the people who got biotic implants.

[greggm2000]

bathor wrote...

@greggm2000 
Sorry my friend but i just cant agree. in ME2 is clearly stated in the dlc that explosion of mass reley will destroy the star system in which it is located.
So becouse you just cant simply change the law of physic (yes i know its SCFI but lets be resonable) if thing explodes which has such a power like it is sad in me2 it just has to be the same. All mas releys are build same, so it gives you the conclusion that all are based on same law of physic means explosion = destory the star system.

schwaraj wrote...
Like it or not, Arrival established that the destruction of a relay is
the same as a super nova going off in a solar system. It doesn't matter
that the energy pulse thing at the end is "different" then a giant
asteroid hitting a relay, the result has already been defined. Plus, you
see from a GALAXY WIDE VIEW that the energy pulse hits nearly
everything. Bioware coming out and saying that the relay destruction is
"different" is just their attempt at damage control. Unless the game
provides an answer, the relay destruction = mass genocide.

My point is that there's a difference between a controlled explosion and an uncontrolled one.

An uncontrolled explosion is the asteroid strike. That will cause a supernova-level explosion, as was established in Arrival. Shep knows this.

A controlled explosion is what happens in the ending. The Mass Relays themselves are designed for this specific event. It gets a beam of energy of unknown characteristics, which uses and co-opts that energy beam, and cascades it to the next relay. We assume that doing this causes an overload (again, the Mass Relays are designed for this exact occurence), and causes the relay to at least partly explode. We still don't know how much damage, because the camera shifts away mid-explosion. We are told that the mass relays will be non-functional, which is only true IF the godchild was telling the truth AND was 100% accurate as to the results (note that while the relays and the citadel were designed for this eventuality, it's never been tested)

Given that mass extinction would be contrary to the intent of the godchild and/or the original builders of the mass relay network, I think it's safe to say that the explosion did not cause that end result.

I don't think it goes against canon to say that the technological state of things will be better than most people are expecting... but of course we don't know, and we won't know until the Ending DLC comes out at the earliest.

[Untold]

Icinix wrote...

Green = Cultural Genocide
Red = Synthetic Genocide
Blue = Eventual total galactic Genocide again anyway.

That's unfortunately the perception with the incomplete ending. Throughout the game (up until that horrible ending anyway) I would have drawn the conclussion that assets we obtained could shape the blast and focus the energy and targeting of the Crucible much better. Maybe the Extended Cut will help elaborate on that.

I still think that the IT folks have made some good arguments on how this could unfold, heck that would have been a great storyline, but if it isn't in the cards I hope the Extended Cut is fairly detailed on how your choices actually play out.

[Foreste]

greggm2000 wrote...

bathor wrote...

@greggm2000 
Sorry my friend but i just cant agree. in ME2 is clearly stated in the dlc that explosion of mass reley will destroy the star system in which it is located.
So becouse you just cant simply change the law of physic (yes i know its SCFI but lets be resonable) if thing explodes which has such a power like it is sad in me2 it just has to be the same. All mas releys are build same, so it gives you the conclusion that all are based on same law of physic means explosion = destory the star system.

schwaraj wrote...
Like it or not, Arrival established that the destruction of a relay is
the same as a super nova going off in a solar system. It doesn't matter
that the energy pulse thing at the end is "different" then a giant
asteroid hitting a relay, the result has already been defined. Plus, you
see from a GALAXY WIDE VIEW that the energy pulse hits nearly
everything. Bioware coming out and saying that the relay destruction is
"different" is just their attempt at damage control. Unless the game
provides an answer, the relay destruction = mass genocide.

My point is that there's a difference between a controlled explosion and an uncontrolled one.

An uncontrolled explosion is the asteroid strike. That will cause a supernova-level explosion, as was established in Arrival. Shep knows this.

A controlled explosion is what happens in the ending. The Mass Relays themselves are designed for this specific event. It gets a beam of energy of unknown characteristics, which uses and co-opts that energy beam, and cascades it to the next relay. We assume that doing this causes an overload (again, the Mass Relays are designed for this exact occurence), and causes the relay to at least partly explode. We still don't know how much damage, because the camera shifts away mid-explosion. We are told that the mass relays will be non-functional, which is only true IF the godchild was telling the truth AND was 100% accurate as to the results (note that while the relays and the citadel were designed for this eventuality, it's never been tested)

Given that mass extinction would be contrary to the intent of the godchild and/or the original builders of the mass relay network, I think it's safe to say that the explosion did not cause that end result.

I don't think it goes against canon to say that the technological state of things will be better than most people are expecting... but of course we don't know, and we won't know until the Ending DLC comes out at the earliest.

I second that

[Baa Baa]

Jamber wrote...

WOW, the geth aren't a "people". You seemed to have missed an entire quadrant of the ideas brought to the table by the game (and honestly, this has been a complex ideal to quantify in sci-fi, and philosophy for even longer), what makes a being a "living being", and what constitutes a soul. I can't believe I have to reitterate this, but, throughout the entirety of the series, the geth as a "people" has been a major player in the story. And, even if you want to deny they aren't a "people" if they never upgraded with reaper code to become true AI's, (which I'm hoping you are not arguing that true AI's aren't a "people" either. That is a very philosophical debate), then all of the OTHER AI's in the galaxy will also cease to function, and who's to say there is only EDI?

Wiping out all synthetics wouldn't be genocide, if we could be 100% sure that all synthetics in the galaxy were not self-aware. Because we can't say that, we have to assume that there are sentient synthetics out there. Also, Shepard was stated as being partially synthetic, and would die; wouldn't that mean the Quarians would probably die too? They use a lot of synthetics to keep themselves alive. Do you think their suits work mechanically?

The quarians don't die in the end, I did destroy in my end and Tali and Garrus made it out of the Normandy. Plus my Shepard made it out alive (or at least with one gasp) which might prove that the kid was wrong about everything (since the kid states that since Shepard is partly synthetic the destroy option will kill him). And maybe only the reapers were destroyed. Paragon Shepard (whom I always choose to be) seems to always be right and when the kid says, "Then the chaos will come back again," when refering to the synthetics going against their makers, Shepard responds with, "Maybe." Because Shepard doubts this. Maybe the boy had the power to allow Shepard to live, since he has basically defied him and created peace for the whole galaxy, or even further, allow only the reapers to be destroyed because he considered Shepard's doubt and decided to give the galaxy a chance. It's just something I thought might be kind of cool, but it still doesn't explain Joker's **** betrayal of Shepard. That's just a ridiculous plot hole .

[greggm2000]

Baa Baa wrote...
It's just something I thought might be kind of cool, but it still doesn't explain Joker's **** betrayal of Shepard. That's just a ridiculous plot hole .

One of the ideas floating around out there (see threads elsewhere) is that Shep is on the Normandy at that point, after having been rescued. The clip of the Normandy isn't necessarily in the right sequence, since it nicely heightens dramatic effect when it is (if you hold your nose and pretend it makes sense). It's not hard to imagine scenarios why the Normandy would leave IF Shep is on board, and if the battle for Earth is over.

[Baa Baa]

greggm2000 wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...
It's just something I thought might be kind of cool, but it still doesn't explain Joker's **** betrayal of Shepard. That's just a ridiculous plot hole .

One of the ideas floating around out there (see threads elsewhere) is that Shep is on the Normandy at that point, after having been rescued. The clip of the Normandy isn't necessarily in the right sequence, since it nicely heightens dramatic effect when it is (if you hold your nose and pretend it makes sense). It's not hard to imagine scenarios why the Normandy would leave IF Shep is on board, and if the battle for Earth is over.

Wow I never thought about Shepard being on the Normandy. Good point.

[MrSuperCrazyAwesome]

It's not genocide because Shepard didn't kill the Geth systematically and with the intention of killing them all because of racial prejudice. That's the definition of genocide. He killed the Reapers, his goal for the entire series, and stopped them from "genociding" everyone else. The Geth were unfortunately caught in the middle. Also, did the Quarians commit genocide on the Geth if you let the Quarians kill the Geth? Is that different?

[Skyhawk02]

Based on this thread it seems to me that a lot of the people who don't like the ending have a real problem with moral ambiguity. They want to believe that when faced with a decision there is one right answer and all other answers are wrong or inferior.

I think it was a bold move on Bioware's part to challenge this belief, but maybe it's a lesson that gamers weren't ready to learn.

[Joccaren]

shepard1038 wrote...
 you're insane you can't compare robots to a person and to humans.

You ARE a robot. Honestly. Your circuitry is made of nuerons, and your programming is done in Phosphorous, Nitrogen, Sulfur, Oxygen, Hydron and Carbon. You 'think' by passing electric signals along these nuerons, and through chemical reactions in the brain. In basics, you are a robot.
Your argument could somewhat stand as a "But they're like animals" sense - until you realise the Geth are actually sentient, or that there are numerous activists for animal rights.

Honestly, give me 1 good reason why the Geth can't be considered on the same level as Organic sentients. Honestly, there is none.

[Wolvy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

vinyalonn wrote...

And also what about all the stuff that was revealed during the consensus? When it showed the geth were growing and evolving in ways that no one had predicted or intended.  What stood out to me the most was what Legion said regarding the quarians who died sacrifcing themselves trying to save and protect the geth. That:

"We have kept records of these creators' sacrifices. They have largely been forgotten by their own people. But not by the geth."

That was even before they achieved "true AI status". That plucked a major heart-string for me, for whatever reason. I can't view the geth as "just machines" personally.

You know, I bet that helped play a role with what motivated them to not chase down the Quarians after pushing them off of Rannoch.  I wonder if they would have done so if there hadn't been Quarians that empathized with the Geth.

You know Allan, part of me wants to say no they wouldn't have done the same. In the Morning War I was under the belief they were just starting the whole consensus thinking.  By consensus the Geth who did witness the empathetic Quarians would pass this on to the other Geth. If none of the Geth had witnessed empathetic Quariansthen this would not have been passed on.

[Warrior Craess]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Organic life has value why? Well we all value different things and THAT makes us valuable as a whole. The Geth (Because they are machines) do not. All human life is 99.9% identical yet we vary greatly. Geth do not. We choose our own path, we chose to live and love and do so how and with whom we choose. Geth...do not

I'm not sure the Geth do not value different things. Legion refers to itself in the first person (which he never does) by the end of the sequence on Rannoch. It also demonstrates the ability to have compassion and empathy when he says "Keelah Se'lai" to Tali.

It seems to me that last bit of uncertainty of how sentient the Geth were disappears at the end of Rannoch.

to further expand on this, the geth most certainly value other things, people etc... As demonstrated in their decision not to persue the Quarrians after the first war. Anything capable of being called intelligent (hive mind or othewise) would have to understand that to leave a defeated foe an escape (or simply to not commit genocide) ir to risk conflict with them again.  The geth knew this and deliberately choose not to eradicate the Quarrian.

[Skull Bearer]

greggm2000 wrote...

bathor wrote...

@greggm2000 
Sorry my friend but i just cant agree. in ME2 is clearly stated in the dlc that explosion of mass reley will destroy the star system in which it is located.
So becouse you just cant simply change the law of physic (yes i know its SCFI but lets be resonable) if thing explodes which has such a power like it is sad in me2 it just has to be the same. All mas releys are build same, so it gives you the conclusion that all are based on same law of physic means explosion = destory the star system.

schwaraj wrote...
Like it or not, Arrival established that the destruction of a relay is
the same as a super nova going off in a solar system. It doesn't matter
that the energy pulse thing at the end is "different" then a giant
asteroid hitting a relay, the result has already been defined. Plus, you
see from a GALAXY WIDE VIEW that the energy pulse hits nearly
everything. Bioware coming out and saying that the relay destruction is
"different" is just their attempt at damage control. Unless the game
provides an answer, the relay destruction = mass genocide.

My point is that there's a difference between a controlled explosion and an uncontrolled one.

An uncontrolled explosion is the asteroid strike. That will cause a supernova-level explosion, as was established in Arrival. Shep knows this.

A controlled explosion is what happens in the ending. The Mass Relays themselves are designed for this specific event. It gets a beam of energy of unknown characteristics, which uses and co-opts that energy beam, and cascades it to the next relay. We assume that doing this causes an overload (again, the Mass Relays are designed for this exact occurence), and causes the relay to at least partly explode. We still don't know how much damage, because the camera shifts away mid-explosion. We are told that the mass relays will be non-functional, which is only true IF the godchild was telling the truth AND was 100% accurate as to the results (note that while the relays and the citadel were designed for this eventuality, it's never been tested)

Given that mass extinction would be contrary to the intent of the godchild and/or the original builders of the mass relay network, I think it's safe to say that the explosion did not cause that end result.

I don't think it goes against canon to say that the technological state of things will be better than most people are expecting... but of course we don't know, and we won't know until the Ending DLC comes out at the earliest.

Unfortunately, we have to go with what we've seen in the series. There is no evidence that what happened to the relays was any more controlled than what happened in Arrival. We have only seen one relay destroyed: it took out a solar system. Saying it won't this time is unfounded speculation.

More to the point, at the time Shepard is making the choice, he has no evidence it won't either. The f***ing reaperkid didn't exactly provide much.