644 réponses à ce sujet

[GothamLord]

Elyiia wrote...


Blowing up the relay is also genocide. The whole definition of genocide is:

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

Though I guess you could argue that 500,000 Batarians isn't a large enough number to qualify as part seeing as it's never been determined how much a "part" is.

My quote is a direct pull word for word from the dictionary so I dont know where there is a "whole" vs. "partial"  definition.  If you want define something quote where you are pulling it from.  Not really debating the use of the word against the Batarians, I was making a point to the person I responded to earlier that genocide does apply to what you do to the Geth.  

*http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide

Modifié par GothamLord, 13 avril 2012 - 06:21 .

[Elyiia]

www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=genocide&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=5cWHT-fOFaWfiAeT56jrCQ&ved=0CCsQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=59523be9930712fa&biw=1440&bih=835

GothamLord wrote...

Elyiia wrote...


Blowing up the relay is also genocide. The whole definition of genocide is:

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

Though I guess you could argue that 500,000 Batarians isn't a large enough number to qualify as part seeing as it's never been determined how much a "part" is.

My quote is a direct pull word for word from the dictionary so I dont know where there is a "whole" vs. "partial"  definition.  If you want define something quote where you are pulling it from.  Not really debating the use of the word against the Batarians, I was making a point to the person I responded to earlier that genocide does apply to what you do to the Geth.  

*http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide

I got it from "define: genocide" in google.
Link

It's supported by Balak claiming Shepard destroyed the culture of the Batarians.

[GothamLord]

You do know the link you gave doesnt come back with what you quoted right?  Just sayin'
"The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation"

Scrolling around I think I found what you cherry picked from Wikipedia.  I'll take a dictionary over a random users choice of wording.

As for Balak he's a angry terrorist. I would hardly take his word at much value. Secondaly a culture thats basically a bunch of thugs and war mongers probably need a major event like the Arrival DLC to get them thinking about readjusting their future.

Modifié par GothamLord, 13 avril 2012 - 06:38 .

[Elyiia]

GothamLord wrote...

You do know the link you gave doesnt come back with what you quoted right?  Just sayin'
"The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation"

Scrolling around I think I found what you cherry picked from Wikipedia.  I'll take a dictionary over a random users choice of wording.

As for Balak he's a angry terrorist. I would hardly take his word at much value. Secondaly a culture thats basically a bunch of thugs and war mongers probably need a major event like the Arrival DLC to get them thinking about readjusting their future.

Look at the dictionary result that's shown first. I'll admit that I used the wikipedia definition, but it's backed by the definition just above it.

Furthermore, Wikipedia is reliable when it cites it's sources.

[darthoptimus003]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Bioware condones genocide.

I don't believe this is a fair statement in the slightest and I think it is a counterproductive statement in terms of trying to create a dialogue.

That is all I will say on the matter.

wow people they airnt condoning anything
me on the other hand wouldnt mind killing every reaper in the galaxy
is that genocide techniclly yes but as i said earlyer the started it and its vengful justice

[EthanDirtch]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

vinyalonn wrote...

And also what about all the stuff that was revealed during the consensus? When it showed the geth were growing and evolving in ways that no one had predicted or intended.  What stood out to me the most was what Legion said regarding the quarians who died sacrifcing themselves trying to save and protect the geth. That:

"We have kept records of these creators' sacrifices. They have largely been forgotten by their own people. But not by the geth."

That was even before they achieved "true AI status". That plucked a major heart-string for me, for whatever reason. I can't view the geth as "just machines" personally.

You know, I bet that helped play a role with what motivated them to not chase down the Quarians after pushing them off of Rannoch.  I wonder if they would have done so if there hadn't been Quarians that empathized with the Geth.

Allan, I think the real question is: "Would they have rebelled if their protectors/advocates weren't getting killed?" From what I gathered it wasn't until that point that the Geth realized the violence not only against them but also against the Quarians that sympathized wasn't going to stop. 


As for the original post regarding "is it genocide, or sacrifice", why can't it be both? We can all agree that once a culture, a race, a species is snuffed out--no matter the reason--it is genocide. But at the same time, Shepard even at his/her most Renegade (which, as we all know, doesn't mean he/she is categorically evil, or sociopathic) isn't an emotionless machine (pardon the pun). There's no doubt that he/she sacrificed a part of him/herself, and probably felt that he/she 'needed to do what must be done'.

Of course, the fact that Shepard wasn't having nightmares about all the Batarians that died in 'Arrival' during ME3 while he/she was having nightmares about a child he/she barely knew kinda begs a different question about his/her mental state >_> I know I'd be having nightmares if I needed to allow a planet with millions of people on it to get destroyed, no matter the reason. But I digress!

[greggm2000]

EthanDirtch wrote...

Of course, the fact that Shepard wasn't having nightmares about all the Batarians that died in 'Arrival' during ME3 while he/she was having nightmares about a child he/she barely knew kinda begs a different question about his/her mental state >_> I know I'd be having nightmares if I needed to allow a planet with millions of people on it to get destroyed, no matter the reason. But I digress!

That's easy enough to explain. Regardless of what Shepard did, those Batarians were going to die within the hour anyway, no matter what. Shep couldn't stop that, and she knew it. She also knew that the reapers were driving the whole thing, if they weren't invading, those Batarians would remain alive, simple as that. So, makes sense that she wouldn't feel guilt there. She had no way of saving them, and she knew it.

The kid on the other hand, she had a chance to save, she could save him... but she didn't.

Makes sense to me.

[Cobra's_back]

greggm2000 wrote...

EthanDirtch wrote...

Of course, the fact that Shepard wasn't having nightmares about all the Batarians that died in 'Arrival' during ME3 while he/she was having nightmares about a child he/she barely knew kinda begs a different question about his/her mental state >_> I know I'd be having nightmares if I needed to allow a planet with millions of people on it to get destroyed, no matter the reason. But I digress!

That's easy enough to explain. Regardless of what Shepard did, those Batarians were going to die within the hour anyway, no matter what. Shep couldn't stop that, and she knew it. She also knew that the reapers were driving the whole thing, if they weren't invading, those Batarians would remain alive, simple as that. So, makes sense that she wouldn't feel guilt there. She had no way of saving them, and she knew it.

The kid on the other hand, she had a chance to save, she could save him... but she didn't.

Makes sense to me.

I played Arrival and sorry to say Shepard did kill 300,000 people. I pretty much expected BW was going to have some nasty choices in ME3.
 
Javik gives you a clue in one of his conversations. He said something like do you think you can come out of this war untarnished.
 
It could be that BW really wants to say that war can be ugly and it is.
 

[Zhuinden]

The Irish Man wrote...

 When the relays blew up it wasn't like the exposion from the arrival relay. The relays simply fell apart leaving all the races stranded in their own systems. During the destroy ending Shepard only kills all synthetics. The star child never said he would kill all life. The explosions from the individual relays most likely transported everyone to different places as seen with the Normandy. I'm pretty sure everyone didn't die because the alliance soldiers were stil on Earth after the blast.

When Shepard kills all synthetics can we call it a genocide or a sacrifice? I'm calling it a sacrifice because even though the Geth are a sentient form of mechanized life they are not organic. Shepard killing off the Batarians is a genocide but he did it as a sacrifice. I believe that Shepard in no way is committing genocide. Feel free to discuss. 

Wait, you're saying killing the geth, SENTIENT LIFEFORMS, is not genocide, because they are "not worth as much as organics", merely because they were created? Yet, they do have a soul?
Killing any sentient lifeform off to extinction is genocide, in this case, it's even worse.

[nitefyre410]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

greggm2000 wrote...

EthanDirtch wrote...

Of course, the fact that Shepard wasn't having nightmares about all the Batarians that died in 'Arrival' during ME3 while he/she was having nightmares about a child he/she barely knew kinda begs a different question about his/her mental state >_> I know I'd be having nightmares if I needed to allow a planet with millions of people on it to get destroyed, no matter the reason. But I digress!

That's easy enough to explain. Regardless of what Shepard did, those Batarians were going to die within the hour anyway, no matter what. Shep couldn't stop that, and she knew it. She also knew that the reapers were driving the whole thing, if they weren't invading, those Batarians would remain alive, simple as that. So, makes sense that she wouldn't feel guilt there. She had no way of saving them, and she knew it.

The kid on the other hand, she had a chance to save, she could save him... but she didn't.

Makes sense to me.

I played Arrival and sorry to say Shepard did kill 300,000 people. I pretty much expected BW was going to have some nasty choices in ME3.
 
Javik gives you a clue in one of his conversations. He said something like do you think you can come out of this war untarnished.
 
It could be that BW really wants to say that war can be ugly and it is.
 

   

Yeah they do a pretty poor job of doing that - Gundum does it better.. alot better.

[Cobra's_back]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But nothing is worth the genocide of the Geth. Nothing. If you can not protect the Greatest Newest Symbol of The Evolution and Magic of Emergent Life in your efforts to save the galaxy, you might as well just walk away. Life isn't a vague concept, you see it all around you in Mass Effect. You're fighting for what they all are.

And remember Mordin's lesson. He made a mistake.

But this is one mistake for which Shepard will never be able to atone.

Assuming the Geth would not be destroyed, is it still right to genocide the Reapers?

they started it so yeah give them what they gave to many races before
a whuppinlike they aint never had

I support destroy.

We are talking about survival. If you believe that the reapers can change fine let them live. ME1 and ME2 make them out to be evil. Remember the prior games.
 
They are described as having contempt for any lesser beings, seeing them as fleeting and temporary, whereas the Reapers are eternal. Sovereign reminded me of Sauron LOTR. You can’t control evil.
 
You can teach misinformed. I really don’t have any data supporting them as misinformed.

[greggm2000]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

greggm2000 wrote...

EthanDirtch wrote...

Of course, the fact that Shepard wasn't having nightmares about all the Batarians that died in 'Arrival' during ME3 while he/she was having nightmares about a child he/she barely knew kinda begs a different question about his/her mental state >_> I know I'd be having nightmares if I needed to allow a planet with millions of people on it to get destroyed, no matter the reason. But I digress!

That's easy enough to explain. Regardless of what Shepard did, those Batarians were going to die within the hour anyway, no matter what. Shep couldn't stop that, and she knew it. She also knew that the reapers were driving the whole thing, if they weren't invading, those Batarians would remain alive, simple as that. So, makes sense that she wouldn't feel guilt there. She had no way of saving them, and she knew it.

The kid on the other hand, she had a chance to save, she could save him... but she didn't.

Makes sense to me.

I played Arrival and sorry to say Shepard did kill 300,000 people. I pretty much expected BW was going to have some nasty choices in ME3.
 
Javik gives you a clue in one of his conversations. He said something like do you think you can come out of this war untarnished.
 
It could be that BW really wants to say that war can be ugly and it is.
 

Literally, yes, Shep did, you're right.. on the other hand, it's 300k people being killed instantly by Shep's hand, vs. 300k people being killed quickly (the lucky ones) or killed slowly by being captured in terror and liquified (the unlucky ones). One or the other was going to happen no matter what, and on the same day. If I was a Batarian and presented with that choice, I know what *I* would choose.... and something like that was probably in the back of Shep's mind, though of course she did what she had to do to stop the invasion, and probably would have made the same choice even if the decision wasn't so clear cut.

[Cobra's_back]

greggm2000 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

greggm2000 wrote...

EthanDirtch wrote...

Of course, the fact that Shepard wasn't having nightmares about all the Batarians that died in 'Arrival' during ME3 while he/she was having nightmares about a child he/she barely knew kinda begs a different question about his/her mental state >_> I know I'd be having nightmares if I needed to allow a planet with millions of people on it to get destroyed, no matter the reason. But I digress!

That's easy enough to explain. Regardless of what Shepard did, those Batarians were going to die within the hour anyway, no matter what. Shep couldn't stop that, and she knew it. She also knew that the reapers were driving the whole thing, if they weren't invading, those Batarians would remain alive, simple as that. So, makes sense that she wouldn't feel guilt there. She had no way of saving them, and she knew it.

The kid on the other hand, she had a chance to save, she could save him... but she didn't.

Makes sense to me.

I played Arrival and sorry to say Shepard did kill 300,000 people. I pretty much expected BW was going to have some nasty choices in ME3.
 
Javik gives you a clue in one of his conversations. He said something like do you think you can come out of this war untarnished.
 
It could be that BW really wants to say that war can be ugly and it is.
 

Literally, yes, Shep did, you're right.. on the other hand, it's 300k people being killed instantly by Shep's hand, vs. 300k people being killed quickly (the lucky ones) or killed slowly by being captured in terror and liquified (the unlucky ones). One or the other was going to happen no matter what, and on the same day. If I was a Batarian and presented with that choice, I know what *I* would choose.... and something like that was probably in the back of Shep's mind, though of course she did what she had to do to stop the invasion, and probably would have made the same choice even if the decision wasn't so clear cut.

I agree letting the reapers in would have been worst.

[mrpoultry]

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

If Legion was allowed to upload the reaper code( he said it himself they would be alive) then yes they were alive because they would be come a fully evolved AI capable of make their own descisions( also they did that anyway by choosing to build the Dyson sphere Legion Talked about in ME2).

Modifié par mrpoultry, 13 avril 2012 - 06:20 .

[Subject M]

Yes Shepard is always forced to commit genocide in one way or another, if its not already doomed Batarians, its the synthetics (Geth or Reapers). It sucks of course. Support a genocide free ending alternative.

[Subject M]

mrpoultry wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

If Legion was allowed to upload the reaper code( he said it himself they would be alive) then yes they were alive because they would be come a fully evolved AI capable of make their own descisions( also they did that anyway by choosing to build the Dyson sphere Legion Talked about in ME2).

They already were a fully evolved AI (the geth), its just that the upgrade made every single geth an AI.

[DiE231]

Why do you guys are still trying to explain an ending that can't be explained?


BW crapped on their entire lore and just thrown a lot of random shlt at us and hoped for the best, that is the only truth there is about the ending.

Modifié par DiE231, 13 avril 2012 - 06:36 .

[greggm2000]

DiE231 wrote...

Why do you guys are still trying to explain an ending that can't be explained?


BW crapped on their entire lore and just thrown a lot of random shlt at us and hoped for the best, that is the only truth there is about the ending.

But.... but..... but...  if we don't do this, then we'd have to actually do something productive elsewhere!  fie on that sir.. fie!

[mrpoultry]

Subject M wrote...

mrpoultry wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

If Legion was allowed to upload the reaper code( he said it himself they would be alive) then yes they were alive because they would be come a fully evolved AI capable of make their own descisions( also they did that anyway by choosing to build the Dyson sphere Legion Talked about in ME2).

They already were a fully evolved AI (the geth), its just that the upgrade made every single geth an AI.

They were networked AI before Legion uploaded the reaper code, when he did then they all become fully evolved and alive.

[darthoptimus003]

i really would have loved the complete and uter destruction of the entire reaper race
yeah i would have loved that ALOT