644 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

shepard1038 wrote...

Killing synthetics is not genocide. Killing organics is genocide. wheter you think that killing synthetics is good or
wrong thats up to another debate. Also the Geth and Edi were prepared to die to destroy the reapers.

Merely stating something as fact does not make it so. I have the origin of the word on my side. You have brought up a soul argument with an unprovable premise (that organics have souls and synthetics don't) on your side. I have a feeling that you tend to view synthetics as somewhere beneath or equal to dogs, and how could killing all terriers be genocide, right?

[Reth Shepherd]

I don't know how one would define "soul", but I believe that if any character in the ME universe has one, it is Legion. He sacrifices himself, "I must go to them", and some part of him lives on forever in his people.

Anyway, souls or no souls, the Geth are a self-aware people, capable of rational thought, of making their own decisions, and learning from their mistakes. They have made judgements as to right and wrong, and have made decisions about what they are willing to do in order to survive. Based off of this, they deserve the same rights and freedoms as any other sentient race in the Mass Effect universe, and killing their entire race would indeed be genocide. What does it matter if they are made of metal and silicon rather than protein?

[SPR000X]

Killa rican wrote...

Again. If EDI Can fall in love. Why cant Upgraded Reaper Geth As individuals?

Im not even sure EDI felt love.

It was just Jokers inside nerd who was getting a boner. EDI only stated that it was interesting to be with Joker afaik.

[The Irish Man]

Killa rican wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

zenoxis wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 When the relays blew up it wasn't like the exposion from the arrival relay. The relays simply fell apart leaving all the races stranded in their own systems. During the destroy ending Shepard only kills all synthetics. The star child never said he would kill all life. The explosions from the individual relays most likely transported everyone to different places as seen with the Normandy. I'm pretty sure everyone didn't die because the alliance soldiers were stil on Earth after the blast.

Lol killing all synthetics IS Genocide. Curiously enough, it's the only ending where Shepard has a chance of living.

Killing synthetics is not genocide. Killing organics is genocide. wheter you think that killing synthetics is good or
wrong thats up to another debate. Also the Geth and Edi were prepared to die to destroy the reapers.

Nothing more then indifference . All creatures, all "life" has a right to live and exist. The human race has a strong disregard for the life of insects and animals imagine for synthetics one day. If the philosophy of materialism is true, then it holds high potential for AI to become a reality one day, functioning like we would, since technially we are biological "machines".

How are we considered biological machines? Is it because we eat, sleep, do whatever we do everyday and we've been doing the same thing throught time?

[Zine2]

There is only one necessary response to the "Synthetics are not people!" argument:

Yes, they do have a soul.

[CronoDragoon]

The Irish Man wrote...

I am a firm believer that I have a soul because of my religion and what I have been taught. All human beings have emotions and feelings that can be expressed throughout daily life. I cannot prove that I have a soul but I can believe in it. My main question was "Who said Shepard committed genocide"? I believe that the geth are a sentient group yet they cannot express the same feelings that humans have like loving one another and so on. I believe that Shepard killing off the geth with all other synthetics is not genocide due to the fact that they were created by the quarians and that they cannot live like human beings. This is my main point and I believe this because I have been taught that "organics" have souls. I know we can't prove that we have souls. I will support your opinion either way. 

Here is the thing: the geth did not truly become individuals until Legion upgraded them with Reaper code, and after that we don't interact with them again. But if the geth had lived and were shown centuries later, I'm willing to bet they'd seem a lot more human-like. EDI developed human emotions, after all, and that's just from interaction with humans.

What is it about being created by quarians that precludes genocide?

[shepard1038]

Killa rican wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

zenoxis wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 When the relays blew up it wasn't like the exposion from the arrival relay. The relays simply fell apart leaving all the races stranded in their own systems. During the destroy ending Shepard only kills all synthetics. The star child never said he would kill all life. The explosions from the individual relays most likely transported everyone to different places as seen with the Normandy. I'm pretty sure everyone didn't die because the alliance soldiers were stil on Earth after the blast.

Lol killing all synthetics IS Genocide. Curiously enough, it's the only ending where Shepard has a chance of living.

Killing synthetics is not genocide. Killing organics is genocide. wheter you think that killing synthetics is good or
wrong thats up to another debate. Also the Geth and Edi were prepared to die to destroy the reapers.

Nothing more then indifference . All creatures, all "life" has a right to live and exist. The human race has a strong disregard for the life of insects and animals imagine for synthetics one day. If the philosophy of materialism is true, then it holds high potential for AI to become a reality one day, functioning like we would, since technially we are biological "machines".

We are not biological machines. Yes all life has a right to exist but you can hold the Geth the same as and
organic. The geth first were a machine race then they became sentient, but organics are people's the day they are born. Being sentient is not the same as being a people.

Modifié par shepard1038, 11 avril 2012 - 05:26 .

[iSpider-Man]

Icinix wrote...

Green = Cultural Genocide
Red = Synthetic Genocide
Blue = Eventual total galactic Genocide again anyway.

most straightfoward answer here. also he destroyed the entire batarian race by his actions in arrival which was caused by a mass relay explosion.

[Nobrandminda]

The Irish Man wrote...

I am a firm believer that I have a soul because of my religion and what I have been taught. All human beings have emotions and feelings that can be expressed throughout daily life. I cannot prove that I have a soul but I can believe in it. My main question was "Who said Shepard committed genocide"? I believe that the geth are a sentient group yet they cannot express the same feelings that humans have like loving one another and so on. I believe that Shepard killing off the geth with all other synthetics is not genocide due to the fact that they were created by the quarians and that they cannot live like human beings. This is my main point and I believe this because I have been taught that "organics" have souls. I know we can't prove that we have souls. I will support your opinion either way. 

Oh, yes they can.  You just weren't paying attention.

[The Irish Man]

CronoDragoon wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

Killing synthetics is not genocide. Killing organics is genocide. wheter you think that killing synthetics is good or
wrong thats up to another debate. Also the Geth and Edi were prepared to die to destroy the reapers.

Merely stating something as fact does not make it so. I have the origin of the word on my side. You have brought up a soul argument with an unprovable premise (that organics have souls and synthetics don't) on your side. I have a feeling that you tend to view synthetics as somewhere beneath or equal to dogs, and how could killing all terriers be genocide, right?

You can't assume what an individual views. Key word is Synth meaning mechanized. Machines can't love or show emotion. You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you? She just talks in that same tone throughout both games.

[CronoDragoon]

The Irish Man wrote...

How are we considered biological machines? Is it because we eat, sleep, do whatever we do everyday and we've been doing the same thing throught time?

The belief is that everything boils down to chemicals firing/mixing/interacting/reacting, etc. You believe the soul is responsible for what others believe the interaction of chemicals is responsible for, and so this line of debate isn't really going to go anywhere.

[Zine2]

shepard1038 wrote...

We are not biological machines.

Yes we are. We are a chemical process.

Modifié par Zine2, 11 avril 2012 - 05:29 .

[The Irish Man]

iSpider-Man wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Green = Cultural Genocide
Red = Synthetic Genocide
Blue = Eventual total galactic Genocide again anyway.

most straightfoward answer here. also he destroyed the entire batarian race by his actions in arrival which was caused by a mass relay explosion.

Now that is genocide. He didn't want it to happen but it did. He sacrificed nearly the whole batarian race.

[Big I]

The Irish Man wrote...
I believe that Shepard killing off the geth with all other synthetics is not genocide due to the fact that they were created by the quarians and that they cannot live like human beings.

The asari, as they exist now, are a product of prothean genetic and social engineering; they gave them biotics, agriculture, and mathematics. So are the hanar, to whom they gave language, and the rachni, who they bred for ferocity and intelligence. None of these three species can live like human beings - especially rachni, who are a species with a hive mentality.


It doesn't matter if intelligent life is created or not. If it's intelligent, killing it is murder, and killing all of them is genocide.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 11 avril 2012 - 05:30 .

[CronoDragoon]

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

[The Irish Man]

Zine2 wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

We are not biological machines.

Yes we are. We are a chemical process.

Our life isn't a chemical process. Our bodies have chemical functions that carry out the same duties everyday. 

[ArmaVirumqueCano]

Genocide according to the fiction of the ME universe, where machines have "souls"?

Okay, accepted.

Genocide in reality?

Ridiculous.

And that's where the Hitler comparison goes too far.

I truly think a lot of people in this debate just need to identify their base assumption -- are we in the ME universe, or in the real world? Because in the real world, pure synthetics are vacuum cleaners and microwaves, and THAT ain't genocide...

But, man, some people here are either WAY too involved in the ME universe or just deluded into thinking that "synthetics" is a race/genus like humans or other "organics." It's funny to read the PC righteous indignation in support of "the synthetic race." Can't tell who's serious...

It's a GAME, people. Not reality. And genocide's too heavy a concept to throw around with only a tenuous connection to actual reality.

[Tom Lehrer]

Why cant a computer be a person? The Human brain is a computer so if we are people why can't another kind of computer be a person?

To clearify why cant a self aware computer be a person?

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 11 avril 2012 - 05:34 .

[shepard1038]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

She is run by a processing unit. Also it is possible for a machine to show emotion. Just because a machine can
show emotion doesn't mean that it is a people it only has the characteristics of a normal person.

Modifié par shepard1038, 11 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[Big I]

The Irish Man wrote...
You can't assume what an individual views. Key word is Synth meaning mechanized. Machines can't love or show emotion. You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you? She just talks in that same tone throughout both games.

Legion expresses shame in the Rannoch missions. EDI expresses disgust with the Reapers, anger with Javik, starts a relationship with Joker, and feels so strongly about him she's willing to die to protect him.

[The Irish Man]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

That's what she was programed to do. To protect and serve the Normandy and its crew. Jokes can be also programed into an AI. Pretty much anything can be programed into a machine that has the capability. 

[Peete]

I am targetting this thread from another direction:

The Irish Man wrote...

 When the relays blew up it wasn't like the exposion from the arrival relay. The relays simply fell apart leaving all the races stranded in their own systems.

Where do you get this? Remember the star map at the end? You could SEE the explosions. That means they are immense. Fully capable of wiping out whole star systems.

And even if you're right and they don't all blow up destroying the Galaxies currently only viable way of transport also leads to mass genocide. What would happen if suddenly all acces to New York was cut off? It would starve, that's what! All the mining worlds around the galaxy are doomed. As are immense metropolises and places like Omega who desperatly need to import food or die.

Either way Shepard commited genocide.

[CronoDragoon]

ArmaVirumqueCano wrote...

Genocide according to the fiction of the ME universe, where machines have "souls"?

Okay, accepted.

Since we are talking about the ME universe, then that is all you had to say. The rest is an exercise in misunderstanding the purpose of literary analysis and/or a general dislike of philosophy.

[Tom Lehrer]

shepard1038 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

She is run by a processing unit.

So are we, only it is soft and in our skull.

[The Irish Man]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...
You can't assume what an individual views. Key word is Synth meaning mechanized. Machines can't love or show emotion. You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you? She just talks in that same tone throughout both games.

Legion expresses shame in the Rannoch missions. EDI expresses disgust with the Reapers, anger with Javik, starts a relationship with Joker, and feels so strongly about him she's willing to die to protect him.

Emotion can be programmed into a machine that has the capability to carry it out with an act. Consider it a revised statement. It is still classified as a machine.