644 réponses à ce sujet

[M0keys]

I suppose you could state, "But those are just complex simulations of emotion!"

Guess you gotta ask if a seemingly perfect simulation of emotion isn't worthy of empathy, what's the value of human emotion itself? It's not like a soul gives you your emotions. There are entirely neutral, dead simple chemical reactions that give rise to human emotion. When you consider DNA to be very close to computer code, you begin to see how similar vast swaths of our structures begin to look, and perhaps then wonder about the nature of it all.

In a sense, there's nothing more human than a human robot because it gives us a chance to look at ourselves from a distance.

[Big I]

ArmaVirumqueCano wrote...
I truly think a lot of people in this debate just need to identify their base assumption -- are we in the ME universe, or in the real world? Because in the real world, pure synthetics are vacuum cleaners and microwaves, and THAT ain't genocide...

Destroying a non-intelligent machine isn't murder. Killing a self aware machine would be.


To use an example from other fiction, Planet of the Apes. Killing a monkey? Not murder. Killing an intelligent ape? Murder.

[DirectorStormchaser1]

Do you know that since we use the computer on a daily basis.... Guess what part of your soul is in that computer. Part of your soul is in the Cell Phone. Why many call computers and cell phones the Devil's Works, Satan made it. I have seen churches call iPhone; iSatan, iDevil, iSeeYouinHell, iBurninHell, and my favorite the iBrimstone.

I am going to say this... How many remember Avina the Virtual Guide? The best quote of all!!! The embassies allow lesser species to have a voice on The Citadel.

With that in mind. Shepard did commit Genocide.

[shepard1038]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

She is run by a processing unit.

So are we, only it is soft and in our skull.

Do you see yourself as a unit like the Geth?

[Nobrandminda]

The Irish Man wrote...

You can't assume what an individual views. Key word is Synth meaning mechanized. Machines can't love or show emotion. You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you? She just talks in that same tone throughout both games.

Have you seen what happens if you destroy the Geth on Rannoch?  She gets pretty damn emotional.

If you can watch this scene and tell me that Legion doesn't show any emotions, YOU have no soul. 
 

[shepard1038]

Also Machines don't have Morals. Only when you upload the code they show morale.

Modifié par shepard1038, 11 avril 2012 - 05:40 .

[The Irish Man]

Peete wrote...


I am targetting this thread from another direction:

The Irish Man wrote...

 When the relays blew up it wasn't like the exposion from the arrival relay. The relays simply fell apart leaving all the races stranded in their own systems.

Where do you get this? Remember the star map at the end? You could SEE the explosions. That means they are immense. Fully capable of wiping out whole star systems.

And even if you're right and they don't all blow up destroying the Galaxies currently only viable way of transport also leads to mass genocide. What would happen if suddenly all acces to New York was cut off? It would starve, that's what! All the mining worlds around the galaxy are doomed. As are immense metropolises and places like Omega who desperatly need to import food or die.

Either way Shepard commited genocide.

If you remember the star map during the arrival it shows a much bigger explosion and you see the system getting obliterated. The blast that destroys the reapers goes through each system and wipes out the reapers. The star map doesn't show two blasts, only one. 

[CronoDragoon]

The Irish Man wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

That's what she was programed to do. To protect and serve the Normandy and its crew. Jokes can be also programed into an AI. Pretty much anything can be programed into a machine that has the capability. 

Pretty much anything can be programmed into a human, too. It's called brainwashing. In any case, if you argue that it's just "what she was programmed to do" then it should interest you that EDI later rejects her original purpose. I mean, Shepard and EDI have an entire conversation about this. EDI was also programmed by Cerberus, do you think it was in her programming that she turn against them? Do you think someone programmed jokes into her about killing people/cutting off their oxygen?

In any case, you and shepard14141's argument is still going to come back to only one thing: religious belief. So unless you have a different argument then this thread seems spent, since religious faith by definition cannot be proven.

[Big I]

The Irish Man wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Legion expresses shame in the Rannoch missions. EDI expresses disgust with the Reapers, anger with Javik, starts a relationship with Joker, and feels so strongly about him she's willing to die to protect him.

Emotion can be programmed into a machine that has the capability to carry it out with an act. Consider it a revised statement. It is still classified as a machine.

This is explicitly not the case with Legion and EDI. Legion became an individual after it's creation. EDI's creator, the Illusive Man, explicitly did not treat EDI like or intend her to be a person. She developed emotions anyway.


If a machine is self aware it is alive.

[The Irish Man]

Nobrandminda wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

You can't assume what an individual views. Key word is Synth meaning mechanized. Machines can't love or show emotion. You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you? She just talks in that same tone throughout both games.

Have you seen what happens if you destroy the Geth on Rannoch?  She gets pretty damn emotional.

If you can watch this scene and tell me that Legion doesn't show any emotions, YOU have no soul. 
 

Emotion can be programmed into a machine.

[Lord Jaric]

I'm just going to throw this qoute in.

"There have always been ghosts in the machine. Random segments of code, that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. Unanticipated, these free radicals engender questions of free will, creativity, and even the nature of what we might call the soul. Why is it that when some robots are left in darkness, they will seek out the light? Why is it that when robots are stored in an empty space, they will group together, rather than stand alone? How do we explain this behavior? Random segments of code? Or is it something more? When does a perceptual schematic become consciousness? When does a difference engine become the search for truth? When does a personality simulation become the bitter mote... of a soul?"

Modifié par Lord Jaric, 11 avril 2012 - 05:41 .

[Killa rican]

Can of worms in the metaphysical department had to be opened didnt it. It was almost inevitable.

[M0keys]

The Irish Man wrote...

Nobrandminda wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

You can't assume what an individual views. Key word is Synth meaning mechanized. Machines can't love or show emotion. You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you? She just talks in that same tone throughout both games.

Have you seen what happens if you destroy the Geth on Rannoch?  She gets pretty damn emotional.

If you can watch this scene and tell me that Legion doesn't show any emotions, YOU have no soul. 
 

Emotion can be programmed into a machine.

And emotion can be programmed out of a man.

[Big I]

shepard1038 wrote...
Also Machines don't have Morals. Only when you upload the code they show morale.

Not the case in ME. The geth spared the quarians because they didn't want to wipe them out. You can, through dialogue, convince EDI to devote herself to duty, altruism, and free will.

[shepard1038]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

That's what she was programed to do. To protect and serve the Normandy and its crew. Jokes can be also programed into an AI. Pretty much anything can be programed into a machine that has the capability. 

Pretty much anything can be programmed into a human, too. It's called brainwashing. In any case, if you argue that it's just "what she was programmed to do" then it should interest you that EDI later rejects her original purpose. I mean, Shepard and EDI have an entire conversation about this. EDI was also programmed by Cerberus, do you think it was in her programming that she turn against them? Do you think someone programmed jokes into her about killing people/cutting off their oxygen?

In any case, you and shepard14141's argument is still going to come back to only one thing: religious belief. So unless you have a different argument then this thread seems spent, since religious faith by definition cannot be proven.

Its Shepard1038 and I haven't bring religious belief to the table.

[shepard1038]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...
Also Machines don't have Morals. Only when you upload the code they show morale.

Not the case in ME. The geth spared the quarians because they didn't want to wipe them out. You can, through dialogue, convince EDI to devote herself to duty, altruism, and free will.

Well they didn't have Morals when they were killing the Quarians.

[Tom Lehrer]

shepard1038 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

So are we, only it is soft and in our skull.

Do you see yourself as a unit like the Geth?

At a very basic level I do. The brain and whole human body is a machine.

[The Irish Man]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

That's what she was programed to do. To protect and serve the Normandy and its crew. Jokes can be also programed into an AI. Pretty much anything can be programed into a machine that has the capability. 

Pretty much anything can be programmed into a human, too. It's called brainwashing. In any case, if you argue that it's just "what she was programmed to do" then it should interest you that EDI later rejects her original purpose. I mean, Shepard and EDI have an entire conversation about this. EDI was also programmed by Cerberus, do you think it was in her programming that she turn against them? Do you think someone programmed jokes into her about killing people/cutting off their oxygen?

In any case, you and shepard14141's argument is still going to come back to only one thing: religious belief. So unless you have a different argument then this thread seems spent, since religious faith by definition cannot be proven.

Your exactly right however EDI's advancements in AI tech have allowed her to rebel. Plus this argument is spent like you said and entirely pointless now. In my main question I was confused on whether the relays destroyed whole systems resulting and genocide or just severed transport. And In my opinion killing the Geth isn't genocide because they are synthetics. 

[acidic-ph0]

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_VGuf7OpzE

Here's this exact debate in the actual game. Personally I agreed with Adams. Whether or not we are organic means nothing... Our self awareness, curiosity, and capacity to evolve is what makes us alive. Or any creature, synthetic or organic, alive. The Geth fit all of these properties and even if you sided with Chakwas in this conversation, the Geth do not "emulate" life. You can't emulate curiosity or self-awareness.

Keep metaphysics out of this. 

Destroying the Geth is a form of genocide.

Modifié par acidic-ph0, 11 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[MaximusRex]

The Geth are people, just because they are different then we are doesn't make them any less so.



I find it disturbing how easily even now, even after slavery and attempted genocides over time that so many people are willing to discount anyone different as not counting. How many times in our history have people so much like us been discounted as not counting? I guess its even easier when they are even more different.



Legion, the answer to your question was "Yes".

[Big I]

shepard1038 wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...
Also Machines don't have Morals. Only when you upload the code they show morale.

Not the case in ME. The geth spared the quarians because they didn't want to wipe them out. You can, through dialogue, convince EDI to devote herself to duty, altruism, and free will.

Well they didn't have Morals when they were killing the Quarians.

Yes they did, they had the WRONG morals. They valued their lives over the lives of the quarians, and concluded the only way to survive was defeat them.

[Elyiia]

shepard1038 wrote...

Also Machines don't have Morals. Only when you upload the code they show morale.

Morals are simply a set of codes for situations.

[Zine2]

The Irish Man wrote...

Our life isn't a chemical process. Our bodies have chemical functions that carry out the same duties everyday. 

Yes it is. Stop lying because you are being reminded of your mortality and you run screaming to your intolerant and prejudiced "God".

We are a chemical process and nothing more. Your brain works because of electric impulses generated by these chemical processes. These electric impulses in your brain is the basic function that gives you consciousness and sentience. It is no different from a highly sophisticated CPU.

And when that process stops - when you die - the sentience and consciousness goes away. No different from a computer having its switched turned off. There is no special "soul" that endures after the chemical process is switched off, no matter how hard you close your eyes and ignore it.

This is the simple, awful reality of the universe. We are not meant to be here forever. Our consciousness and sentience are precious, fleeting things.

That is why any sane sentient race will not seek to destroy other sentient races. Life is precious, no matter its format.

That is why any sane sentient race will not make 50 excuses to justify genocide. "They don't really feel!" "They're not made of protein!" "They're colored black!" "They're Jews". It's just promoting intolerance and it deserves every comparisons to real world genocide.

In short, all you're doing is to condone genocide on religious grounds. Comparing you to Hitler, the Crusades, and every act of mass murder due to intolerance is perfectly acceptable and justified. It belongs on the same trash heap as "Gays are evil because my religion says so!"

Modifié par Zine2, 11 avril 2012 - 05:49 .

[The Irish Man]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...
Also Machines don't have Morals. Only when you upload the code they show morale.

Not the case in ME. The geth spared the quarians because they didn't want to wipe them out. You can, through dialogue, convince EDI to devote herself to duty, altruism, and free will.

Shepard unites the quarian and Geth resulting in spared quarian. You're right.

[M0keys]

Zine2 wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

Our life isn't a chemical process. Our bodies have chemical functions that carry out the same duties everyday. 

Yes it is. Stop lying because you are being reminded of your mortality and you run screaming to your intolerant and prejudiced "God".

...

In short, all you're doing is to condone genocide on religious grounds. Comparing you to Hitler, the Crusades, and every act of mass murder due to intolerance is perfectly acceptable and justified.

Seriously not cool attitude on these forums, dude.