644 réponses à ce sujet

[eddieoctane]

The Irish Man wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

Small minded answer.  They are fully sentient and sapient, capable of having subjective experiences and acting with judgement. Legion's refernce to itself as "I", thanking Tali, and choosing "Keelah se'lai" as his last words in an attempt to comfort her were all meant to convey this. These are the characteristics generally considered to be the requirements of intelligent life, what seperates us from lemurs, krogan from varen, you get where this is going. Legion says this ability will be transfered to all geth runtimes if you allow it. Total destruction of the geth--an intelligent, independent race of being-- is genocide. Unless you wouldn't consider wiping out every last salarian genocide. Wait, your right. It's not genocide, it's the extinction of an entire intelligent species. Far worse. This is when the UN would go from capital to corporal punishment.

Your forgetting the soul and feelings part. Sythetics don't have those, only organics do.

Feelings are subjective. In fact, experiencing feelings is part of the definition of subjective experience. And since that is a criteria for intelligence, it means all intelligent beings can have feelings. It's kind of an A=B & B=C so A=C senario. The geth can have feelings.

As far as souls, that really depends on how you define the word. Does your dog go to Heaven? If so, what actually goes to Heaven? More than a few people are going to have words with their creator if they don't get to see their childhood companion in the afterlife. If dogs, why not a being that is in almost every other way our equal? And who's to say God, or Brahman, or Amaterasu couldn't grant the geth a soul the second they became our equals?

If a true artificial intelligence were ever created on Earth, you can bet the Pope, the Dalai Lama, and the heads of every other religious group are going to have a lot to consider. That much is certain.

[Elyiia]

The Irish Man wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...
Also Machines don't have Morals. Only when you upload the code they show morale.

Not the case in ME. The geth spared the quarians because they didn't want to wipe them out. You can, through dialogue, convince EDI to devote herself to duty, altruism, and free will.

Shepard unites the quarian and Geth resulting in spared quarian. You're right.

He's talking about the Morning War, where the Geth had the option to wipe out the Quarians completely but their "morals" stopped them.

[CronoDragoon]

The Irish Man wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...
Also Machines don't have Morals. Only when you upload the code they show morale.

Not the case in ME. The geth spared the quarians because they didn't want to wipe them out. You can, through dialogue, convince EDI to devote herself to duty, altruism, and free will.

Shepard unites the quarian and Geth resulting in spared quarian. You're right.

LookingGlass is talking about the Morning War. Originally when the geth rebelled and drove the quarians out, they had a chance to kill the rest of them. They decided to let the quarians leave.

[Riion]

@ People relying on the "Oh, it's just their code, their advanced AI tech, etc.": When do organics cross the barrier between person and non- person? Is it at a certain level of mental development? When those neuron pathways form at a certain level of complexity? What is the human mind, really? A lump of organic matter capable of transferring electrical and chemical signals. Seems pretty similar to a machine, really. At a certain point, why would you discriminate between whether someone is carbon or silicon based?

[The Irish Man]

Zine2 wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

Our life isn't a chemical process. Our bodies have chemical functions that carry out the same duties everyday. 

Yes it is. Stop lying because you are being reminded of your mortality and you run screaming to your intolerant and prejudiced "God".

We are a chemical process and nothing more. Your brain works because of electric impulses generated by these chemical processes. These electric impulses in your brain is the basic function that gives you consciousness and sentience. It is no different from a highly sophisticated CPU.

And when that process stops - when you die - the sentience and consciousness goes away. No different from a computer having its switched turned off. There is no special "soul" that endures after the chemical process is switched off, no matter how hard you close your eyes and ignore it.

This is the simple, awful reality of the universe. We are not meant to be here forever. Our consciousness and sentience are precious, fleeting things.

That is why any sane sentient race will not seek to destroy other sentient races. Life is precious, no matter its format.

That is why any sane sentient race will not make 50 excuses to justify genocide. "They don't really feel!" "They're not made of protein!" "They're colored black!" "They're Jews". It's just promoting intolerance and it deserves every comparisons to real world genocide.

In short, all you're doing is to condone genocide on religious grounds. Comparing you to Hitler, the Crusades, and every act of mass murder due to intolerance is perfectly acceptable and justified.

Your right, life is very precious no matter what form but you're missing my main point. Please don't compare me to hitler because this topic has nothing to do with my religion or what you believe in.

[TerraNomad]

the key word is sentient. Not Organic or Synthetic. It's pretty much cannon in the Mass Effect story that the Geth are a sentient lifeform and therefore it does constitute genocide. That being said, this arguement is pointless. Given the stakes (the entire galaxy), the loss of a single race to secure the end to the war seems like an acceptable loss. I'm horrified to say it but when the stakes are that All life dies, or sacrificing many lives to end it. Well the choice is quite clear.

It is genocide, but you can't think of it as genocide, not in the connotations that word has.

[The Irish Man]

The main point is being over looked.

Modifié par The Irish Man, 11 avril 2012 - 05:54 .

[Burnham1]

You can commit genocide against cultures without killing a single person. All you have to do is assimilate everyone from one culture into another one until that culture is no longer practiced by anyone. Cultural genocide was just committed and the only thing that died was an idea. Sentient beings don't even have to die for genocide to occur. So killing off all Geth is genocide.

[archanesoldier]

The Irish Man wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

That's what she was programed to do. To protect and serve the Normandy and its crew. Jokes can be also programed into an AI. Pretty much anything can be programed into a machine that has the capability. 

You said earlier that you believe you had a soul becuase your religon taught you that you had one, so by this logic weren't you programmed to think that you have a soul, just like you are saying that a machine can be programmed to think anything.

Note: This is not an attack on you or your religon I am just pointing out a flaw in your logic.

[Riion]

The Irish Man wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

Our life isn't a chemical process. Our bodies have chemical functions that carry out the same duties everyday. 

Yes it is. Stop lying because you are being reminded of your mortality and you run screaming to your intolerant and prejudiced "God".

We are a chemical process and nothing more. Your brain works because of electric impulses generated by these chemical processes. These electric impulses in your brain is the basic function that gives you consciousness and sentience. It is no different from a highly sophisticated CPU.

And when that process stops - when you die - the sentience and consciousness goes away. No different from a computer having its switched turned off. There is no special "soul" that endures after the chemical process is switched off, no matter how hard you close your eyes and ignore it.

This is the simple, awful reality of the universe. We are not meant to be here forever. Our consciousness and sentience are precious, fleeting things.

That is why any sane sentient race will not seek to destroy other sentient races. Life is precious, no matter its format.

That is why any sane sentient race will not make 50 excuses to justify genocide. "They don't really feel!" "They're not made of protein!" "They're colored black!" "They're Jews". It's just promoting intolerance and it deserves every comparisons to real world genocide.

In short, all you're doing is to condone genocide on religious grounds. Comparing you to Hitler, the Crusades, and every act of mass murder due to intolerance is perfectly acceptable and justified.

Your right, life is very precious no matter what form but you're missing my main point. Please don't compare me to hitler because this topic has nothing to do with my religion or what you believe in.

Synthetic life. /argument

[shepard1038]

You can't say that Shepard commited genocide because he didn't have the intent to kill the Geth.
And the Geth and Edi and all the races were prepared to die to stop the reapers.

[acidic-ph0]

Here's a scenario posted on the Cerberus daily news a long time ago:

"The scientific community is abuzz today after the latest report from MIT exo-biologist Jordan Detweiler was filed last night from the Antilin System, where he’s currently investigating a mysterious “ghost ship.” Claiming a breakthrough, Detweiler writes, “What I’ve discovered is nothing short of astonishing: This so-called derelict ship isn’t derelict at all. It appears that an alien race has downloaded its consciousness to a massive array of quantum computers onboard the vessel. It’s my belief these aliens now reside entirely in a virtual world and have been there for at least 8,000 years.” Detweiler estimates the population of the virtual world numbers close to one billion individuals. He explains: “The ship’s AI is something of a caretaker to these people, or even a god depending on how you look at it. More importantly, the AI is now requesting our help. It says a power failure is imminent and threatens the entire virtual civilization.”

___________________

So if an alien species evacuates it's planet by transferring individual consciousnesses into a virtual world, is this species still alive? I'd say absolutely! They don't have bodies sure, but what is a mind? It's a series of electrical impulses and chemical reactions. Our consciousness is only a matter of energy and chemistry. That's it!

You can read the rest of the story here -->

http://www.cerberusd...st-ship&paged=2

Modifié par acidic-ph0, 11 avril 2012 - 05:57 .

[AnImpossibleGirl]

Elyiia wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

Yeah, that's pretty much what Hitler said.
Synthetics are people, deal with it.

Hitler liked to call it eugenics. Also was not destroying machines. Those were organics. Geth were built. Like my computer I am sitting in front of and...I liked Legion too, doesn't make it harder on me to decide to eliminate them to rid the galaxy of Reapers. Because they are not people...

http://dictionary.re...m/browse/people

Modifié par Poshible, 11 avril 2012 - 05:56 .

[shepard1038]

archanesoldier wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

That's what she was programed to do. To protect and serve the Normandy and its crew. Jokes can be also programed into an AI. Pretty much anything can be programed into a machine that has the capability. 

You said earlier that you believe you had a soul becuase your religon taught you that you had one, so by this logic weren't you programmed to think that you have a soul, just like you are saying that a machine can be programmed to think anything.

Note: This is not an attack on you or your religon I am just pointing out a flaw in your logic.

You shouldn't touch that subject. You could offend people.

[Zine2]

M0keys wrote...
Seriously not cool attitude on these forums, dude.

Some truths need to be said, with the maximum level of clarity and fortrightness with no regard for petty "feelings".

Intolerance springs from declarations that one set of people are superior to one set of people based on arbitrary grounds. "We have a soul but they don't". That is how intolerance, racism, and genocide starts.

And when someone makes outright lies to support this argument, don't expect stupid platitudes or "I agree to disagree". We are chemical processes. We are biological machines. There is no "Buts!" about it. So any argument that we are somehow entitled to sentience and personhood - but machines are not - because Irish Man has "God" (in reality, delusional voices in his head) telling him so does not make it true in any sense of the word.

There are truths, and there are falsehoods. The idea that a machine cannot be a person is a lie.

[Elyiia]

shepard1038 wrote...

You can't say that Shepard commited genocide because he didn't have the intent to kill the Geth.
And the Geth and Edi and all the races were prepared to die to stop the reapers.

He was told he would kill the Geth if he choose destroy along with the Reapers. It might have been a necessary evil but it's still genocide.

[Sajuro]

Elyiia wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Except the geth aren't true people.

Jewish people don't lose their sentience when they're separated from one another.

Neither do Geth with Reaper upgrades. With the upgrades they become individuals.

There not people they don't have a soul, they don't have a brain, they don't have heart.

The game disagrees with you.

Wait, was hitler trying to stop the Reapers? No? Did the Jewish people say they were willing to stop the Reapers? No? Well it ain't the same thing.

[The Irish Man]

archanesoldier wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

 You don't see EDI showing emotion now do you?

Yeah, I do. Her verbal tone doesn't indicate emotion, just like it doesn't for mute people. But she makes jokes and feels a strong need to protect the Normandy and her crew. Those things indicate emotions.

That's what she was programed to do. To protect and serve the Normandy and its crew. Jokes can be also programed into an AI. Pretty much anything can be programed into a machine that has the capability. 

You said earlier that you believe you had a soul becuase your religon taught you that you had one, so by this logic weren't you programmed to think that you have a soul, just like you are saying that a machine can be programmed to think anything.

Note: This is not an attack on you or your religon I am just pointing out a flaw in your logic.

That was a statement on what I beleive not my logic. I would prefer to use the term taught instead of programmed but you are right. I've been programmed to believe that I have a soul but your forgetting this is all about a game. Just a game. Not a religious debate.

[M0keys]

TerraNomad wrote...

the key word is sentient. Not Organic or Synthetic. It's pretty much cannon in the Mass Effect story that the Geth are a sentient lifeform and therefore it does constitute genocide. That being said, this arguement is pointless. Given the stakes (the entire galaxy), the loss of a single race to secure the end to the war seems like an acceptable loss.

I believe that if you're Shepard, the hero of the galaxy and possibly a paragon, genocide unmakes you as the galaxy's guardian angel because now the blood is on your hands. When the chips were down, you lost your courage and sacrificed others in your stead.

At best, it makes you like The Operative from Serenity. Willing to murder countless innocents as long as you got your "perfect world" in the end. Complex, but most certainly still evil.

Modifié par M0keys, 11 avril 2012 - 05:59 .

[CronoDragoon]

shepard1038 wrote...

You can't say that Shepard commited genocide because he didn't have the intent to kill the Geth.
And the Geth and Edi and all the races were prepared to die to stop the reapers.

Now this is actually an argument I might agree with. In previous examples of genocide in our history, it occurs when a group of people willfully makes it the main purpose of their action to wipe out another people because of that people's race/whatever. The destruction of the geth is a side-effect of Shepard's action, something he does not want to do. I'm too tired to really post paragraphs on this but the circumstance when viewed in this way is actually different than the genocides human history has witnessed.

[Zine2]

The Irish Man wrote...
Your right, life is very precious no matter what form but you're missing my main point. Please don't compare me to hitler because this topic has nothing to do with my religion or what you believe in.

No we're not. You are denying that life can exist within a machine. You are engaging in the very same kind of intolerance that Hitler practiced, leading to genocide. Comparison will stand, now and forever, until you retract your intolerance.

The truth is THAT simple.

[The Irish Man]

Zine2 wrote...

M0keys wrote...
Seriously not cool attitude on these forums, dude.

Some truths need to be said, with the maximum level of clarity and fortrightness with no regard for petty "feelings".

Intolerance springs from declarations that one set of people are superior to one set of people based on arbitrary grounds. "We have a soul but they don't". That is how intolerance, racism, and genocide starts.

And when someone makes outright lies to support this argument, don't expect stupid platitudes or "I agree to disagree". We are chemical processes. We are biological machines. There is no "Buts!" about it. So any argument that we are somehow entitled to sentience and personhood - but machines are not - because Irish Man has "God" (in reality, delusional voices in his head) telling him so does not make it true in any sense of the word.

There are truths, and there are falsehoods. The idea that a machine cannot be a person is a lie.

Who said I have voices in my head? I beleive in God but I can't prove it. I have a right to believe.

[Riion]

Poshible wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

Yeah, that's pretty much what Hitler said.
Synthetics are people, deal with it.

Hitler liked to call it eugenics. Also was not destroying machines. Those were organics. Geth were built. Like my computer I am sitting in front of and...I liked Legion too, doesn't make it harder on me to decide to eliminate them to rid the galaxy of Reapers. Because they are not people...

http://dictionary.re...m/browse/people

First flaw: We live in an anthropocentric world, the ME universe is much more varied (and I would argue some animals deserve some sort of recognition as self aware today, although not necessarily on the same level as people as they are not capable of living in our society). The fact that we are in an anthropocentric environment means that we would not attribute personhood to beings we don't deem "sentient". And since we haven't officially agreed on any other species meeting that requirement... we define people as "human".

Second flaw: Technically, we are each "built" by our mothers, using a "blueprint" from both parents, in the form of a "code" called DNA. Why should the fact that you were not "born" naturally automatically make you not a person? What about test tube babies? Technically, they are "built" in a lab. 

Modifié par Riion, 11 avril 2012 - 06:03 .

[The Irish Man]

Zine2 wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...
Your right, life is very precious no matter what form but you're missing my main point. Please don't compare me to hitler because this topic has nothing to do with my religion or what you believe in.

No we're not. You are denying that life can exist within a machine. You are engaging in the very same kind of intolerance that Hitler practiced, leading to genocide. Comparison will stand, now and forever, until you retract your intolerance.

The truth is THAT simple.

The synthetic geth were truly living however machines aren't living. Synthetics aren't machines. Hitler was also insane and killed countless people because he felt that they were inferrior to his master race. Calling me hitler is silly. 

Modifié par The Irish Man, 11 avril 2012 - 06:04 .

[Zine2]

shepard1038 wrote...
You shouldn't touch that subject. You could offend people.

Asserting that machines - no matter their level of sentience - cannot be people is already offensive.

If you start an offensive argument, then don't whine when people point out how offensive and intolerant your initial arguments are.