644 réponses à ce sujet

[M0keys]

Zine2 wrote...

M0keys wrote...
Seriously not cool attitude on these forums, dude.

Some truths need to be said, with the maximum level of clarity and fortrightness with no regard for petty "feelings".

Intolerance springs from declarations that one set of people are superior to one set of people based on arbitrary grounds. "We have a soul but they don't". That is how intolerance, racism, and genocide starts.

And when someone makes outright lies to support this argument, don't expect stupid platitudes or "I agree to disagree". We are chemical processes. We are biological machines. There is no "Buts!" about it. So any argument that we are somehow entitled to sentience and personhood - but machines are not - because Irish Man has "God" (in reality, delusional voices in his head) telling him so does not make it true in any sense of the word.

There are truths, and there are falsehoods. The idea that a machine cannot be a person is a lie.

I understand your viewpoint, and I do believe you are on the right path in some aspects, but your approach is quite frankly bordering on what can only be described as "fundamentalist atheism," and is seriously threatening to derail the topic.

Oh, and genocide geth Shepard crucible. there, still technically on topic

Modifié par M0keys, 11 avril 2012 - 06:05 .

[Zine2]

The Irish Man wrote...

Who said I have voices in my head? I beleive in God but I can't prove it. I have a right to believe.

And I have a right to say that you're believing in imaginary voices in your head, because that's actually what you're doing.

[kumquats]

When you kill them on Rannoch, Shepard doesn't commit Genocide. But if you the player, choose to give them true intelligence. Legion in his last moments will refer to himself as I. In it's last moments. Legion was ALIVE. EDI tells you that. But what does she know? Just ignore her.

I'm with Jean-Luc.
And won't we be judged by how we treat that race?
I wish Picard would have visited Shepard on Rannoch, to make some things clearer. ^^

If it makes you feel better: No your Shepard didn't commit Genocide.

[shepard1038]

CronoDragoon wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

You can't say that Shepard commited genocide because he didn't have the intent to kill the Geth.
And the Geth and Edi and all the races were prepared to die to stop the reapers.

Now this is actually an argument I might agree with. In previous examples of genocide in our history, it occurs when a group of people willfully makes it the main purpose of their action to wipe out another people because of that people's race/whatever. The destruction of the geth is a side-effect of Shepard's action, something he does not want to do. I'm too tired to really post paragraphs on this but the circumstance when viewed in this way is actually different than the genocides human history has witnessed.

Thats what im saying he wanted to kill the reapers, but that action will kill the geth too. He didn't kill geth because
he hated them or they were synthetics but because it was necessary to kill the reapers to stop the cycle. A worthy
sacrifice to stop the reapers.Im sure when Shepard looks back he would say thanks and that without his sacrifice
he couldn't stop and kill the reapers.

Modifié par shepard1038, 11 avril 2012 - 06:08 .

[M0keys]

shepard1038 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

You can't say that Shepard commited genocide because he didn't have the intent to kill the Geth.
And the Geth and Edi and all the races were prepared to die to stop the reapers.

Now this is actually an argument I might agree with. In previous examples of genocide in our history, it occurs when a group of people willfully makes it the main purpose of their action to wipe out another people because of that people's race/whatever. The destruction of the geth is a side-effect of Shepard's action, something he does not want to do. I'm too tired to really post paragraphs on this but the circumstance when viewed in this way is actually different than the genocides human history has witnessed.

Thats what im saying he wanted to kill the reapers, but that action will kill the geth too. He didn't kill geth because
he hated them or they were synthetics but because it was necessary to kill the reapers to stop the cycle. A worthy
sacrifice to stop the reapers.

No, it's not a sacrifice. It's using an entire race of new, intelligent, curious sentient creatures as a means to an end, or as "collateral." 

When it comes to things that are self-aware, sacrifice is something you choose to do. Remember all the bad guys in stories who speak about the deaths of innocent women and children in situations as "a sad, but necessary sacrifice for blahblahblah reason."

[The Irish Man]

Zine2 wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

Who said I have voices in my head? I beleive in God but I can't prove it. I have a right to believe.

And I have a right to say that you're believing in imaginary voices in your head, because that's actually what you're doing.

When did I say that I had voices in my head? I don't believe that God will contact me through telepathy. And please stay on topic without your atheist remarks.

Modifié par The Irish Man, 11 avril 2012 - 06:10 .

[Elyiia]

shepard1038 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

You can't say that Shepard commited genocide because he didn't have the intent to kill the Geth.
And the Geth and Edi and all the races were prepared to die to stop the reapers.

Now this is actually an argument I might agree with. In previous examples of genocide in our history, it occurs when a group of people willfully makes it the main purpose of their action to wipe out another people because of that people's race/whatever. The destruction of the geth is a side-effect of Shepard's action, something he does not want to do. I'm too tired to really post paragraphs on this but the circumstance when viewed in this way is actually different than the genocides human history has witnessed.

Thats what im saying he wanted to kill the reapers, but that action will kill the geth too. He didn't kill geth because
he hated them or they were synthetics but because it was necessary to kill the reapers to stop the cycle. A worthy
sacrifice to stop the reapers.

Shepard deliberately destroyed the Geth because by doing so it destroyed the Reapers. It might blur the lines, but by definition it's still genocide.

[Elite Midget]

I did, but than a Relay blew up in my face.

[Riion]

shepard1038 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

You can't say that Shepard commited genocide because he didn't have the intent to kill the Geth.
And the Geth and Edi and all the races were prepared to die to stop the reapers.

Now this is actually an argument I might agree with. In previous examples of genocide in our history, it occurs when a group of people willfully makes it the main purpose of their action to wipe out another people because of that people's race/whatever. The destruction of the geth is a side-effect of Shepard's action, something he does not want to do. I'm too tired to really post paragraphs on this but the circumstance when viewed in this way is actually different than the genocides human history has witnessed.

Thats what im saying he wanted to kill the reapers, but that action will kill the geth too. He didn't kill geth because
he hated them or they were synthetics but because it was necessary to kill the reapers to stop the cycle. A worthy
sacrifice to stop the reapers.Im sure when Shepard looks back he would say thanks and that without his sacrifice
he couldn't stop and kill the reapers.

Good, we can now agree that the only reason it wasn't genocide was because it wasn't intentional (even though you made the "choice"... stupid endings... but I digress), not because the Geth are not considered "alive" or whatever term you wish to define it. /argument?

Edit: Technically, genocide is both deliberate and systematic elimination of a race/insert term denoting group. So Shepard is blurring the definition of genocide not by definition of the victim, but by definition of the methodology by which the action was carried out in. I would say the lines are extremely blurry. 

Modifié par Riion, 11 avril 2012 - 06:11 .

[shepard1038]

M0keys wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

You can't say that Shepard commited genocide because he didn't have the intent to kill the Geth.
And the Geth and Edi and all the races were prepared to die to stop the reapers.

Now this is actually an argument I might agree with. In previous examples of genocide in our history, it occurs when a group of people willfully makes it the main purpose of their action to wipe out another people because of that people's race/whatever. The destruction of the geth is a side-effect of Shepard's action, something he does not want to do. I'm too tired to really post paragraphs on this but the circumstance when viewed in this way is actually different than the genocides human history has witnessed.

Thats what im saying he wanted to kill the reapers, but that action will kill the geth too. He didn't kill geth because
he hated them or they were synthetics but because it was necessary to kill the reapers to stop the cycle. A worthy
sacrifice to stop the reapers.

No, it's not a sacrifice. It's using an entire race of new, intelligent, curious sentient creatures as a means to an end, or as "collateral." 

When it comes to things that are self-aware, sacrifice is something you choose to do. Remember all the bad guys in stories who speak about the deaths of innocent women and children in situations as "a sad, but necessary sacrifice for blahblahblah reason."

Yes, because you sacrificed a race to stop and evil threat.

[Allan Schumacher]

No, it's not a sacrifice. It's using an entire race of new, intelligent, curious sentient creatures as a means to an end, or as "collateral."

I think sacrifice is still the right word to use. It's just whether or not we think that Shepard has the right to decide the Geth's fate in order to destroy the Reapers.

"the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim. "

[CronoDragoon]

M0keys wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

You can't say that Shepard commited genocide because he didn't have the intent to kill the Geth.
And the Geth and Edi and all the races were prepared to die to stop the reapers.

Now this is actually an argument I might agree with. In previous examples of genocide in our history, it occurs when a group of people willfully makes it the main purpose of their action to wipe out another people because of that people's race/whatever. The destruction of the geth is a side-effect of Shepard's action, something he does not want to do. I'm too tired to really post paragraphs on this but the circumstance when viewed in this way is actually different than the genocides human history has witnessed.

Thats what im saying he wanted to kill the reapers, but that action will kill the geth too. He didn't kill geth because
he hated them or they were synthetics but because it was necessary to kill the reapers to stop the cycle. A worthy
sacrifice to stop the reapers.

No, it's not a sacrifice. It's using an entire race of new, intelligent, curious sentient creatures as a means to an end, or as "collateral." 

When it comes to things that are self-aware, sacrifice is something you choose to do. Remember all the bad guys in stories who speak about the deaths of innocent women and children in situations as "a sad, but necessary sacrifice for blahblahblah reason."

Usually villains are portrayed as consequentialists and protagonists as Kantians, so yeah that fits. Still, putting aside the "are synthetics people" argument, the question of whether or not it is genocide becomes murkier considering:

Shepard does not kill the geth because they are geth, as opposed to some other race. He does it because the Crucible will not allow him to destroy the Reapers without destroying the geth. This makes this case fundamentally different than any historical case of genocide of which I know.

[Zine2]

M0keys wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

M0keys wrote...
Seriously not cool attitude on these forums, dude.

Some truths need to be said, with the maximum level of clarity and fortrightness with no regard for petty "feelings".

Intolerance springs from declarations that one set of people are superior to one set of people based on arbitrary grounds. "We have a soul but they don't". That is how intolerance, racism, and genocide starts.

And when someone makes outright lies to support this argument, don't expect stupid platitudes or "I agree to disagree". We are chemical processes. We are biological machines. There is no "Buts!" about it. So any argument that we are somehow entitled to sentience and personhood - but machines are not - because Irish Man has "God" (in reality, delusional voices in his head) telling him so does not make it true in any sense of the word.

There are truths, and there are falsehoods. The idea that a machine cannot be a person is a lie.

I understand you rviewpoint, and I do believe you are on the right path in some aspects, but your approach is quite frankly bordering on what can only be described as "fundamentalist atheism," and is seriously threatening to derail the topics.

Oh, and genocide geth Shepard crucible. there, still technically on topic

Nah, I'm not an atheist. Religion has its positive influences.
 
I am however, highly intolerant of other people who use religion to justfy intolerance. Which is why I tend to use the battering ram known as "Scientific Facts" to dispel these silly notions of how we're God's special snowflake.

For instance, there used to be a time when Christianity claimed that everyone who wasn't baptized was destined to go to Hell. Unfortunately, they then realized a huge chunk of the world (i.e. China, India, the Americas) never even had contact with the Church, so technically every Chinese person before the arrivals of the Europeans went to Hell, no matter how virtuous.
 
Which only demonstrated how stupid and ethno-centric the doctrine was, leading to a revision of the dogma.

Religion is ultimately based on arbitrary choices, made by society or religious leaders, and not facts. And while it can sometimes be a guide for good behavior, other times it's just been used as a pretext for mass-murder. The slaughter of the innocent people of Jerusalem back in the Crusades is just one example of religion going nuts. It is this intolerant aspect that I rail against, not religion as a whole.

[AnImpossibleGirl]

Riion wrote...

Poshible wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

Yeah, that's pretty much what Hitler said.
Synthetics are people, deal with it.

Hitler liked to call it eugenics. Also was not destroying machines. Those were organics. Geth were built. Like my computer I am sitting in front of and...I liked Legion too, doesn't make it harder on me to decide to eliminate them to rid the galaxy of Reapers. Because they are not people...

http://dictionary.re...m/browse/people

First flaw: We live in an anthropocentric world, the ME universe is much more varied (and I would argue some animals deserve some sort of recognition as self aware today, although not necessarily on the same level as people as they are not capable of living in our society). No, I agree there. But, they are ORGANIC. They reproduce and the end result is more organic beings. Geth and EDI lack reproductive organs as well as all other organs. The fact that we are in an anthropocentric environment means that we would not attribute personhood to beings we don't deem "sentient". And since we haven't officially agreed on any other species meeting that requirement... we define people as "human".

Second flaw: Technically, we are each "built" by our mothers, using a "blueprint" from both parents,Why yes, exactly, we have parents. We were reproduced, not mass produced for servitude. in the form of a "code" called DNA. Why should the fact that you were not "born" naturally automatically make you not a person? What about test tube babies? Technically, they are "built" in a lab. 

We are discussing the Mass Effect Universe. In that, Shepard tells Soveriegn that he is not alive, not really, he is just a machine. Reapers are more adavanced than Geth and the entire universe actually has them to thank for thier current technology. Is killing the Reapers, in your assessment, any different from killing Geth?

No flaw within my logic, just a different understanding. Such as "corporations are people my friend'. Well no, they are comprised of people. But, the Supreme Court disagrees with my opinion. Fair enough.

Organic life has value why? Well we all value different things and THAT makes us valuable as a whole. The Geth (Because they are machines) do not. All human life is 99.9% identical yet we vary greatly. Geth do not. We choose our own path, we chose to live and love and do so how and with whom we choose. Geth...do not. EDI...maybe, but I will not get into sexbot talk.

Modifié par Poshible, 11 avril 2012 - 06:16 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I'd recommend keeping the topic away from religion as anything but a purely ancillary contribution to the topic, lest it gets derailed further.

[shodiswe]

shepard1038 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

Yeah, that's pretty much what Hitler said.
Synthetics are people, deal with it.

How can you compare the jews and all the people Hitler killed to the Geth???

There are only two differences, one this is only a "game" so it didn't hapen in the real world.
the second one is that this genocide of the geth is far more thourough, it's not a large part of the population group that gets killed it's all of them. Like wiping out all of humanity.

Then peopel can argure just liek the rebuildign the robots arguments... That if all of humanity was wiped out it would still be ok if the Salarians could clone us like they cloned the Kakliasauru bests for the Krogans to ride.

Geth can be rebuilt without all of their evolution and personal experiences, all "geth" culture would be lost. The new geth wouldn't be the same and there is no telling what they would do or which path they would take.
What made it special in my playthrough was Legion and the way he distributed his basecode to all geth to make them independant and reach true conciousness. Legion became the "geth Jesus or moses" or whatever.
Tali concedes that Legion has a soul out of respect for the "person" she had gotten to know, despite their cultural bias towards eachother.

Does it matter if thoughts derive from electrical impulses in between an organic brains synapses or a synthetic synapse comparative device?

Does being alive matter if the subject is human or turian? they can't even eat each others food because they are made of completely different aminos. Which is more fake if both shows the same ability to reason, grow a preference for people and do everything the other person does? People are of course individuals so some people will be better at doing certain things, which can usualy be derived from the environment they grow up in and what they have been doing during their life, (learning).

The answer to your question is yes, if it hapend in the real world then it's comparable seeing as both are considered living sentient beings. I can see it's not a comfortable comparison but isn't the generaly accepted idea of the holocaust or how ever it was speleled in english that you should remember it so it doesn't repeat, I always assumed it would include non-jews aswell   or non-jewish geth    

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 avril 2012 - 06:20 .

[Cruders]

shepard1038 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

Yeah, that's pretty much what Hitler said.
Synthetics are people, deal with it.

How can you compare the jews and all the people Hitler killed to the Geth???

because, if you allowed legion to upload (disseminate) then the Geth are TRUE AI. They are fully aware, and thus alive. They are indicative of life. which is why legion said "shepard-commander, I must go to them... I am... I'm sorry, it's the only way. <tali's response> I know tali, Thank you... Keelah Selai"

[M0keys]

shepard1038 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

You can't say that Shepard commited genocide because he didn't have the intent to kill the Geth.
And the Geth and Edi and all the races were prepared to die to stop the reapers.

Now this is actually an argument I might agree with. In previous examples of genocide in our history, it occurs when a group of people willfully makes it the main purpose of their action to wipe out another people because of that people's race/whatever. The destruction of the geth is a side-effect of Shepard's action, something he does not want to do. I'm too tired to really post paragraphs on this but the circumstance when viewed in this way is actually different than the genocides human history has witnessed.

Thats what im saying he wanted to kill the reapers, but that action will kill the geth too. He didn't kill geth because
he hated them or they were synthetics but because it was necessary to kill the reapers to stop the cycle. A worthy
sacrifice to stop the reapers.

No, it's not a sacrifice. It's using an entire race of new, intelligent, curious sentient creatures as a means to an end, or as "collateral." 

When it comes to things that are self-aware, sacrifice is something you choose to do. Remember all the bad guys in stories who speak about the deaths of innocent women and children in situations as "a sad, but necessary sacrifice for blahblahblah reason."

Yes, because you sacrificed a race to stop and evil threat.

But it's not sacrifice. It's murder.

The only time I've ever heard sacrifice used in this manner elsewhere, culturally, was when people sacrificed animals and teenagers to deities for appeasement. It's literally that level of thinking.

I suppose you could talk about the innocent Japanese during WW2 who got nuked to force the Japanese to surrender, but I'm not going to call that sacrifice either. It was a horrible, evil thing to do. It was murder. But it did work -- the Japanese surrendered - and no one (well, almost no one) ever said the US Government represented the absolute best of mankind so I guess you might be able to sorta kinda justify on that scale. Sorta.

But Shepard's practically the Messiah. He's Space Jesus. And here he is wiping out the entire future of a brand new sentient species.

You get to certain levels, and genocide of billions compared to genocide of trillions just doesn't make a difference on the Scale of Evilness anymore.

[CronoDragoon]

Poshible wrote...

Organic life has value why? Well we all value different things and THAT makes us valuable as a whole. The Geth (Because they are machines) do not. All human life is 99.9% identical yet we vary greatly. Geth do not. We choose our own path, we chose to live and love and do so how and with whom we choose. Geth...do not. EDI...maybe, but I will not get into sexbot talk.

Before Legion's sacrifice, yes. But after Legion they are autonomous individuals who do not re-up into the geth mainframe for consensus.

[acidic-ph0]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

No, it's not a sacrifice. It's using an entire race of new, intelligent, curious sentient creatures as a means to an end, or as "collateral."

I think sacrifice is still the right word to use. It's just whether or not we think that Shepard has the right to decide the Geth's fate in order to destroy the Reapers.

"the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim. "

Technically Shepherd doesn't have the "right" to make any of the final decisions. He/she's not given any information about what he/she's doing and we have no idea what the reprecussions will be for ANY of the three choices other than the relays being destroyed. Basically it's a "leap of faith" moment that decides the future for the entire galaxy. The only logical decission to make in a situation like this is none but we weren't allowed that choice <_<

[The Irish Man]

Zine2 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

M0keys wrote...
Seriously not cool attitude on these forums, dude.

Some truths need to be said, with the maximum level of clarity and fortrightness with no regard for petty "feelings".

Intolerance springs from declarations that one set of people are superior to one set of people based on arbitrary grounds. "We have a soul but they don't". That is how intolerance, racism, and genocide starts.

And when someone makes outright lies to support this argument, don't expect stupid platitudes or "I agree to disagree". We are chemical processes. We are biological machines. There is no "Buts!" about it. So any argument that we are somehow entitled to sentience and personhood - but machines are not - because Irish Man has "God" (in reality, delusional voices in his head) telling him so does not make it true in any sense of the word.

There are truths, and there are falsehoods. The idea that a machine cannot be a person is a lie.

I understand you rviewpoint, and I do believe you are on the right path in some aspects, but your approach is quite frankly bordering on what can only be described as "fundamentalist atheism," and is seriously threatening to derail the topics.

Oh, and genocide geth Shepard crucible. there, still technically on topic

Nah, I'm not an atheist. Religion has its positive influences.
 
I am however, highly intolerant of other people who use religion to justfy intolerance. Which is why I tend to use the battering ram known as "Scientific Facts" to dispel these silly notions of how we're God's special snowflake.

For instance, there used to be a time when Christianity claimed that everyone who wasn't baptized was destined to go to Hell. Unfortunately, they then realized a huge chunk of the world (i.e. China, India, the Americas) never even had contact with the Church, so technically every Chinese person before the arrivals of the Europeans went to Hell, no matter how virtuous.
 
Which only demonstrated how stupid and ethno-centric the doctrine was, leading to a revision of the dogma.

Religion is ultimately based on arbitrary choices, made by society or religious leaders, and not facts. And while it can sometimes be a guide for good behavior, other times it's just been used as a pretext for mass-murder. The slaughter of the innocent people of Jerusalem back in the Crusades is just one example of religion going nuts. It is this intolerant aspect that I rail against, not religion as a whole.

I respect your beliefs now I would appreciate if you would respect mine. My only opinion is that I don't believe Shepard committed genocide. I believe that he made a huge sacrifice. That's all, no need to get all idealistic on me. I'm only talking about a game here.

[eddieoctane]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

No, it's not a sacrifice. It's using an entire race of new, intelligent, curious sentient creatures as a means to an end, or as "collateral."

I think sacrifice is still the right word to use. It's just whether or not we think that Shepard has the right to decide the Geth's fate in order to destroy the Reapers.

"the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim. "

Well, we don't know how many truely intelligent geth exist not, so we can't really say that the other races are more entitled to exist because there are more of them combined than the geth. The only other fair claim I can think of is because we've been around longer, but that still sounds like terrible reasoning. Since I'm odler I can kill you? That's how to stop evolution dead in its tracks.

Even if Shepard did it for the "right" reasons, no genocide is a good genocie. He still becomes a monster if he wipes out the Geth.

[Slash1667]

Nobrandminda wrote...

Killing the Geth in the destroy ending is totally genocide.

They're sentient.

They're being killed because of the way they were born.

Open and shut case.

Ok, just a plot twist here, if Shepard had not been told the Geth would also be destroyed, picked red and then they were destroyed....would it still be genocide?

[Allan Schumacher]

Organic life has value why? Well we all value different things and THAT makes us valuable as a whole. The Geth (Because they are machines) do not. All human life is 99.9% identical yet we vary greatly. Geth do not. We choose our own path, we chose to live and love and do so how and with whom we choose. Geth...do not

I'm not sure the Geth do not value different things. Legion refers to itself in the first person (which he never does) by the end of the sequence on Rannoch. It also demonstrates the ability to have compassion and empathy when he says "Keelah Se'lai" to Tali.

It seems to me that last bit of uncertainty of how sentient the Geth were disappears at the end of Rannoch.

[Kulthar Drax]

hmm

Modifié par Kulthar Drax, 11 avril 2012 - 06:23 .