644 réponses à ce sujet

[Zubatman]

Technically speaking, killing a single reaper could be genocide, if you consider the way they are believed to be created, and in the end if you kill all the reapers, well that would also be genocide there.

[Zine2]

Euphemisms have always been used to justify genocide. It's not "genocide", it's "sacrifice". It's not "genocide". It's a "solution".

A sacrifice is one made willingly. When Mordin went up to the tower knowing he would die, that was sacrifice.

The Geth don't get a choice if Shep picks the red option. They just die. That's not sacrifice. That's murder.

Facts are facts. Playing around with definitions doesn't make it clever; it only reveals the depths of deception and self-denial required to pretend it isn't genocide.

[M0keys]

Zine2 wrote...

Euphemisms have always been used to justify genocide. It's not "genocide", it's "sacrifice". It's not "genocide". It's a "solution".

A sacrifice is one made willingly. When Mordin went up to the tower knowing he would die, that was sacrifice.

The Geth don't get a choice if Shep picks the red option. They just die. That's not sacrifice. That's murder.

Facts are facts. Playing around with definitions doesn't make it clever; it only reveals the depths of deception and self-denial required to pretend it isn't genocide.

I absolutely agree with you here.

[Allan Schumacher]

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Technically Shepherd doesn't have the "right" to make any of the final decisions. He/she's not given any information about what he/she's doing and we have no idea what the reprecussions will be for ANY of the three choices other than the relays being destroyed. Basically it's a "leap of faith" moment that decides the future for the entire galaxy. The only logical decission to make in a situation like this is none but we weren't allowed that choice <_<

Just to make sure I'm understanding here, you feel the issue is that Shepard shouldn't make the choice because he doesn't know what the reprecussions of his choice will be?  Can you elaborate a bit on that?

[Elyiia]

Genocide, by definition can still be a sacrifice.

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."

It's a sacrifice to kill the Geth but it's deliberate as soon as Shepard knows that choosing destroy will kill the Geth. It's a deliberate choice to destroy the Geth if, in the process, the Reapers are also destroyed.

[JonasPeti]

I think in ME3 universe the Geth are people. Why?
1. You can found files about Legion in the Shadow Broker's lair, you can read that he passed the Turing-test (nobody could recognize he is a computer or a human if cannot see or hear him, just using chat or something like that)
2. After Legion uploads the reaper code to the Geth, and quarians stopped firing, the Geth individuals are showing mercy for quarians. Legion is showing sacrifice for the Geth civilization.
3. Geth before the reaper code are "nearly" individual (see in Legion's quest, the talks about disagreement between Geth, plus Legion does some robot-dancing for his fun in the game, and Legion wears some piece of Shepard's armor, but can not answer why, he could be sad, when you say that "Geth are better than this") - this level of "intelligence" reached by Geth themself, not given by quarians.

The other options, for example turning 180 degrees in thinking can be found in organics too.
There are organics, who doesn't fall in love (salarians), there are organics who not christians (and their "soul concept" is different from ours), and at the end Shepard says about himself, "maybe I'm a VI, who think he is Commander Shepard..."

Love, emotions, dying for protecting ours, loyalty, sacrifice, thinking ways, accomodation, creativity, religion, faith in something, personality can be programmed. With the reaper code, Geth can given the chance to be people.

Killing reapers is a genocide too, I think. Just they are the "bad guys", so it is acceptable most of humans.

Modifié par JonasPeti, 11 avril 2012 - 06:23 .

[Zine2]

Zubatman wrote...

Technically speaking, killing a single reaper could be genocide, if you consider the way they are believed to be created, and in the end if you kill all the reapers, well that would also be genocide there.

Again, this is playing around with definitions.

When a race of people is turned into a Reaper, they no longer exist. When you eat a chicken, the chicken no longer exists. The Reapers genocided the people. It's that simple.

Killing a Reaper is simply killing a Reaper. You're killing a war criminal, not committing genocide.

[Allan Schumacher]

Zine2 wrote...

Euphemisms have always been used to justify genocide. It's not "genocide", it's "sacrifice". It's not "genocide". It's a "solution".

A sacrifice is one made willingly. When Mordin went up to the tower knowing he would die, that was sacrifice.

The Geth don't get a choice if Shep picks the red option. They just die. That's not sacrifice. That's murder.

Facts are facts. Playing around with definitions doesn't make it clever; it only reveals the depths of deception and self-denial required to pretend it isn't genocide.

Looking strictly at the definition, I'm still not sure why the word sacrifice isn't applicable.  Note, I'm not saying that the term "genocide" doesn't also apply.  They don't appear to be mutually exclusive words.

[M0keys]

But nothing is worth the genocide of the Geth. Nothing. If you can not protect the Greatest Newest Symbol of The Evolution and Magic of Emergent Life in your efforts to save the galaxy, you might as well just walk away. Life isn't a vague concept, you see it all around you in Mass Effect. You're fighting for what they all are.

And remember Mordin's lesson. He made a mistake.

But this is one mistake for which Shepard will never be able to atone.

[Elyiia]

JonasPeti wrote...

I think in ME3 universe the Geth are people. Why?
1. You can found files about Legion in the Shadow Broker's lair, you can read that he passed the Turing-test (nobody could recognize he is a computer or a human if cannot see or hear him, just using chat or something like that)
2. After Legion uploads the reaper code to the Geth, and quarians stopped firing, the Geth individuals are showing mercy for quarians. Legion is showing sacrifice for the Geth civilization.
3. Geth before the reaper code are "nearly" individual (see in Legion's quest, the talks about disagreement between Geth, plus Legion does some robot-dancing for his fun in the game, and Legion wears some piece of Shepard's armor, but can not answer why, he could be sad, when you say that "Geth are better than this") - this level of "intelligence" reached by Geth themself, not given by quarians.

The other options, for example turning 180 degrees in thinking can be found in organics too.
There are organics, who doesn't fall in love (salarians), there are organics who not christians (and their "soul concept" is different from ours), and at the end Shepard says about himself, "maybe I'm a VI, who think he is Commander Shepard..."

Love, emotions, dying for protecting ours, loyalty, sacrifice, thinking ways, accomodation, creativity, religion, faith in something, personality can be programmed. With the reaper code, Geth can given the chance to be people.

Killing reapers is a genocide too, I think. Just they are the "wrong guys", so it is acceptable most of humans.

This is important too. Killing the Reapers is also genocide but it's justified on the basis they're processing us. Doesn't stop it being genocide though.

[CronoDragoon]

There are multiple definitions of sacrifice. The one involving a choice is only one definition. That doesn't mean it isn't genocide, but just cherry-picking one definition of a word isn't fair.

[Riion]

Poshible wrote...

Riion wrote...

Poshible wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

Targeting a specific group for extinction = Genocide.

In this case, synthetics.

What he said.

Synthetics aren't naturally organic beings. Your killing off robots that have enough written code in them to make their own decisions.

Yeah, that's pretty much what Hitler said.
Synthetics are people, deal with it.

Hitler liked to call it eugenics. Also was not destroying machines. Those were organics. Geth were built. Like my computer I am sitting in front of and...I liked Legion too, doesn't make it harder on me to decide to eliminate them to rid the galaxy of Reapers. Because they are not people...

http://dictionary.re...m/browse/people

First flaw: We live in an anthropocentric world, the ME universe is much more varied (and I would argue some animals deserve some sort of recognition as self aware today, although not necessarily on the same level as people as they are not capable of living in our society). No, I agree there. But, they are ORGANIC. They reproduce and the end result is more organic beings. Geth and EDI lack reproductive organs as well as all other organs. The fact that we are in an anthropocentric environment means that we would not attribute personhood to beings we don't deem "sentient". And since we haven't officially agreed on any other species meeting that requirement... we define people as "human".

Second flaw: Technically, we are each "built" by our mothers, using a "blueprint" from both parents,Why yes, exactly, we have parents. We were reproduced, not mass produced for servitude. in the form of a "code" called DNA. Why should the fact that you were not "born" naturally automatically make you not a person? What about test tube babies? Technically, they are "built" in a lab. 

We are discussing the Mass Effect Universe. In that, Shepard tells Soveriegn that he is not alive, not really, he is just a machine. Reapers are more adavanced than Geth and the entire universe actually has them to thank for thier current technology. Is killing the Reapers, in your assessment, any different from killing Geth?

No flaw within my logic, just a different understanding. Such as "corporations are people my friend'. Well no, they are comprised of people. But, the Supreme Court disagrees with my opinion. Fair enough.

Organic life has value why? Well we all value different things and THAT makes us valuable as a whole. The Geth (Because they are machines) do not. All human life is 99.9% identical yet we vary greatly. Geth do not. We choose our own path, we chose to live and love and do so how and with whom we choose. Geth...do not. EDI...maybe, but I will not get into sexbot talk.

Killing the Reapers would be the same as killing the Geth which would be the same as killing organics. Whether it's morally right or not all depends on context, e.g. war, murder, etc. But if in the same context, then I would value each the same, e.g. war with Reapers vs war with Geth vs war with Organics, would all be interpreted as the same situation to me, morally. 

The Geth are individualized after the Reaper upgrade, and Reapers are just a big unknown. But even before the upgrade, I would have counted the Geth as synthetic life. You could even count them as one "consciousness", if you want. 

Regarding organics and "choice", that's a common debate in philosophy, which I doubt anyone wants to partake in. However, if you accept that organics CAN have choice, what prevents synthetic life from doing so as well?

[Zine2]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Technically Shepherd doesn't have the "right" to make any of the final decisions. He/she's not given any information about what he/she's doing and we have no idea what the reprecussions will be for ANY of the three choices other than the relays being destroyed. Basically it's a "leap of faith" moment that decides the future for the entire galaxy. The only logical decission to make in a situation like this is none but we weren't allowed that choice <_<

Just to make sure I'm understanding here, you feel the issue is that Shepard shouldn't make the choice because he doesn't know what the reprecussions of his choice will be?  Can you elaborate a bit on that?

That's actually a perfectly justifiable position to take. Shepard is indeed given NO information to show that the Star Child is telling the truth. For all he/she knows, jumping down the "Synthesis" cliff will just lead to his/her death without saving the galaxy.

It is literally a leap of faith, and your only "guarantee" is from the Star Child who has admitted to controlling the Reapers and is therefore the one who is responsible for all the deaths in the series.

[Allan Schumacher]

M0keys wrote...

But nothing is worth the genocide of the Geth. Nothing. If you can not protect the Greatest Newest Symbol of The Evolution and Magic of Emergent Life in your efforts to save the galaxy, you might as well just walk away. Life isn't a vague concept, you see it all around you in Mass Effect. You're fighting for what they all are.

And remember Mordin's lesson. He made a mistake.

But this is one mistake for which Shepard will never be able to atone.

Assuming the Geth would not be destroyed, is it still right to genocide the Reapers?

[shepard1038]

No is not genocide. Its sacrifice because it is for the greater good. If shepard went to the citadel with the intent to kill the geth then it would have been genocide.

Modifié par shepard1038, 11 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[M0keys]

Elyiia wrote...

JonasPeti wrote...

I think in ME3 universe the Geth are people. Why?
1. You can found files about Legion in the Shadow Broker's lair, you can read that he passed the Turing-test (nobody could recognize he is a computer or a human if cannot see or hear him, just using chat or something like that)
2. After Legion uploads the reaper code to the Geth, and quarians stopped firing, the Geth individuals are showing mercy for quarians. Legion is showing sacrifice for the Geth civilization.
3. Geth before the reaper code are "nearly" individual (see in Legion's quest, the talks about disagreement between Geth, plus Legion does some robot-dancing for his fun in the game, and Legion wears some piece of Shepard's armor, but can not answer why, he could be sad, when you say that "Geth are better than this") - this level of "intelligence" reached by Geth themself, not given by quarians.

The other options, for example turning 180 degrees in thinking can be found in organics too.
There are organics, who doesn't fall in love (salarians), there are organics who not christians (and their "soul concept" is different from ours), and at the end Shepard says about himself, "maybe I'm a VI, who think he is Commander Shepard..."

Love, emotions, dying for protecting ours, loyalty, sacrifice, thinking ways, accomodation, creativity, religion, faith in something, personality can be programmed. With the reaper code, Geth can given the chance to be people.

Killing reapers is a genocide too, I think. Just they are the "wrong guys", so it is acceptable most of humans.

This is important too. Killing the Reapers is also genocide but it's justified on the basis they're processing us. Doesn't stop it being genocide though.

I consider the Reapers to be on the same level as zombies. Maybe they used to be worth worrying about in terms of their worth as creatures, but now they are Living Death Incarnate, and exist only to exterminate you in unison.

I have no problem wiping their existence away.

[Zine2]

CronoDragoon wrote...

There are multiple definitions of sacrifice. The one involving a choice is only one definition. That doesn't mean it isn't genocide, but just cherry-picking one definition of a word isn't fair.

Wrong. That's semantic wordplay. If you're saying "sacrifice" can be unwilling, then your definition of sacrifice is actually no different from murder or genocide.

I have absolutely no need to play around with words. Why use "sacrifice" when it has other implications, when what is actually truly being committed is "murder" and "genocide"?

Using the word "sacrifice" is nothing more than an attempt to muddle the issue. It's semantic wordplay. It's lying to people about the reality of the situation.

[goose2989]

The Irish Man wrote...

 When the relays blew up it wasn't like the exposion from the arrival relay. The relays simply fell apart leaving all the races stranded in their own systems. During the destroy ending Shepard only kills all synthetics. The star child never said he would kill all life. The explosions from the individual relays most likely transported everyone to different places as seen with the Normandy. I'm pretty sure everyone didn't die because the alliance soldiers were stil on Earth after the blast.

You are assuming a great deal, buddy

[M0keys]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But
nothing is worth the genocide of the Geth. Nothing. If you can not
protect the Greatest Newest Symbol of The Evolution and Magic of
Emergent Life in your efforts to save the galaxy, you might as well just
walk away. Life isn't a vague concept, you see it all around you in
Mass Effect. You're fighting for what they all are.

And remember Mordin's lesson. He made a mistake.

But this is one mistake for which Shepard will never be able to atone.

Assuming the Geth would not be destroyed, is it still right to genocide the Reapers?

See below:

M0keys wrote...

I consider the Reapers to be on the same level as zombies. Maybe they used to be worth worrying about in terms of their worth as creatures, but now they are Living Death Incarnate, and exist only to exterminate you in unison.

I have no problem wiping their existence away.

[CronoDragoon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But nothing is worth the genocide of the Geth. Nothing. If you can not protect the Greatest Newest Symbol of The Evolution and Magic of Emergent Life in your efforts to save the galaxy, you might as well just walk away. Life isn't a vague concept, you see it all around you in Mass Effect. You're fighting for what they all are.

And remember Mordin's lesson. He made a mistake.

But this is one mistake for which Shepard will never be able to atone.

Assuming the Geth would not be destroyed, is it still right to genocide the Reapers?

Since they are trying to genocide you, I consider an act of self-defense equal to the severity of the attack, and therefore justifiable.

[goose2989]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But nothing is worth the genocide of the Geth. Nothing. If you can not protect the Greatest Newest Symbol of The Evolution and Magic of Emergent Life in your efforts to save the galaxy, you might as well just walk away. Life isn't a vague concept, you see it all around you in Mass Effect. You're fighting for what they all are.

And remember Mordin's lesson. He made a mistake.

But this is one mistake for which Shepard will never be able to atone.

Assuming the Geth would not be destroyed, is it still right to genocide the Reapers?

The Reapers have it coming to them

[Elyiia]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But nothing is worth the genocide of the Geth. Nothing. If you can not protect the Greatest Newest Symbol of The Evolution and Magic of Emergent Life in your efforts to save the galaxy, you might as well just walk away. Life isn't a vague concept, you see it all around you in Mass Effect. You're fighting for what they all are.

And remember Mordin's lesson. He made a mistake.

But this is one mistake for which Shepard will never be able to atone.

Assuming the Geth would not be destroyed, is it still right to genocide the Reapers?

I think the genocide of the Reapers is justified based on the fact that they are trying to process us. If they weren't then it would not be. It would also not be right if it was only part of the Reapers trying to process us.

No is not genocide. Its sacrifice because it is for the greater good. If shepard went to the citadel
with the intent to kill the geth then it would have been genocide.

It's genocide, Shepard deliberately destroys the Geth because in the process it destroys the Reapers. This is the very definition of genocide.

[Grasich]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But nothing is worth the genocide of the Geth. Nothing. If you can not protect the Greatest Newest Symbol of The Evolution and Magic of Emergent Life in your efforts to save the galaxy, you might as well just walk away. Life isn't a vague concept, you see it all around you in Mass Effect. You're fighting for what they all are.

And remember Mordin's lesson. He made a mistake.

But this is one mistake for which Shepard will never be able to atone.

Assuming the Geth would not be destroyed, is it still right to genocide the Reapers?

Seeing as each one of them could be considered war criminals a million times over, I'm going to say... yes.

[AnImpossibleGirl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Organic life has value why? Well we all value different things and THAT makes us valuable as a whole. The Geth (Because they are machines) do not. All human life is 99.9% identical yet we vary greatly. Geth do not. We choose our own path, we chose to live and love and do so how and with whom we choose. Geth...do not

I'm not sure the Geth do not value different things. Legion refers to itself in the first person (which he never does) by the end of the sequence on Rannoch. It also demonstrates the ability to have compassion and empathy when he says "Keelah Se'lai" to Tali.

It seems to me that last bit of uncertainty of how sentient the Geth were disappears at the end of Rannoch.

Yet, you just referred to Legion as "itself" and "it".  Not himself or him.
I'm just saying, if the Geth are alive--then the reapers are alive. Harbinger tells Shepard "You are becoming an annoyance". To be annoyed, you feel. So killing the Reapers is no different. In the logic being presented to me anyway.

Shepard was not given the choice to save everybody. Shepard was handed bad choices and had to make one. 

[shepard1038]

Elyiia wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But nothing is worth the genocide of the Geth. Nothing. If you can not protect the Greatest Newest Symbol of The Evolution and Magic of Emergent Life in your efforts to save the galaxy, you might as well just walk away. Life isn't a vague concept, you see it all around you in Mass Effect. You're fighting for what they all are.

And remember Mordin's lesson. He made a mistake.

But this is one mistake for which Shepard will never be able to atone.

Assuming the Geth would not be destroyed, is it still right to genocide the Reapers?

I think the genocide of the Reapers is justified based on the fact that they are trying to process us. If they weren't then it would not be. It would also not be right if it was only part of the Reapers trying to process us.

No is not genocide. Its sacrifice because it is for the greater good. If shepard went to the citadel
with the intent to kill the geth then it would have been genocide.

It's genocide, Shepard deliberately destroys the Geth because in the process it destroys the Reapers. This is the very definition of genocide.

Stop twisting words. No, Shepard destroys the reapers and in the process it destroys the Geth. If Shepard main
intent was to kill the geth then it is genocide. The guardian never says that destroy kills the Geth and in the
process destroys the reapers. He says that if you chose to destroy the reapers, that it will kill the Geth too.

Modifié par shepard1038, 11 avril 2012 - 06:34 .