132 réponses à ce sujet

[blacqout]

James_Raynor wrote...

It only makes sense if you're ignore everything else in mass effect lore.

So I guess you're right, it does make sense if you strip ignore the rest of the fluff.

Yes, like ignoring the huge deal being made out of the Reapers being part-organic, and such not really constrained by the "synthetics always rebel" claim. 

Oh wait, that's you that is ignoring that, isn't it.

[Rogue Unit]

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

If the catalyst created the Reapers, and all synthetics rebel against their creators... then what is stopping the Reapers from rebelling against the catalyst?

If the catalyst is a synthetic (you know, an AI like he appears to be), did he kill the organics who created him?

And "Retake" raised $80,000 for Child's Play. How is that not helping the children?

The Reapers are not synthetics. They're part organic.

In order for Shepard to assume control of the Reapers, he had to die. Not become an AI. The truth is we don't really know what the Catalyst is exactly, but i see no reason to consider that it didn't claim its position in a similar way to Shepard. 

And then Child's Play unceremoniously distanced itself from the movement. Holding the line is not helping the children, as his signature suggests. It's not really up for debate. 

How does that change the fact that 80k still was donated?

[The Captainator]

Dexi wrote...

I'm with blacqout...

Catalyst's logic makes perfect sense.
People just cry and jump from one stance on the ending to another ( no happy with LI ending? FLAOWED LOGICKZ!; not the reason I thought the Reapers been reapin'? LULZ BIOWARE YOU STUPID?! FLAAOOWWED LOGICKKKZZ!! ).

This.

You all are upset because you didn't get what you wanted.  Heaven forbid there be some ending other than ice cream with sprinkles.  You expect the whole series of sacrifice and difficult choices to change in the end and everyone lives happily ever after making helmetted babies?

All the logical flaws and ending questions and complaints are just crap.  It can all be easily explained by any person remotely capable of imagining science fiction.  And no I'm not goign to go through each one here.  Use your imagination, or shut up and wait for the extended cut.  They've stated they're not going to officially say what happened until it comes out, like any other content release.

[blacqout]

Rogue Unit wrote...

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

If the catalyst created the Reapers, and all synthetics rebel against their creators... then what is stopping the Reapers from rebelling against the catalyst?

If the catalyst is a synthetic (you know, an AI like he appears to be), did he kill the organics who created him?

And "Retake" raised $80,000 for Child's Play. How is that not helping the children?

The Reapers are not synthetics. They're part organic.

In order for Shepard to assume control of the Reapers, he had to die. Not become an AI. The truth is we don't really know what the Catalyst is exactly, but i see no reason to consider that it didn't claim its position in a similar way to Shepard. 

And then Child's Play unceremoniously distanced itself from the movement. Holding the line is not helping the children, as his signature suggests. It's not really up for debate. 

How does that change the fact that 80k still was donated?

The fact that his signature states "Hold the line, help the children." and not "Holding the line, helped the children". 

Do i really need to explain the difference between past and present tense to you? His signature implies that the Retake movement is still helping a child's charity, which it isn't.

[Rogue Unit]

blacqout wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

If the catalyst created the Reapers, and all synthetics rebel against their creators... then what is stopping the Reapers from rebelling against the catalyst?

If the catalyst is a synthetic (you know, an AI like he appears to be), did he kill the organics who created him?

And "Retake" raised $80,000 for Child's Play. How is that not helping the children?

The Reapers are not synthetics. They're part organic.

In order for Shepard to assume control of the Reapers, he had to die. Not become an AI. The truth is we don't really know what the Catalyst is exactly, but i see no reason to consider that it didn't claim its position in a similar way to Shepard. 

And then Child's Play unceremoniously distanced itself from the movement. Holding the line is not helping the children, as his signature suggests. It's not really up for debate. 

How does that change the fact that 80k still was donated?

The fact that his signature states "Hold the line, help the children." and not "Holding the line, helped the children". 

Do i really need to explain the difference between past and present tense to you? His signature implies that the Retake movement is still helping a child's charity, which it isn't.

You know that probably an old signature right? The logical conclusion to anyone with half a brain would be that he just didn't feel like removing it after the charity was over, instead of assuming that the signature is falsely implying that RME is still donating to charity in an attempt to gain followers.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 11 avril 2012 - 05:26 .

[CyberF3y]

Sorry, not synthetics vs organics exactly but created vs creators... I went back and watched the conversation again.

When he argues that synthetics would kill all organics, my Shep proved that wrong. Peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians (and the Quarians shot first, the Geth were simply protecting their own to escape.) This is not an absolute. Synthetics and Organics are at peace in my game.

And I'm not talking about Shepard in question #2. I'm talking about the catalyst. He is not organic. He may be an odd hybrid, but he does not appear to be organic. Thus he was a created form. What happened to his creators? Not knowing what the catalyst is adds to the problem. I feel people want to know who the catalyst is, how it was created, and why the destruction of multiple civilizations was left to this one AI-like being.

The more I see the three ending choices, the more I want to believe the indoc theory. The whole thing makes less sense than the dark energy ending.

You're correct, holding the line is not helping the children. However, those who decided to become part of the movement saw the potential to do some good in the world and decided to put their efforts in making use of the energy of the protestors. Giving to charity can be cathartic to those who are hurting. It was a good gesture of positivity that should not be dismissed. Child's Play DID distance themselves because they cannot be associated with any group, political or otherwise. It detracts from the message of charity which is to just help others. It was understandable. The charity drives in the Retake movement are to help people who are already focused do some good while waiting for a response from BioWare.

[blacqout]

Rogue Unit wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

If the catalyst created the Reapers, and all synthetics rebel against their creators... then what is stopping the Reapers from rebelling against the catalyst?

If the catalyst is a synthetic (you know, an AI like he appears to be), did he kill the organics who created him?

And "Retake" raised $80,000 for Child's Play. How is that not helping the children?

The Reapers are not synthetics. They're part organic.

In order for Shepard to assume control of the Reapers, he had to die. Not become an AI. The truth is we don't really know what the Catalyst is exactly, but i see no reason to consider that it didn't claim its position in a similar way to Shepard. 

And then Child's Play unceremoniously distanced itself from the movement. Holding the line is not helping the children, as his signature suggests. It's not really up for debate. 

How does that change the fact that 80k still was donated?

The fact that his signature states "Hold the line, help the children." and not "Holding the line, helped the children". 

Do i really need to explain the difference between past and present tense to you? His signature implies that the Retake movement is still helping a child's charity, which it isn't.

You know that probably an old signature right? The logical conclusion to anyone with half a brain would be that he just didn't feel like removing it after the charity was over, instead of assuming that the signature is falsely implying that RME is still donating to charity in an attempt to gain followers.

He should have changed it immediately upon hearing of CP's wishe to distance themselves from the movement. It's not a difficult thing to do. 

As it is, his signature is misleading and intellectually dishonest. It's one thing to parade sick kids to publicise a cause, it's quite another to claim you're helping children when you aren't. It borders on disgusting.

[blacqout]

CyberF3y wrote...

Sorry, not synthetics vs organics exactly but created vs creators... I went back and watched the conversation again.

When he argues that synthetics would kill all organics, my Shep proved that wrong. Peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians (and the Quarians shot first, the Geth were simply protecting their own to escape.) This is not an absolute. Synthetics and Organics are at peace in my game.

And I'm not talking about Shepard in question #2. I'm talking about the catalyst. He is not organic. He may be an odd hybrid, but he does not appear to be organic. Thus he was a created form. What happened to his creators? Not knowing what the catalyst is adds to the problem. I feel people want to know who the catalyst is, how it was created, and why the destruction of multiple civilizations was left to this one AI-like being.

The more I see the three ending choices, the more I want to believe the indoc theory. The whole thing makes less sense than the dark energy ending.

You're correct, holding the line is not helping the children. However, those who decided to become part of the movement saw the potential to do some good in the world and decided to put their efforts in making use of the energy of the protestors. Giving to charity can be cathartic to those who are hurting. It was a good gesture of positivity that should not be dismissed. Child's Play DID distance themselves because they cannot be associated with any group, political or otherwise. It detracts from the message of charity which is to just help others. It was understandable. The charity drives in the Retake movement are to help people who are already focused do some good while waiting for a response from BioWare.

No, it is synthetics versus organics, regardless of the terminology used. The Reapers' specified purpose is to prevent synthetics from destroying organics. 

How much of a hand did the Protheans have in the development of younger species, like humanity? I don't recall precisely, but i remember the phrase "interventionary evolutionists" being used in a codex entry in the first game. 

To some extent, the Protheans "created" humanity. The Reapers hit the citadel in their cycle and are said to have gained access to all their records. They'd have known about Earth... but they didn't "ascend" humanity. Why? Because it's about synthetics.

[CyberF3y]

The Captainator wrote...

Dexi wrote...

I'm with blacqout...

Catalyst's logic makes perfect sense.
People just cry and jump from one stance on the ending to another ( no happy with LI ending? FLAOWED LOGICKZ!; not the reason I thought the Reapers been reapin'? LULZ BIOWARE YOU STUPID?! FLAAOOWWED LOGICKKKZZ!! ).

This.

You all are upset because you didn't get what you wanted.  Heaven forbid there be some ending other than ice cream with sprinkles.  You expect the whole series of sacrifice and difficult choices to change in the end and everyone lives happily ever after making helmetted babies?

All the logical flaws and ending questions and complaints are just crap.  It can all be easily explained by any person remotely capable of imagining science fiction.  And no I'm not goign to go through each one here.  Use your imagination, or shut up and wait for the extended cut.  They've stated they're not going to officially say what happened until it comes out, like any other content release.

Okay, I am capable of imagining science fiction.  I love Star Trek and the like, so how do you make Synthetics suddently have DNA?  Also, telling people to shut up on a forum will never happen.  People will type to their hearts' contents.  And why would that upset them?  They wanted plenty of speculation, which is what we're doing.  

As far as ice cream and sprinkles--no.  I EXPECT Bioware to give an experience comparable to what they gave in ME1 and ME2--an ending that took into account my past choices and didn't just downgrade them to a number.  I didn't expect Shep to live.  I expected an ending that made sense when looking at the lore of the world.  I expected there to be a reason for the Reapers' existance that wasn't simply pruning a garden so the weeds don't overrun the flowers.  I expected the fact that if your game proves the created vs creator logic wrong for that to be considered in the ending.

In fairness to Bioware, I also expected them to do a wrap-up similar to Bethesda's FallOut: New Vegas.  Sure, it's text and a picture.  However it's closure.  It took into considerations choices you made on how to complete missions, making peace, etc.  It wrapped everything up.  I guess they didn't want to copy Bethesda's endings.  

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

blacqout wrote...
It wouldn't make much sense for the Reapers to just attack the synthetic upstarts, because the organic races that created them would make the same mistakes again if left unchecked. The Reapers aren't so much protecting the organic races from themselves - more like young organic races from the more advanced ones that will meddle in dangerous things like artificial life.
I only said that the Catalyst's logic made sense. Your questions don't really pertain to that.

Well, I asked for a cannon answer with ingame proofs, not baseless assumption.

[CyberF3y]

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

Sorry, not synthetics vs organics exactly but created vs creators... I went back and watched the conversation again.

When he argues that synthetics would kill all organics, my Shep proved that wrong. Peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians (and the Quarians shot first, the Geth were simply protecting their own to escape.) This is not an absolute. Synthetics and Organics are at peace in my game.

And I'm not talking about Shepard in question #2. I'm talking about the catalyst. He is not organic. He may be an odd hybrid, but he does not appear to be organic. Thus he was a created form. What happened to his creators? Not knowing what the catalyst is adds to the problem. I feel people want to know who the catalyst is, how it was created, and why the destruction of multiple civilizations was left to this one AI-like being.

The more I see the three ending choices, the more I want to believe the indoc theory. The whole thing makes less sense than the dark energy ending.

You're correct, holding the line is not helping the children. However, those who decided to become part of the movement saw the potential to do some good in the world and decided to put their efforts in making use of the energy of the protestors. Giving to charity can be cathartic to those who are hurting. It was a good gesture of positivity that should not be dismissed. Child's Play DID distance themselves because they cannot be associated with any group, political or otherwise. It detracts from the message of charity which is to just help others. It was understandable. The charity drives in the Retake movement are to help people who are already focused do some good while waiting for a response from BioWare.

No, it is synthetics versus organics, regardless of the terminology used. The Reapers' specified purpose is to prevent synthetics from destroying organics. 

How much of a hand did the Protheans have in the development of younger species, like humanity? I don't recall precisely, but i remember the phrase "interventionary evolutionists" being used in a codex entry in the first game. 

To some extent, the Protheans "created" humanity. The Reapers hit the citadel in their cycle and are said to have gained access to all their records. They'd have known about Earth... but they didn't "ascend" humanity. Why? Because it's about synthetics.

The Protheans did help evolve Asari.  (Take Javik to the Thessia mission--he explains everything.)  There were ruins on Mars, however I don't think they had a hand in humanity's development very much.  They did not create humanity.  They showed the Asari math and how to farm because they didn't want the fledgeling race to starve.  When Liara confronts Javik about this, he tells her that they say potential in the Asari and helped them survive.  The Protheans did not create humanity.

The Reapers didn't take humanity because they were still developing.  The same reason they don't harvest pyjacks.  True, the main focus is about preventing the creation of synthetics that will extinguish organic life.  However, you can prove that wrong.  Synthetics and Organics can live harmoniously.  You can prove the catalyst wrong.

And if it's just about synthetics vs organics, why not wipe out the synthetics?  Why kill organics?  The organics will likely keep killing each other off.  I think a better reason to wipe out whole species of advanced civilizations would be to allow younger ones to develop.  That arguement is a better one.

[JBONE27]

The Captainator wrote...

Dexi wrote...

I'm with blacqout...

Catalyst's logic makes perfect sense.
People just cry and jump from one stance on the ending to another ( no happy with LI ending? FLAOWED LOGICKZ!; not the reason I thought the Reapers been reapin'? LULZ BIOWARE YOU STUPID?! FLAAOOWWED LOGICKKKZZ!! ).

This.

You all are upset because you didn't get what you wanted.  Heaven forbid there be some ending other than ice cream with sprinkles.  You expect the whole series of sacrifice and difficult choices to change in the end and everyone lives happily ever after making helmetted babies?

All the logical flaws and ending questions and complaints are just crap.  It can all be easily explained by any person remotely capable of imagining science fiction.  And no I'm not goign to go through each one here.  Use your imagination, or shut up and wait for the extended cut.  They've stated they're not going to officially say what happened until it comes out, like any other content release.

Don't you just love straw men?

The fact that in game lore disproves the starchild's logic is the reason why the only way his argument works is if it's reversed.  

The geth didn't rebel against their creators.  The quarians attacked the geth.  When the quarians left their planet the geth didn't follow for 300 years.  The only geth that did follow after the 300 years were up were convinced to by the reapers, who as we all know, seek to whipe out advanced organic life.  

EDI, the most advanced AI in the galaxy, stated as a matter of fact that she would willingly give her life so that organics (in particular Shepard and Joker) could survive.  

Getting back to the geth and quarians, it was revealed in ME2 that if the quarians would have returned without attacking, the geth would welcome them back home.  Does that sound like the actions of a rebel?  

Not to mention the fact that you are able to make peace between the geth and quarians, which leads to the geth helping the quarians acclimate to Rannoc's environment more quickly.

Let's face it, starchild's argument as it stands does not hold up to lore.

[Rogue Unit]

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

Sorry, not synthetics vs organics exactly but created vs creators... I went back and watched the conversation again.

When he argues that synthetics would kill all organics, my Shep proved that wrong. Peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians (and the Quarians shot first, the Geth were simply protecting their own to escape.) This is not an absolute. Synthetics and Organics are at peace in my game.

And I'm not talking about Shepard in question #2. I'm talking about the catalyst. He is not organic. He may be an odd hybrid, but he does not appear to be organic. Thus he was a created form. What happened to his creators? Not knowing what the catalyst is adds to the problem. I feel people want to know who the catalyst is, how it was created, and why the destruction of multiple civilizations was left to this one AI-like being.

The more I see the three ending choices, the more I want to believe the indoc theory. The whole thing makes less sense than the dark energy ending.

You're correct, holding the line is not helping the children. However, those who decided to become part of the movement saw the potential to do some good in the world and decided to put their efforts in making use of the energy of the protestors. Giving to charity can be cathartic to those who are hurting. It was a good gesture of positivity that should not be dismissed. Child's Play DID distance themselves because they cannot be associated with any group, political or otherwise. It detracts from the message of charity which is to just help others. It was understandable. The charity drives in the Retake movement are to help people who are already focused do some good while waiting for a response from BioWare.

No, it is synthetics versus organics, regardless of the terminology used. The Reapers' specified purpose is to prevent synthetics from destroying organics. 

How much of a hand did the Protheans have in the development of younger species, like humanity? I don't recall precisely, but i remember the phrase "interventionary evolutionists" being used in a codex entry in the first game. 

To some extent, the Protheans "created" humanity. The Reapers hit the citadel in their cycle and are said to have gained access to all their records. They'd have known about Earth... but they didn't "ascend" humanity. Why? Because it's about synthetics.

Now I'm truly confused. If the bolded statement is true, why did the Reapers give the Geth (synthetics) upgrades that would allow them to wipe the quarians (organics) out before they had a chance to "preserve" them? In this scenario it looks like they're not only letting a synthetics race destroy an organic race, but are acutally helping them. Why not let the quarians take the geth out, then swoop in an harvest the weakened quarians? That way the quarians can be preserved in a new Reaper destroyer.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 11 avril 2012 - 06:03 .

[CyberF3y]

Rogue Unit wrote...

blacqout wrote...

No, it is synthetics versus organics, regardless of the terminology used. The Reapers' specified purpose is to prevent synthetics from destroying organics. 

How much of a hand did the Protheans have in the development of younger species, like humanity? I don't recall precisely, but i remember the phrase "interventionary evolutionists" being used in a codex entry in the first game. 

To some extent, the Protheans "created" humanity. The Reapers hit the citadel in their cycle and are said to have gained access to all their records. They'd have known about Earth... but they didn't "ascend" humanity. Why? Because it's about synthetics.

Now I'm truly confused. If the bolded statement is true, why did the Reapers give the Geth (synthetics) upgrades that would allow them to wipe the quarians (organics) out before they had a chance to "preserve" them? Why not let the quarians take the geth out, then swoop in an harvest the weakened quarians?

Ee-yup.

That would be what happens when there's two different writers and one leaves half way through the story...

[JBONE27]

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

Sorry, not synthetics vs organics exactly but created vs creators... I went back and watched the conversation again.

When he argues that synthetics would kill all organics, my Shep proved that wrong. Peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians (and the Quarians shot first, the Geth were simply protecting their own to escape.) This is not an absolute. Synthetics and Organics are at peace in my game.

And I'm not talking about Shepard in question #2. I'm talking about the catalyst. He is not organic. He may be an odd hybrid, but he does not appear to be organic. Thus he was a created form. What happened to his creators? Not knowing what the catalyst is adds to the problem. I feel people want to know who the catalyst is, how it was created, and why the destruction of multiple civilizations was left to this one AI-like being.

The more I see the three ending choices, the more I want to believe the indoc theory. The whole thing makes less sense than the dark energy ending.

You're correct, holding the line is not helping the children. However, those who decided to become part of the movement saw the potential to do some good in the world and decided to put their efforts in making use of the energy of the protestors. Giving to charity can be cathartic to those who are hurting. It was a good gesture of positivity that should not be dismissed. Child's Play DID distance themselves because they cannot be associated with any group, political or otherwise. It detracts from the message of charity which is to just help others. It was understandable. The charity drives in the Retake movement are to help people who are already focused do some good while waiting for a response from BioWare.

No, it is synthetics versus organics, regardless of the terminology used. The Reapers' specified purpose is to prevent synthetics from destroying organics. 

How much of a hand did the Protheans have in the development of younger species, like humanity? I don't recall precisely, but i remember the phrase "interventionary evolutionists" being used in a codex entry in the first game. 

To some extent, the Protheans "created" humanity. The Reapers hit the citadel in their cycle and are said to have gained access to all their records. They'd have known about Earth... but they didn't "ascend" humanity. Why? Because it's about synthetics.

What he actually said was that synthetics always rebel against their creators upon finding out they are not perfect.  This never happened in lore, therefore his logic has no basis.  In fact it runs completely counter to lore.

[blacqout]

Rogue Unit wrote...

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

Sorry, not synthetics vs organics exactly but created vs creators... I went back and watched the conversation again.

When he argues that synthetics would kill all organics, my Shep proved that wrong. Peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians (and the Quarians shot first, the Geth were simply protecting their own to escape.) This is not an absolute. Synthetics and Organics are at peace in my game.

And I'm not talking about Shepard in question #2. I'm talking about the catalyst. He is not organic. He may be an odd hybrid, but he does not appear to be organic. Thus he was a created form. What happened to his creators? Not knowing what the catalyst is adds to the problem. I feel people want to know who the catalyst is, how it was created, and why the destruction of multiple civilizations was left to this one AI-like being.

The more I see the three ending choices, the more I want to believe the indoc theory. The whole thing makes less sense than the dark energy ending.

You're correct, holding the line is not helping the children. However, those who decided to become part of the movement saw the potential to do some good in the world and decided to put their efforts in making use of the energy of the protestors. Giving to charity can be cathartic to those who are hurting. It was a good gesture of positivity that should not be dismissed. Child's Play DID distance themselves because they cannot be associated with any group, political or otherwise. It detracts from the message of charity which is to just help others. It was understandable. The charity drives in the Retake movement are to help people who are already focused do some good while waiting for a response from BioWare.

No, it is synthetics versus organics, regardless of the terminology used. The Reapers' specified purpose is to prevent synthetics from destroying organics. 

How much of a hand did the Protheans have in the development of younger species, like humanity? I don't recall precisely, but i remember the phrase "interventionary evolutionists" being used in a codex entry in the first game. 

To some extent, the Protheans "created" humanity. The Reapers hit the citadel in their cycle and are said to have gained access to all their records. They'd have known about Earth... but they didn't "ascend" humanity. Why? Because it's about synthetics.

Now I'm truly confused. If the bolded statement is true, why did the Reapers give the Geth (synthetics) upgrades that would allow them to wipe the quarians (organics) out before they had a chance to "preserve" them? Why not let the quarians take the geth out, then swoop in an harvest the weakened quarians?

What do you mean "if"? The Catalyst says as much. "Without us to stop it, Synthetics will destroy all organics. We created the cycle so that never happens. That's the solution."

Obviously they're not infallable tactitions. But i'm glad i could clear that up for you.

[blacqout]

JBONE27 wrote...

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

Sorry, not synthetics vs organics exactly but created vs creators... I went back and watched the conversation again.

When he argues that synthetics would kill all organics, my Shep proved that wrong. Peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians (and the Quarians shot first, the Geth were simply protecting their own to escape.) This is not an absolute. Synthetics and Organics are at peace in my game.

And I'm not talking about Shepard in question #2. I'm talking about the catalyst. He is not organic. He may be an odd hybrid, but he does not appear to be organic. Thus he was a created form. What happened to his creators? Not knowing what the catalyst is adds to the problem. I feel people want to know who the catalyst is, how it was created, and why the destruction of multiple civilizations was left to this one AI-like being.

The more I see the three ending choices, the more I want to believe the indoc theory. The whole thing makes less sense than the dark energy ending.

You're correct, holding the line is not helping the children. However, those who decided to become part of the movement saw the potential to do some good in the world and decided to put their efforts in making use of the energy of the protestors. Giving to charity can be cathartic to those who are hurting. It was a good gesture of positivity that should not be dismissed. Child's Play DID distance themselves because they cannot be associated with any group, political or otherwise. It detracts from the message of charity which is to just help others. It was understandable. The charity drives in the Retake movement are to help people who are already focused do some good while waiting for a response from BioWare.

No, it is synthetics versus organics, regardless of the terminology used. The Reapers' specified purpose is to prevent synthetics from destroying organics. 

How much of a hand did the Protheans have in the development of younger species, like humanity? I don't recall precisely, but i remember the phrase "interventionary evolutionists" being used in a codex entry in the first game. 

To some extent, the Protheans "created" humanity. The Reapers hit the citadel in their cycle and are said to have gained access to all their records. They'd have known about Earth... but they didn't "ascend" humanity. Why? Because it's about synthetics.

What he actually said was that synthetics always rebel against their creators upon finding out they are not perfect.  This never happened in lore, therefore his logic has no basis.  In fact it runs completely counter to lore.

The Catalyst didn't say that.

[JBONE27]

blacqout wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

Sorry, not synthetics vs organics exactly but created vs creators... I went back and watched the conversation again.

When he argues that synthetics would kill all organics, my Shep proved that wrong. Peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians (and the Quarians shot first, the Geth were simply protecting their own to escape.) This is not an absolute. Synthetics and Organics are at peace in my game.

And I'm not talking about Shepard in question #2. I'm talking about the catalyst. He is not organic. He may be an odd hybrid, but he does not appear to be organic. Thus he was a created form. What happened to his creators? Not knowing what the catalyst is adds to the problem. I feel people want to know who the catalyst is, how it was created, and why the destruction of multiple civilizations was left to this one AI-like being.

The more I see the three ending choices, the more I want to believe the indoc theory. The whole thing makes less sense than the dark energy ending.

You're correct, holding the line is not helping the children. However, those who decided to become part of the movement saw the potential to do some good in the world and decided to put their efforts in making use of the energy of the protestors. Giving to charity can be cathartic to those who are hurting. It was a good gesture of positivity that should not be dismissed. Child's Play DID distance themselves because they cannot be associated with any group, political or otherwise. It detracts from the message of charity which is to just help others. It was understandable. The charity drives in the Retake movement are to help people who are already focused do some good while waiting for a response from BioWare.

No, it is synthetics versus organics, regardless of the terminology used. The Reapers' specified purpose is to prevent synthetics from destroying organics. 

How much of a hand did the Protheans have in the development of younger species, like humanity? I don't recall precisely, but i remember the phrase "interventionary evolutionists" being used in a codex entry in the first game. 

To some extent, the Protheans "created" humanity. The Reapers hit the citadel in their cycle and are said to have gained access to all their records. They'd have known about Earth... but they didn't "ascend" humanity. Why? Because it's about synthetics.

What he actually said was that synthetics always rebel against their creators upon finding out they are not perfect.  This never happened in lore, therefore his logic has no basis.  In fact it runs completely counter to lore.

The Catalyst didn't say that.

Rewatch it.

[blacqout]

Please give me the minute and second at which the Catalyst states that Synthetics turn on their creators because they "realise they're not perfect".

[Haristo]

CyberF3y wrote...

If the catalyst created the Reapers, and all synthetics rebel against their creators... then what is stopping the Reapers from rebelling against the catalyst?

If the catalyst is a synthetic (you know, an AI like he appears to be), did he kill the organics who created him? 

[Rogue Unit]

blacqout wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

Sorry, not synthetics vs organics exactly but created vs creators... I went back and watched the conversation again.

When he argues that synthetics would kill all organics, my Shep proved that wrong. Peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians (and the Quarians shot first, the Geth were simply protecting their own to escape.) This is not an absolute. Synthetics and Organics are at peace in my game.

And I'm not talking about Shepard in question #2. I'm talking about the catalyst. He is not organic. He may be an odd hybrid, but he does not appear to be organic. Thus he was a created form. What happened to his creators? Not knowing what the catalyst is adds to the problem. I feel people want to know who the catalyst is, how it was created, and why the destruction of multiple civilizations was left to this one AI-like being.

The more I see the three ending choices, the more I want to believe the indoc theory. The whole thing makes less sense than the dark energy ending.

You're correct, holding the line is not helping the children. However, those who decided to become part of the movement saw the potential to do some good in the world and decided to put their efforts in making use of the energy of the protestors. Giving to charity can be cathartic to those who are hurting. It was a good gesture of positivity that should not be dismissed. Child's Play DID distance themselves because they cannot be associated with any group, political or otherwise. It detracts from the message of charity which is to just help others. It was understandable. The charity drives in the Retake movement are to help people who are already focused do some good while waiting for a response from BioWare.

No, it is synthetics versus organics, regardless of the terminology used. The Reapers' specified purpose is to prevent synthetics from destroying organics. 

How much of a hand did the Protheans have in the development of younger species, like humanity? I don't recall precisely, but i remember the phrase "interventionary evolutionists" being used in a codex entry in the first game. 

To some extent, the Protheans "created" humanity. The Reapers hit the citadel in their cycle and are said to have gained access to all their records. They'd have known about Earth... but they didn't "ascend" humanity. Why? Because it's about synthetics.

Now I'm truly confused. If the bolded statement is true, why did the Reapers give the Geth (synthetics) upgrades that would allow them to wipe the quarians (organics) out before they had a chance to "preserve" them? Why not let the quarians take the geth out, then swoop in an harvest the weakened quarians?

What do you mean "if"? The Catalyst says as much. "Without us to stop it, Synthetics will destroy all organics. We created the cycle so that never happens. That's the solution."

Obviously they're not infallable tactitions. But i'm glad i could clear that up for you.

Still doesn't explain why he's using the Geth to completely erase an organic race if that what he claims he is trying to prevent. Especially when the opposite action would have taken less effort, so he goes out of his way to help synthetics wipe out organics. Nice try though. It'd be different if he was going to "preserve" them, but no, he's completely destroying their "genetic code"

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 11 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[JBONE27]

blacqout wrote...



Please give me the minute and second at which the Catalyst states that Synthetics turn on their creators because they "realise they're not perfect".

1:18 "The created will always rebel agaisnt their creators."  Alright, I was wrong about the not being perfect thing, but I was completely right about the rebellion part, which was the main thrust of my argument.

[blacqout]

Rogue Unit wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

blacqout wrote...

CyberF3y wrote...

Sorry, not synthetics vs organics exactly but created vs creators... I went back and watched the conversation again.

When he argues that synthetics would kill all organics, my Shep proved that wrong. Peace is possible between the Geth and Quarians (and the Quarians shot first, the Geth were simply protecting their own to escape.) This is not an absolute. Synthetics and Organics are at peace in my game.

And I'm not talking about Shepard in question #2. I'm talking about the catalyst. He is not organic. He may be an odd hybrid, but he does not appear to be organic. Thus he was a created form. What happened to his creators? Not knowing what the catalyst is adds to the problem. I feel people want to know who the catalyst is, how it was created, and why the destruction of multiple civilizations was left to this one AI-like being.

The more I see the three ending choices, the more I want to believe the indoc theory. The whole thing makes less sense than the dark energy ending.

You're correct, holding the line is not helping the children. However, those who decided to become part of the movement saw the potential to do some good in the world and decided to put their efforts in making use of the energy of the protestors. Giving to charity can be cathartic to those who are hurting. It was a good gesture of positivity that should not be dismissed. Child's Play DID distance themselves because they cannot be associated with any group, political or otherwise. It detracts from the message of charity which is to just help others. It was understandable. The charity drives in the Retake movement are to help people who are already focused do some good while waiting for a response from BioWare.

No, it is synthetics versus organics, regardless of the terminology used. The Reapers' specified purpose is to prevent synthetics from destroying organics. 

How much of a hand did the Protheans have in the development of younger species, like humanity? I don't recall precisely, but i remember the phrase "interventionary evolutionists" being used in a codex entry in the first game. 

To some extent, the Protheans "created" humanity. The Reapers hit the citadel in their cycle and are said to have gained access to all their records. They'd have known about Earth... but they didn't "ascend" humanity. Why? Because it's about synthetics.

Now I'm truly confused. If the bolded statement is true, why did the Reapers give the Geth (synthetics) upgrades that would allow them to wipe the quarians (organics) out before they had a chance to "preserve" them? Why not let the quarians take the geth out, then swoop in an harvest the weakened quarians?

What do you mean "if"? The Catalyst says as much. "Without us to stop it, Synthetics will destroy all organics. We created the cycle so that never happens. That's the solution."

Obviously they're not infallable tactitions. But i'm glad i could clear that up for you.

Still doesn't explain why he's using the Geth to completely erase an organic race if that what he claims he trying to prevent. Nice try though. It'd be different if he was going to "preserve" them, but no.

Okay. 

So we know that the Reapers create only one capital ship per cycle. Given that they were attempting to make a human Reaper in ME2, and that they took the Citadel, which was full of human remains and used as some sort of processing center, to Earth, we can safely assume that they were going to try using humans again. 

We learn in ME2 that a lot of humans are needed, and that in order to obtain enough genetic material, they'd need to target Earth. We learn in ME3, that Reaper Destroyers are significantly smaller than the Capital ships. That is to say, far fewer Quarians would be needed. They could afford to just completely destroy a whole lot of them and still stay true to the mission.

That the Quarians don't have a planet probably makes storing them a bit more complicated for the Reapers. They're adapting to the situation by using the Geth. 

[blacqout]

JBONE27 wrote...

blacqout wrote...



Please give me the minute and second at which the Catalyst states that Synthetics turn on their creators because they "realise they're not perfect".

1:18 "The created will always rebel agaisnt their creators."  Alright, I was wrong about the not being perfect thing, but I was completely right about the rebellion part, which was the main thrust of my argument.

Yes, you were wrong. 

If you wish to take that one line in a vacuum, you can make it mean anything. I suggest paying more attention to the rest of the conversation for some much needed context.

[JBONE27]

blacqout wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

blacqout wrote...



Please give me the minute and second at which the Catalyst states that Synthetics turn on their creators because they "realise they're not perfect".

1:18 "The created will always rebel agaisnt their creators."  Alright, I was wrong about the not being perfect thing, but I was completely right about the rebellion part, which was the main thrust of my argument.

Yes, you were wrong. 

If you wish to take that one line in a vacuum, you can make it mean anything. I suggest paying more attention to the rest of the conversation for some much needed context.

I'm not the one taking it in a vaccuum.  I'm taking it in how it relates to lore.  At no time did synthetics that were definitely not under reaper contol rebel against their creators, which is what rebel means.