149 réponses à ce sujet

[GardenSnake]

Making a sequel based on Origins would solve most of their problems IMO. Personally, Gaider already confirmed a voiced PC for DA3 so I'm only going to rent it. Yes, that's how strongly I feel about the issue. This is coming from a guy who adores al three ME games (other than the ending). Voiced PCs can and do belong in some rpgs, just not DA if you ask me.

Will it succeed? Depends if they realize streamlining it isn't the way to go.

[Tommyspa]

franciscoamell wrote...

Why do people dislike Voiced Protagonists? The Warden felt a little bit off in my opinion. He/she talked too little to be the most important person of his/her time.

Voiced PC is like a fashion faux pas in role-playing game community, it rarely has anything to due with the quality of it, just its mere existance.

[naughty99]

franciscoamell wrote...

Why do people dislike Voiced Protagonists? The Warden felt a little bit off in my opinion. He/she talked too little to be the most important person of his/her time.

Without a voiced protagonist, the developers have a lot more flexibility to make interesting dialogue choices for the PC. Also you have more flexibility to customize your character.

[GodWood]

franciscoamell wrote...
Why do people dislike Voiced Protagonists? The Warden felt a little bit off in my opinion. He/she talked too little to be the most important person of his/her time.

It limits roleplaying opportunities substantially.

[Tchos]

franciscoamell wrote...
Should the protagonist be silent, all other characters needed to be silent as well, that'd make some more sense.

If that results in more and varied dialogue branches, I'd be all for that.

Modifié par Tchos, 13 avril 2012 - 12:56 .

[RedArmyShogun]

Tommyspa wrote...

franciscoamell wrote...

Why do people dislike Voiced Protagonists? The Warden felt a little bit off in my opinion. He/she talked too little to be the most important person of his/her time.

Voiced PC is like a fashion faux pas in role-playing game community, it rarely has anything to due with the quality of it, just its mere existance.

Debateable. Just like what RPG means. I've known plenty of RPG'ers that started with JRPG's or old school named protag, titles that hate when a game doesn't have them.

[chunkyman]

A silent protagonist is needed for me to roleplay. I could have maybe managed to roleplay if there was full-text dialogue, but DA2 used the paraphrase system. DA:O allowed me to imagine the tone my character used (which is extremely important in having his personality match the character you are trying to create), and allowed me to see the dialogue options beforehand so I could make an informed decision on what that character would choose based upon his personality and personal motivations.

Voiced PC's destroyed the ability to imagine a line of text in varying tones, meaning I can only roleplay characters with personalities that match whatever tone the voice actor used. The useless paraphrase system also made it impossible to make informed choices based upon what my character would have said.

DA:O's dialogue system facilitated wonderful roleplaying, allowing me to replay the game over 15 times with unique characters every time. DA2's dialogue system is a ****ty guessing game that should be put in a museum as a warning from history.

[Tommyspa]

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

franciscoamell wrote...

Why do people dislike Voiced Protagonists? The Warden felt a little bit off in my opinion. He/she talked too little to be the most important person of his/her time.

Voiced PC is like a fashion faux pas in role-playing game community, it rarely has anything to due with the quality of it, just its mere existance.

Debateable. Just like what RPG means. I've known plenty of RPG'ers that started with JRPG's or old school named protag, titles that hate when a game doesn't have them.

Debateable sure, does not mean it needs to be debated here. You know which sect I meant.

Modifié par Tommyspa, 13 avril 2012 - 02:03 .

[Sajji]

There isn't a chance in the world Dragon Age 3 will not have a voiced pc. Also, don't be shocked if BioWare does a TES and call the game Dragon Age 3: Subtitle.

This game will be talked up and it'll show supposedly 'cool new' things like how companions can be managed, but it'll be like DAO except much more streamlined...and of course we know what that is code for.

I agree with Slimgrin on this franchise having zero identity...DAO was great but I honestly, genuine couldn't care less about Dragon Age anymore. I find it entertaining the massacre BioWare is doing to their IPs and don't really care, because they truly do not listen

[SOLID_EVEREST]

Sajji wrote...

There isn't a chance in the world Dragon Age 3 will not have a voiced pc. Also, don't be shocked if BioWare does a TES and call the game Dragon Age 3: Subtitle.

This game will be talked up and it'll show supposedly 'cool new' things like how companions can be managed, but it'll be like DAO except much more streamlined...and of course we know what that is code for.

I agree with Slimgrin on this franchise having zero identity...DAO was great but I honestly, genuine couldn't care less about Dragon Age anymore. I find it entertaining the massacre BioWare is doing to their IPs and don't really care, because they truly do not listen

You are right on with that sentiment. If they would just listen to what fans want, a true sequel to Origins, they would have an easy success. BioWare won't see the CoD numbers, if there ever was a chance, but at the same time, they won't see the fan backlash that Dragon Age: 2 had caused. I don't understand why they HAVE to take Dragon Age the route of Mass Effect with voiced, pre-determined protagonists... The Origin's system was very much loved by the fans, from what the forums tell me at least.

[Joy Divison]

I'm not holding my breath.

[Elhanan]

It is the game I look forward to the most this year; hope sales and quality are both stellar.

[Eternal Phoenix]

franciscoamell wrote...

Why do people dislike Voiced Protagonists? The Warden felt a little bit off in my opinion. He/she talked too little to be the most important person of his/her time.

That's one of the problems I had with some of the dialogue in Origins and some of the dialogue were but simple questions. I would have preferred more dialogue which really said a statement. That being said, Origins did contain some great PC dialogue.

The problem I have with voiced protagonist isn't really behind the fact that they are voiced but rather that they have auto-dialogue and sometimes say things you don't want them to say. The dialogue wheel in Bioware games has a paraphase system which sometimes doesn't represent what the wording says. I remember in Mass Effect I said to some guy that he deserved to die and what does Shepard say? He says:

"I'LL KILL YOU AND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY! THEN I'LL RESURRECT YOU ALL OF YOU AND KILL YOU ALL OVER AGAIN!"

Okay he didn't say that but he did pull out his gun to shoot the guy and that's what he did against my wishes. In the end I just went with it because the guy he shot technically did deserve it. The exact wording on the dialogue wheel was "You deserve to die" and I didn't expect Shepard to pull out his gun and kill the guy when I chose this dialogue wheel. Normally actions are presented in the dialogue wheel such as Lie or Kill him/her. There's plenty of other examples where Shepard will say or so something which you don't expect him or her to do or say.

The dialogue wheel problem can easily be fixed through simply with boxes appearing with the full text akin to Deus Ex when you highlight your option:

 

Adam normally says everything to the exact words (sometimes a few words are missed out but that's no biggie because he's pretty much saying everything you wanted him to) and most of the dialogue options have him saying a lot. 

Bioware could learn from this system here and add the text boxes with the full dialogue in whenever you scroll over an option on the dialogue wheel. At the very least they could add it in as an optional feature since people keep complaining about the system. If Dragon Age 3 contains such a system then I'd have no problem with the dialogue wheel so long as I know exactly what my character is saying.

Deus Ex: HR had amazing conversations which had tension and excitement. I don't get any of this from Mass Effect or Dragon Age 2. Bioware need to up their game if they are trying to down the route of "cinematic" dialogue because plenty of other games are doing it better. Hell the image pictured above is simply Adam arguing with his boss and the scene was exicting and had tension. I still remember most of the dialogue scenes from Deus Ex: HR whereas I don't remember many from Dragon Age 2.

Adam also normally displayed emotion within his voice. Hawke didn't. Even an aggressive Hawke wasn't that aggressive in conversations. I can't even remember my Hawke ever shouting. You would have thought that an aggressive Hawke would act like a Renegade Shepard but also shout at people or raise his/her voice but we just get a guy who threatens or insults people with a mildy assertive voice.

Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect actually feel very old with their dialogue wheels simply because dialogues never feel that heated and everyone just stands about crossing their arms or widly throwing their arms about. The dialogue wheel isn't that innovative and isn't enough to give things a more fresh feel.

Origins on the otherhand did contain tension and excitement within dialogue. Alistair shouting at you and you being able to argue back, persuade him or insult him or apologize was a memorable scenario and what about the Connor an Arlessa Isolde scenario? I remember them. I remember nothing from Dragon Age 2 save for the dialogue with Orinoco and Meredith just before Anders comes out of the closet and I only remember said scenario due to the story.

Don't get me started about how Shepard is the god of stoicism.

Shepard: "I'm very upset."
Revan: "You don't sound like it."
The Warden: "Why would he? Don't you know that The Shepard is the god of stoicism?"
Shepard: "It's just Shepard actually. I ain't part of any order like you are Warden."
The Warden: "Ahem. It's The Grey Warden actually..."
Shepard: "I don't really care what your title is! I'm upset!"
Hero: "Man! Even when he's angry he doesn't sound angry."

*Everyone suddenly turns around to look at the new hero who had just entered the tavern. It was The Hero of Neverwinter and everyone was shocked and surprised to see him.*

Hawke: "Huh? The Hero of Neverwinter! You're a new arrival to this establishment! Where have you been all this time?!"
Hero of Neverwinter: "I was lost for 10 years after Bioware wrote me out of the two expansions. If I ever see the hero who replaced me I'll tear his/her head from her/his body!"
Hawke: "Well now that you're here should we expect The Baalspawn? He/she still hasn't come into this tavern despite being the First Protagonist."
The Warden: "Nah. He/she will be too busy revisting Baldur's Gate later this year."
Hawke: "Oh yeah! I almost forgot about that! Back to the card game then?"
The Warden: "You know it!"
Revan: "Hero of Neverwinter! Come and join us! Let us show these youngsters whose boss!"

End page.

--- Tales from The Lost Protagonist Tavern Page 81

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 13 avril 2012 - 04:25 .

[Addai]

franciscoamell wrote...

Should the protagonist be silent, all other characters needed to be silent as well, that'd make some more sense.

Not for me.  I'm hearing my own character's voice in my head.  To have some actor placed between me and my character takes me out of the roleplay entirely.  It might as well be a set character, where you can at least do some deeper characterization and back story.

[Sajji]

Deus Ex: Human Revolution's loot system took Mass Effect 3's loot system out behind the woodshed and smacked it around pretty hard. DEHR looting was pretty fun...and they didn't treat you like a moron.

Ditto level design. Pure annihilation.

Sorry for the randomness...saw a DEHR post and I wanted to get that out.

Modifié par Sajji, 13 avril 2012 - 05:59 .

[commanderVal]

Elton John is dead wrote...

^Yeah. Oghren has to come back. He's the fan favorite and needs to be in every DA game. Period.

Only Oghren could inspire awesome art such as this:

 
 

 
 
 
  

Just Google "Oghren the fan favourite" and go to Google images for more awesome pics!

I laughed until I cried! :lol:Quite brilliant and surprisingly, this is part of the problem. Half baked companions who  go to extremes don't help the games at all. Awakening almost ruined Oghren after he endeared himself to the fanbase with his speech at Denerim's gate. They turned Alistair into a clown- he had at least a semblance of  maturity under all the clowning in Origins. Anders in Awakening was sort of an Alistair replacement and I think his  character was the only one that went through any credible development in DA2. Justice was, after all a little extreme even in Awakening. It made sense that he warped Anders into that thingie when they.. err.. joined..

Anyway, DA3's success will depend on many things and well written companions will factor quite heavily. I hope they do away with all the superficial fan placating devices like needlessly varying areas and weather [think Awakening intro after people complained about lack of weather in Origins], and instead focus on making the plot and companions memorable. Not to mean that varying weather and areas would be bad- as long as they make sense. Give us choices that show effects even if these choices don't count in the hundreds. As long as causality is maintained, the fans should be considerably satisfied. I say should be because there will always be someone whining over something.

And if they are so intent on putting in epic weapons and armour, give these items a history. Or time to forge their own history. Starfang was just eye candy and vigilance never really made enough of an impact to justify its hype, making it even better eye candy but with less time to enjoy it. If you go around carrying Excalibur on your waist,  you're bound to get some comments from people you speak to. Heck! A brand could go to the shaperate with Aeducan's Maul and they wouldn't even say a word. These are the only things I want to see changed in gameplay from the Origins model. If equipment are going to be important to the game, make them important instead of  simply saying they will be important.

I suppose we will just have to wait and see. I'm guessing we're going to Orlais and will get to recruit a seeker if we choose to from the few comments I've heard from Laidlaw. I wonder if we'll get to become the next Divine?  Exalted March agaist ALL the people!

Modifié par commanderVal, 13 avril 2012 - 08:44 .

[Vaern Sul]

Oh yes, even with the CASIE aug, Human Revolution's "Dialogue Boss Battles" were very exciting. I too remember them all, and since I had chosen not to follow the game too closely (damn spoilers), I was actually surprised by the first.

But yeah, you'd think that since Bioware is branding itself the master studio of dialogue and story, it wouldn't be outshined so quickly by newcomers like Eidos Montreal and CDProjektRed.

That's why (look how I segued on topic ! Brilliant !) I'm not holding my breath for DA3. The setting of DA:O was good, not more, and with DA2 I lost any reason I had to care. Bioware has proven they don't want to do anything risky (read : original) anymore.

Moreover, they really don't have the monopoly on good writing anymore. DX:HR's story was more thought-provoking, the 2 witchers games' were more deeper and original, imho. Can't say for Obsidian as their later settings aren't inspiring to me (I find no appeal in post-apoc or modern-spy stories, just personal taste.) but Mask of the Betrayer was a damn gem.
And even outside of the rpg sphere, games are just becoming more daring with their stories, if only just to add some flavor : Look at indie games like Amnesia : The Dark descent, Journey or To the Moon. Their enjoyment rely heavily on your immersion and thus your interest in the setting and/or plot.
Hell, look at the damn Assassin's Creed series. The gameplay innovations from II to brotherhood and brotherhood to revelation were far from groundbreaking, but these games sold pretty damn well. Why ? Because people cared for the characters, story and setting as much as they cared for the gameplay.

tl;dr : Bioware isn't the only one to make good stories anymore, and now more and more of their former fans, myself included, are looking somewhere else to get their story fix, and they don't care about Bioware as much as they used to.

So the odds are against DA3, but since we don't know anything solid about it, whether it will succeed or not is mostly speculation. But we can infer from recent experience that the chances of it being stellar are rather low.

also

 I find it entertaining the massacre BioWare is doing to their IPs and don't really care, because they truly do not listen

Artistic Integrity.

Modifié par Vaern Sul, 13 avril 2012 - 05:59 .

[JordaJ320]

jollyorigins wrote...

After looking at the pax interview for DA3, I highly doubt it;

-No reusing maps?
-Decisions that matter?
-Equipment for party members?

Thank you for those basic features.

Lol, i could not have said that better

[MingWolf]

I'm hopeful that DA3 will succeed, but from what little bits and pieces I've read into the development of the game, the direction the game is taking doesn't seem too promising in appeal.

I mean, if they are looking at other games such as Skyrim, and trying to blend that with various aspects of DA2 and DA:O, it's going to end up like a salad. Granted, some salads are good, but it really depends on what you mix into it. My only problems is that they are borrowing too much from the successes of other games in the hopes of creating another successful game, when their priorities should be more focused on something a little more grounded. Everything from the possible inclusion of multiplayer (they probably looked to ME3 on this, heh), bringing back cameos (which, imo made DA2 somewhat revolting since they don't fit), basing the story on the fanatical templar vs. mages theme, are all things that are making this future release of a game seem less and less appealing.

I hope it turns out great, but the ideas they've thrown out have been a bit preposterous. Not very promising.

As far as sales go, I am guessing it will not be anything as glamorous as DA2 and ME3 unless DA3 can find it's appeal, since those games built on the hype of their predecessors in my opinion.

[Kronner]

I'd not expect much. DA2 was a disaster and a very poor game with shallow story.

[zeypher]

But thats the problem. Their stories are now in shambles. DA2 was supposed to be about mage templar, but for majority of the game it the issue was side stepped. This can also be seen in ME3.

Reapers supposed to be main issue, but again they get side stepped and majority of the game we spend fighting cerberus. Me3's plot failure is because the overall plot was not advanced at all in ME2. Some issues like either cerberus or geth/quarian conflict should have been resolved in 2.

Looking at the last 2 games, in terms of story i do not expect anything good.

[MingWolf]

Outside of how successful DA3 will be, I don't think I can play another Mages vs. Templar game. The whole theme and story is way too fanatical and ideological for my taste.

Modifié par MingWolf, 13 avril 2012 - 08:58 .