107 réponses à ce sujet

[Teredan]

Much debated in which direction DA3 combat should swing, some want it to be more like DA2 combat some want it more like DA:O and some want it to be a mix between the two.

So I want to start and indepht discussion about what DA3 combat should/could maybe be like.
But before I start I have to go on a tangent and discuss what I think really good combat should feel like.

I think optimal combat should put the player into the "flow state", for those who don't know what that is google Mihály Csíkszentmihályi.
Good examples of what kind of games achieve this extremly well would be the blizzard games.
Even the very hectic Starcraft 2 establishes to be a very "flowy" game once you get the bare basics down.
Or even better Diablo 2 and 3(at least from my beta experiences) achieve this very succesfully.
The God of War series and many games of the same genre do this also very well (Devil May Cry, Bayonetta).

So how do they achieve this? Well I'm no designer and the answer to this varies from game to game anyway but a result of it is that there is a certain fluidity between what you see on screen and what you do.
Also pls don't misunderstand I'm not saying that DA combat should be like in these games.

So after talking about what optimal combat should do let's look at what optimal DA combat should be like (at least from my perspective).
I'd love for DA combat to become very tactical, maybe almost like in strategy games but being more fluid at the same time. Because I think no one can deny without pink glasses that DA:O combat was extremely clunky.

But why is that. I think one of the main reasons is that it was very unresponsive and many DA:O lovers may or may not have ignored that they fixed that in DA2 being clouded by the way to exaggerated animations.
So yeah keep the DA2 responsiveness go a different direction with the animation.

Another thing that I feel like makes DA a very unflowing game is the necessity between switching between party members or rather the way it is represented. Pause, Switch, Command, Pause, Switch, Command did not create a very flowing experience for me in DA:O. Now on the other side of the spectrum DA2 where I didn't need to switch much at all or the way ME does it without switching, isn't to my liking either due it cutting the strategic part out.
So that's kind of a design challenge for which I don't have and answer for.

I have many more points but before this becomes a monster post(maybe to late?) that no one will read I'll let you guys digest this and throw some of your thoughts in.

[cJohnOne]

I think the Combat is great in both games and flows fine. I'd keep the shuffle shuffle hit from DAO and add the things happen when you push a button from DA2.

[Pasquale1234]

cJohnOne wrote...

I think the Combat is great in both games and flows fine. I'd keep the shuffle shuffle hit from DAO and add the things happen when you push a button from DA2.

I liked the slower-paced combat in DAO because I could actually play full-party combat.  The hyperspeed combat of DA2 made it pretty much impossible to control the entire party without constantly pausing.

What is the point of having animated combat if you have to constantly pause to issue commands?

I'm hoping they either slow it back down to DAO speed or provide some UI control (like a slider) to allow players to adjust the combat speed.

ETA:

Teredan wrote...
But why is that. I think one of the main reasons is that it was very unresponsive and many DA:O lovers may or may not have ignored that they fixed that in DA2 being clouded by the way to exaggerated animations.
So yeah keep the DA2 responsiveness go a different direction with the animation.

Except that DAO was much more responsive than DA2.

When you issue a command in DAO, the character will pretty much execute it right way.  With DA2, you have to wait until the character has finished some animation sequence before it will do anything else.  This is another reason why it is more difficult to control the entire party in DA2 - you can't interrupt what the characters are doing until they are finished.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 11 avril 2012 - 02:19 .

[kingjezza]

The combat was probably the main reason I couldn't finish DA2, it was just mind numbingly tedious. By act 3 I was agreeing with Hepler with her skip combat button.

Personally I don't believe it was any more fluid or less clunky than Origins either, just faster. Never once put any thought into a combat situation, it was basically just a hack fest death race. Give me shuffling into position over the childish nonsense combat animations we got in DA2.

I have little hope it'll be any better in DA3 if the same creative team are responsible for the game.

[Realmzmaster]

I like both combat systems. I found DA2 to be more responsive and realistic. If the character is attacking it should take time for that character to respond to any other command. If you are swinging a sword at the enemy there is not way to stop the swing and drink a potion.

No I do not like shuffling into position that is not realistic or how people move. A rogue should be far more fluid than what we saw in DAO. The rogue should not be getting pounded on just because the rogue is moving into position for a backstab.

As far as controlling the party in both games I had no problem. YMMV. I played BG 1 & 2 and the speed in those games is closer to DA2 than DAo. DAO is actually slower. Bioware games are realtime with pause and comes with a tactics screen. I set up the basic tactics for each companion. I can take full party control or let each companion run their script while I run the PC. I can switch off to another companion and let the PC run its script. I did that in both DAO and DA2.
But, YMMV.
I mold their tactics to fit my playing style.

[kingjezza]

Wait, you actually think DA2 is more realistic in terms of combat?

If you are going to pick out shuffling as being unrealistic for a rogue then you might want to mention the complete lack of realism when it comes to the DA2 rogues, at least the laws of physics aren't ignored in Origins.

[Pasquale1234]

Realmzmaster wrote...

As far as controlling the party in both games I had no problem. YMMV. I played BG 1 & 2 and the speed in those games is closer to DA2 than DAo. DAO is actually slower. Bioware games are realtime with pause and comes with a tactics screen. I set up the basic tactics for each companion. I can take full party control or let each companion run their script while I run the PC. I can switch off to another companion and let the PC run its script. I did that in both DAO and DA2.
But, YMMV.
I mold their tactics to fit my playing style.

I played both DA games on PS3, not PC - and the DAO combat is slow enough that it is possible to switch between party members to issue commands in real time, without needing to pause.  If you can manually control all 4 party members in DA2 in real time without pausing, more power to you.

[philippe willaume]

For me ideally
We should be able to plan before the combat and using dialog command for target designation
So the combat should feel like the sacred ashes video.

In DA:O I paused quite a lot and in DA:2 I almost did not pause at all.
I preferred DA:O combat by far. I had more party member interaction in ME1,2 or 3 than I had in DA:2

There are several reason for that
To be fair the tactical script in DA:2 is much easier to use than in DA:0, so you can leave the companion to their own device.
As well DA:2 forces you to use ultimate build so the combat end up being less tedious and slightly less repetitive, but is over quickly and there is nothing that a quick potion won’t fix. Beside the character that you want to contol is always in the middle of some animation and will only do what you ask of him when he is finished, that is really irritating especially when you want to take advantage of an effect. So basically controlling the party members is not worth the effort.


In DA:0 you could play sub-optimal build so who does what, when and from where mattered much more than in DA:2 and potion where not that easily available.
To be fair, after talking to people that liked DA2 combat better, I have to say that playing a mage or with two mages in the group the combat is long and repetitive in DA:0 as well.

In both game difficulty does not really means anything, in DA:0 when you are used to pause nightmare is not really a problem. And in DA:2 with ultimate build nightmare only makes the boss fight long and painful with more potion gulping and more kiting.


I am quite happy with the pause to issue order, ideally that would be better done via a dialogue command that is linked to the tactics (Ie you could map that dialogue to that tactical slot in game).
A way to designate target and location (on map or minimap) to companion before the fight would be great.

I would join Realmzmaster in saying that the rogue should be more mobile and always seek the back of the opponents and it was quite painful to watch in DA:0 luckily you could use anyone as archer.
But globally I find the animation of DA:2 too cartoonish and much less appropriate for the settings

For combat itself, I think that cross-class and same class combo should be more important and somewhat more fluid and more interactive. The one in DA:O were easier to use.

Phil

[Realmzmaster]

kingjezza wrote...

Wait, you actually think DA2 is more realistic in terms of combat?

If you are going to pick out shuffling as being unrealistic for a rogue then you might want to mention the complete lack of realism when it comes to the DA2 rogues, at least the laws of physics aren't ignored in Origins.

If you want to talk about animations. The over the top animations in DA2 are actually used in a real martial art. The animations seem to be  patterned after Monkey Style Kung Fu which has been practiced for many years and makes use of the straight sword, boardsword, staff and iron ring. It is also known for its acrobatic movements which include side flips, back flips,spinning kicks and strikes. So no it does not defy the laws of physics because people actually practice it..

[xkg]

Realmzmaster wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Wait, you actually think DA2 is more realistic in terms of combat?

If you are going to pick out shuffling as being unrealistic for a rogue then you might want to mention the complete lack of realism when it comes to the DA2 rogues, at least the laws of physics aren't ignored in Origins.

If you want to talk about animations. The over the top animations in DA2 are actually used in a real martial art. The animations seem to be  patterned after Monkey Style Kung Fu which has been practiced for many years and makes use of the straight sword, boardsword, staff and iron ring. It is also known for its acrobatic movements which include side flips, back flips,spinning kicks and strikes. So no it does not defy the laws of physics because people actually practice it..

What about spin kincking the flask ? Teleportation ? Do they practice those elements too ?
Now tell me it is not over the top.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

If you want to talk about animations. The over the top animations in DA2 are actually used in a real martial art.

Not while weilding weapons that outweigh their user, they're not. 

[Realmzmaster]

xkg wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Wait, you actually think DA2 is more realistic in terms of combat?

If you are going to pick out shuffling as being unrealistic for a rogue then you might want to mention the complete lack of realism when it comes to the DA2 rogues, at least the laws of physics aren't ignored in Origins.

If you want to talk about animations. The over the top animations in DA2 are actually used in a real martial art. The animations seem to be  patterned after Monkey Style Kung Fu which has been practiced for many years and makes use of the straight sword, boardsword, staff and iron ring. It is also known for its acrobatic movements which include side flips, back flips,spinning kicks and strikes. So no it does not defy the laws of physics because people actually practice it..

What about spin kincking the flask ? Teleportation ? Do they practice those elements too ?
Now tell me it is not over the top.

No actually they spin kick a sword with accurracy as part of their training. A flask would not be a problem. Teleportation? No they use a smoke bomb to conceal movement while moving into position. Still not over the top.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 11 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[xkg]

Realmzmaster wrote...

xkg wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Wait, you actually think DA2 is more realistic in terms of combat?

If you are going to pick out shuffling as being unrealistic for a rogue then you might want to mention the complete lack of realism when it comes to the DA2 rogues, at least the laws of physics aren't ignored in Origins.

If you want to talk about animations. The over the top animations in DA2 are actually used in a real martial art. The animations seem to be  patterned after Monkey Style Kung Fu which has been practiced for many years and makes use of the straight sword, boardsword, staff and iron ring. It is also known for its acrobatic movements which include side flips, back flips,spinning kicks and strikes. So no it does not defy the laws of physics because people actually practice it..

What about spin kincking the flask ? Teleportation ? Do they practice those elements too ?
Now tell me it is not over the top.

No actually they spin kick a sword with accurracy as part of their training. A flask would not be a problem. Teleportation? No they use a smoke bomb to conceal movement while moving into position.

Spin kick sword ? Do you have any link to video or maybe some description of this technique. Somehow I don't belive...

And about teleportation ... I thought we had discussed it already. It is instant teleportation (no delay) at long distances, bypasing any barriers on its way. Here it is if you don't remember:
http://social.biowar...32569/1#8834637

Modifié par xkg, 11 avril 2012 - 08:58 .

[Anomaly-]

Realmzmaster wrote...
So no it does not defy the laws of physics because people actually practice it..

Solely for demonstration purposes. It's entirely impractical in real combat, and if they ever tried it there they wouldn't have much success.

[bEVEsthda]

Realmzmaster wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Wait, you actually think DA2 is more realistic in terms of combat?

If you are going to pick out shuffling as being unrealistic for a rogue then you might want to mention the complete lack of realism when it comes to the DA2 rogues, at least the laws of physics aren't ignored in Origins.

If you want to talk about animations. The over the top animations in DA2 are actually used in a real martial art. The animations seem to be  patterned after Monkey Style Kung Fu which has been practiced for many years and makes use of the straight sword, boardsword, staff and iron ring. It is also known for its acrobatic movements which include side flips, back flips,spinning kicks and strikes. So no it does not defy the laws of physics because people actually practice it..

Depends what you mean by "real martial art". I have to agree that sports and training which have closer ties to Chinese opera than real fighting are martial arts. But my point is, it's not real fighting. I'm for instance sooo certain that backflip has never been used in real fighting, at least not to anything but immediate disaster.

But sure, it's viable to put game combat on the same scene as Chinese opera and Hong Kong movies, it's done all the time. But I think that is exactly what some are protesting. They want more realistic fighting.

Think I want that too.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

If you want to talk about animations. The over the top animations in DA2 are actually used in a real martial art.

Not while weilding weapons that outweigh their user, they're not. 

I do not think the daggers weigh anywhere near a person's weight. In fact the I believe the heaviest weapon in DAO is about 9 lbs. I could be wrong.

[Realmzmaster]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Wait, you actually think DA2 is more realistic in terms of combat?

If you are going to pick out shuffling as being unrealistic for a rogue then you might want to mention the complete lack of realism when it comes to the DA2 rogues, at least the laws of physics aren't ignored in Origins.

If you want to talk about animations. The over the top animations in DA2 are actually used in a real martial art. The animations seem to be  patterned after Monkey Style Kung Fu which has been practiced for many years and makes use of the straight sword, boardsword, staff and iron ring. It is also known for its acrobatic movements which include side flips, back flips,spinning kicks and strikes. So no it does not defy the laws of physics because people actually practice it..

Depends what you mean by "real martial art". I have to agree that sports and training which have closer ties to Chinese opera than real fighting are martial arts. But my point is, it's not real fighting. I'm for instance sooo certain that backflip has never been used in real fighting, at least not to anything but immediate disaster.

But sure, it's viable to put game combat on the same scene as Chinese opera and Hong Kong movies, it's done all the time. But I think that is exactly what some are protesting. They want more realistic fighting.

Think I want that too.

What is you definition of realistic fighting? Is a roundhouse kick to the head unrealistic or a spinning hook kick to the chest? What about savate which is an amalgam of street figting technigues used in France. Techniques that were used in actual combat. Sailors from the port of Marseille developed a street fighting style involving high kicks and slaps which was used in combat on ships. This lead to the modern day savate. I assume that would be considered realistic.

[Thori]

Some of you talk about easier tactic system in DA2, but every time I would order my tank to protect the vulnerable team member, he would disobey. Many tactical orders I would give to my team members in DA2 would be disobeyed. That never happened in DAO. If I told Sten to protect Wynne he would stand beside her even if that means only Zevran and I are fighting the bulk of the enemy. And DA2 animations as "real martial arts" is really unnecessary.

I admit, rogue class had more realistic animations in DA2 than other classes, but even those were overdone. Rogue jumping on an enemy 50ft away isn't seen on Olympics man. I doubt Shaolyn (or something like that, I forgot) monks can do that. I doubt Chuck Norris can do that! Wait... no, sorry. Only Chuck Norris can do it.

But, I also admit that DAO combat wasn't perfect. Companions with drawn weapons would walk slow, melee rogues were in need of constant attention. But overall it was much better than DA2.

For DA3, I say, speed up DAO combat a bit. Mix up some new animations for all classes (realistic ones), add killing animations and you have perfect combat. I mean, if you're gonna fight enemy boss for half an hour, your effort should be rewarded with more than just new equipment. Beheading was my reward in every battle in DAO.

If there was a head to cut off, that is.

Modifié par Thori, 11 avril 2012 - 09:54 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

If you want to talk about animations. The over the top animations in DA2 are actually used in a real martial art.

Not while weilding weapons that outweigh their user, they're not. 

I do not think the daggers weigh anywhere near a person's weight. In fact the I believe the heaviest weapon in DAO is about 9 lbs. I could be wrong.

Assuming they have the same density as steel, I calculated the mass of some of the two-handed weapons as being north of 40 kg.

[Anomaly-]

Realmzmaster wrote...
What is you definition of realistic fighting?

Practical.

Is a roundhouse kick to the head unrealistic

Most of the time, no.

or a spinning hook kick to the chest?

Most of the time, yes.

What about savate which is an amalgam of street figting technigues used in France. Techniques that were used in actual combat. Sailors from the port of Marseille developed a street fighting style involving high kicks and slaps which was used in combat on ships. This lead to the modern day savate. I assume that would be considered realistic

Sure, there are many different martial arts styles out there, some vastly more practical than others. The real point to be made is that no rational person, skilled in any art, will needlessly waste time and risk accuracy by doing a jumping, 360 degree roundhouse kick to knock a flask into a group of enemies when their life depends on it and throwing the flask would be much safer.

This is specifically in regards to animations, nevermind the fact that Rogues are now better jumpers than any member of the Cat family, and can also teleport.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 11 avril 2012 - 10:09 .

[Thori]

People, martial arts techniques relate only to rogues in DA. What about warriors or mages? How can 2h sword fight be explained by martial arts? How can Fenris's imaginary biotic charge be explained? (I'll use companions as class models) How can Fenris's swipe be explained by martial arts? Sten and Oghren's swipe strike is very real and even fluid if you watch it closely. Fenris's sword hits like it's made of rubber. It bumps against enemies.

And what about mages? Dancing in one spot with a pole. I'm sure it would be pleasing if played char of opposite sex than the player, but it's completely impractical. Theres no need for the dance. Just point your stick and hit him with a fireball. Sure, mages in DAO were like grandmothers. One of them was. But at least they didn't wave their hands and legs like ragdolls. Only Arcane warrior would be excused of using the dance. Others... be mages or stripers. Can't do both.

[philippe willaume]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

If you want to talk about animations. The over the top animations in DA2 are actually used in a real martial art.

Not while weilding weapons that outweigh their user, they're not. 

Well my experience tell me that it does not work in real life with normal sword either, but if any one knows someone in the UK near London that is willing to spare. I can give it a try.

it is not that I believe that it is impossible, sword are thrown in medieval fencing, it is just not practical
Let alone against someone in full plate, which a sword has absolutely no chance of penetrating in the first place
 
 
You can get away with side or back flips against a weapon that is a poor chopper  like rapiers or light cavalry sabres , but against single or two handed proper cutting (as opposed to slicing) power , you are likely to finish in two parts (THS) or at least seriously cut (single hander).
phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 11 avril 2012 - 11:38 .

[Tommyspa]

Hmm, I'm all for a change as long as these things from DA2 stay:

The ability to avoid knockdown techniques by moving, as well with all melee, but shield bashing an opponent in the back and it turning you around in Origins was dumb.
Glancing blows rather than whiffing even though I clearly hit you.
Mage melee.
The feeling of weight behind weapon swings.
(from dlc) waves coming in from logical places.
Effectiveness of Two-Handed Warriors.
Overall fluidity.
No shuffling steps and gorilla back running.

And from Origins to return:

Arcane Warrior.
Dual sword wielding warrior.
Killing blows.

[katiebour]

 One of the main reasons I hardly ever play a dual-wielding rogue in DA2 is because of the combat animations.  I love the game, but I cringed a bit when I first saw the crazy jumps and flips.  Anyone who's ever taken a class in practical combat will tell you that show and flair are discarded in favor of safety, accuracy and power.  Jeet Kun Do was founded on the principles of efficiency, simplicity, realism, and utility.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Jeet_Kun_Do 

While I'm not suggesting that other martial arts don't have their uses, or that DA games should pattern their rogue combat after Jeet Kun Do, I think that more practical weapons-work in addition to practical hand-to-hand combat animation would be a plus.  Instead of a five-foot-high backwards flip, Evade should be a simple jump backwards, perhaps with a counterstrike when upgraded.  Flasks should definitely be thrown and not kicked, although melee kicks would be a welcome addition.  

Real knife fights can be extremely fast and awesome to watch without being over-the-top- see video here:   

And some jumps DO exist without being wildly unrealistic:
 

I'd slow down the 2h strikes a bit- those swords are heavy!  I mostly play a sword and shield warrior, and I liked the shield bashes and general attention to the shield as a weapon.  The bow animations as well I enjoyed.  I hated the stances for the warriors- they look like they're squatting, facing front, instead of turning to the side and giving the enemy less of a target to strike (as in fencing.)  I'd prefer to see them lighter on their feet and not hunched down so much.  Some great techniques here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG0Qelco8ek 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxyjP5JSqsA 

As for mage animations- I think the staff strikes are great for melee, and I really liked some of the hand animations for spells like Mind Blast.  I thought the spell effects were great, but the whole staff-twirling thing seemed a little over-the-top.  If they're drawing a glyph, have them sketch a glyph with hand or staff!  If they're throwing a wave of force as in Winter's Grasp, have a single, simple swing instead of a behind the back whirl-and-twirl routine.  Real staff fighting should also be an inspiration- it's AWESOME:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb2jn1EV3g4 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqwTVD0aTKk 

Mages seem to wield staves because they can be enchanted for additional power and are used to funnel magic through.  If Anders' hand shaking in Awakenings is any indication, casting fire directly from your fingertips may be expedient, but it BURNS.    Casting through a staff with enchantments to resist burns and freezing saves the mage a lot of pain, and if cornered in close combat they could rely on quick, unfocused spells (Mind Blast) or actual staff attacks in which they would have been trained.

And seriously, no twirling for any class.  You never give the enemy your back because it's an unguarded place to strike!

And maybe slow the effects down just a tad?  I didn't even realize that Winter's Grasp was actually a disembodied HAND until I paused for a screenie- it's a shame to have awesome effects like that get missed because it went too quickly to see.

And one addition that I would really, really love would be actual spell-chanting during mage combat.  Wynne implies in her dialogue regarding growing up in the Circle in DA:O that chanting is a part of spell-casting, and it was done fantastically by the healer-mage at the beginning in the (fantastic) machinima Warden's Fall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRVTl2ii8BM (2:04-2:16)

While I liked the sense of weight in Origins (i.e. it took a warrior more than a second to pull a sword above their heads and cut down with all of their force) I did like the upped combat speed in DA2.  I find that setting my own tactics carefully lets me focus on one character and let my companions do their own thing, and if I see their health incrementing down I can switch over to get them out of a jam.  I do often find that mages don't run away as much as they need to, and that I often end up controlling them just to get them out of a sticky situation.

I play Origins and DA2 on both PC and PS3, and overall, I liked the combat changes from DA:O to DA2.  A bit more realism, however, would be nice.  There are a lot of real martial arts traditions from German 2h swordsmanship to Italian knife-fighting to hand-to-hand martial arts that are inspiring, deadly to the unfortunate foes, and fun to watch