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#51
Ice-Whiz

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Ice-Whiz wrote...

I have to admit I did like the DA2 better, but I can understand it would be annoying for some, still I felt that in DA:O you had only barely an idea of how to handle your weapon. If you had dual-wielding, aside from finishing combos, you would strike with the right hand ALL the time for standard attack in a slow and tedious way or do breast-strokes, as if you were swimming?, it was a bit clumsy, however, it also sucks when the warriors in DA:2 are just as fast as the rogues, who are supposedly the nimble fighters.


As pretty much solely a dual-wielding rogue, the across motion in DA:O did bug me a little. Not the right hand motion though, perhaps because I'm right-handed.

DA ][ was a lot worse though. It was just absurd to be leaping around like that.


I'm right-handed too, but at some points I was just thinking: 'You have a weapon in the other hand too, use it!' :crying:
Though the DA2 leaping part was a bit much, I found the handling of the weapons better and the speed more satisfying, though for more tactical play it would probably be preferrable to slow it down, just not DA:O speed...imo that is.:)

#52
Dragoonlordz

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I might aswell repost what I have said on this subject already since my stance and view has not changed yet is a new thread talking about same elements.

Combat mechanics in DA2 I didn't mind so much, with exception of waves of instant spawning mobs and the blood felt like was painted on in very specific way in which the locations of the blood always tended to be same spots. Monsters exploded like lego parts was not really a turn on for me. I liked the faster pace with less shuffle.

The 'reinforcement' system should not be used unless your being pitted against an army or vast battlefield, including 'some' boss based battles. The 'wave' or reinforcement system should not be used for every single fight ever in games. It's unrealistic and tedious. The teleporting should be left for mages and spirits and even then through animations that can attribute to casting a teleportation spell else just use the doors and such like supposed to when entering or exiting a place.

There is no real tactical use for implementing the kind of waves in DA2. When applying tactics the enemies must be using clear shown tactics in how came into the battle such as stage by stage type evolution of reinforcement (archers, warriors, casters etc minor and major mobs timed and more exaclty location based different approaches for units and mobs) and not willy nilly drop and spank method using completley random placement and units.

Most battles should have set placements (static mobs) amount of units while the major battles (story and location based) should apply reinforcements method only (even then using real tactics to approach not just dropping in random units at random places). That is what I would like to see.

If it comes down to applying difficulty to the combat you improve the tactics using much better implementation of reinforcements AND more to my liking is the DAO approach of to make progression harder through the game via varying strength between different mob types and not auto leveling of all mobs to match your own level regardless of unit type. Not a wave system on every fight to make up for lack of difficulty.

Bring in new unit types as progress, stronger specific units as the game progresses while keeping the older models and units weak as you out level them, more cannon fodder to back up the new stronger ones as progress in battles as opposed to linking the weak random bandits to your maximum level hero's.

With regard to the problem they had with closing in on casters and ranged mobs, there I feel was no need for jutsu techniques. Tactics could be used instead, from standing behind walls worked in most case or behind rocks or trees they would have to come closer or around corners to attack you putting them within range of your melee characters. Limited supply of arrows or mana again opens up opportunities for closing the gaps. These tactical elements add to the enjoyment for some but I have to admit not for everyone.

Having casters and ranged members on your team also can be used to counter such, it is after all a party based game with companions present most of the time. When you are forced in a segment to be alone they could alter the fights in that section to give ways around a problem rather than relying on what felt like teleportation even though the excuse was just to fast to see move (sorry might be bit mean but it's just not how it feels to me).

I won't go into the element of out of combat skills here but I would like them to be present too. Ones that have possible uses in both elements from stealth which in battle can be used for scouting and out of combat combined with pick pocketing as alternative ways to complete quests. Just one example of many. Traps and such disarm or placement for purpose of ambush after scouting in stealth being another combat skill which adds tactical elements to fights and battles.

I won't go into weapons per se as that I would rather discuss in a thread relating to overall customisation.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 avril 2012 - 11:56 .


#53
DeadPoolX

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I can't believe some of you are arguing realism when it comes to combat in either DA game. This is a fantasy world where magic, dragons, demons, an alternate dimension and other unrealistic entities exist.

If we were talking about a historically-based game (like something that takes place in WWII, for instance) I could see arguing the "realism card." Developers will still usually forgo realism in favor of gameplay, but I could see the merit in it for this case.

DA:O or DA2, however, has no realism. At all. The ME series is more realistic than the DA series and that's not saying much.

So while there are multiple arguments in favor or against the combat in DA2 (and DA:O, for that matter), realism is not one of them.

#54
Ice-Whiz

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DeadPoolMK wrote...

I can't believe some of you are arguing realism when it comes to combat in either DA game. This is a fantasy world where magic, dragons, demons, an alternate dimension and other unrealistic entities exist.

If we were talking about a historically-based game (like something that takes place in WWII, for instance) I could see arguing the "realism card." Developers will still usually forgo realism in favor of gameplay, but I could see the merit in it for this case.

DA:O or DA2, however, has no realism. At all. The ME series is more realistic than the DA series and that's not saying much.

So while there are multiple arguments in favor or against the combat in DA2 (and DA:O, for that matter), realism is not one of them.

I don't think it's as much realism being argued as what ties in with the setting and the characters. I didn't mind the high leaping, but I can see how some might consider it out of style with the rest of the game...maybe too "anime"? You know, it would make perfect sense in an FF game but stands out in a BioWare game.
And DA:O it's probably not that the fights are fantastically unrealistic, just not fitting a setting where most people run around with weaponry yet the battles are so slow, like they aren't used to them.

It's just easier to say 'realism' than 'fitting to setting' but I believe it's meant relatively.:)

#55
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Verisimilitude for the sake of the suspension of disbelief and the integrity of the setting. Bam, the argument is once again valid.

#56
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*

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DeadPoolMK wrote...

I can't believe some of you are arguing realism when it comes to combat in either DA game. This is a fantasy world where magic, dragons, demons, an alternate dimension and other unrealistic entities exist.

If we were talking about a historically-based game (like something that takes place in WWII, for instance) I could see arguing the "realism card." Developers will still usually forgo realism in favor of gameplay, but I could see the merit in it for this case.

DA:O or DA2, however, has no realism. At all. The ME series is more realistic than the DA series and that's not saying much.

So while there are multiple arguments in favor or against the combat in DA2 (and DA:O, for that matter), realism is not one of them.


That's an incredibly slippery slope you have there.

Not realistic in other areas=not allowed to be realistic anywhere. That does not work.

Ice-Whiz wrote...

I don't think it's as much realism being argued as what ties in with the setting and the characters. I didn't mind the high leaping, but I can see how some might consider it out of style with the rest of the game...maybe too "anime"? You know, it would make perfect sense in an FF game but stands out in a BioWare game.
And DA:O it's probably not that the fights are fantastically unrealistic, just not fitting a setting where most people run around with weaponry yet the battles are so slow, like they aren't used to them.

It's just easier to say 'realism' than 'fitting to setting' but I believe it's meant relatively.:)


Amusingly enough, DA ][ combat is several times worse (i.e. jumping around and backflips and such) as FFXIII and XIII-2, and probably any FF game (those are the only ones I've played). DA ][ is just way too fast and over the top that it's unrealistic.

#57
philippe willaume

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katiebour wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

katiebour wrote...
I'd slow down the 2h strikes a bit- those swords are heavy!  I mostly play a sword and shield warrior, and I liked the shield bashes and general attention to the shield as a weapon.  The bow animations as well I enjoyed.  I hated the stances for the warriors- they look like they're squatting, facing front, instead of turning to the side and giving the enemy less of a target to strike (as in fencing.)  I'd prefer to see them lighter on their feet and not hunched down so much.  Some great techniques here:

 
 

i mostly agree with your post, but 2handed sword are not heavy (about 2-3lbs for longswords, and 3-4lbs for zweihanders.
In fact a a two handed weapon has much more tip control than a single hand wepon would have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49CubW9XK_A&list=UUzHmlSTUA4K0kdOkInAdkwA&index=2&feature=plcp
phil


Zweihanders could weigh up to 16 lb.  

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Zweihänder 

Pier Gerlofs Donia is reputed to have wielded a Zweihänder with such skill, strength and efficiency that he managed to behead multiple people with it in a single blow. The Zweihänder ascribed to him is, as of 2008, on display in the Frisian museum. It has a length of 213 cm (84 in) and a weight of about 6.6 kg (14½ lb).[1]

And given that most of the 2h weapons in DA2 seem to be over 4 feet in length, I'd imagine that they pack quite a bit of heft.  But of course the zweihanders don't represent the majority of real-world 2h weapons that were in use, even if most of the DA2 two-handers seem to be of a similar (and extreme) length/weight:

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Lineage 
http://dragonage.wik...Empress's_Point



I believe that you are mixing bearing sword and actual weapons.
(Read john Clements article from the link you posted)
 
Most of the Zweihand I have held were under 4-9 lbs.
Look at the museum catalogues when you see the weapons you see what I mean.
One of my longsword (a XVIIIe 150 cm and it is about 4-5lbs. and it is a very strong cutter (though a flater bales would probably perform even better).
 
 
Through the 1300 to the 1500 cent you could find “war sword or great sword between 140 and 160 cm. without being proper zweihander proper (ie Oakeshott type XX
http://www.myarmoury...ure_spotxx.html
 
Bearing sword were ceremonial sword, design to show how manly the owned was (see the cod pieces of the armour of the same period ;-) )
Anything over 5kg is very likely to have been a bearing sword, the cutting action derives of tip velocity so after a while mass is counter productive.
That being said I am 1.80 cm for 100 kg. I would say that 4.5 kg is probably top of what I can handle in a Zweihander configuration.
That is to level of nimbleness I am comfortable with, if it is to slow I feel too exposed given how far the opposition is.
 
That being said panzerstecher (ie anti armour sword type XVII) were shorter 34-36” blade and could weight up to 6 lbs but they behave more like JO than sword and the center of balance is much further up the blade up to the centre than in normal longsword
 
 
so yes yes the DA:2 and some of the DA:0 sword are a bit a BFS 9000 (bio force sword) but I wouldn’t mind THS being quicker in the game.
I know it is counter intuitive but it is easier to change direction with a two handed sword than with a one handed (unless we are talking small sword).
phil

#58
Rawgrim

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DeadPoolMK wrote...

I can't believe some of you are arguing realism when it comes to combat in either DA game. This is a fantasy world where magic, dragons, demons, an alternate dimension and other unrealistic entities exist.

If we were talking about a historically-based game (like something that takes place in WWII, for instance) I could see arguing the "realism card." Developers will still usually forgo realism in favor of gameplay, but I could see the merit in it for this case.

DA:O or DA2, however, has no realism. At all. The ME series is more realistic than the DA series and that's not saying much.

So while there are multiple arguments in favor or against the combat in DA2 (and DA:O, for that matter), realism is not one of them.


In the dragon age world, magic and dragons are realistic. People who can`t use magic, suddenly magically pulling out an endless suply of smokebombs, isn`t realistic in that world. Talis jumping 50 feet through the air, backwards and upwards, isn`t realistic. Since the laws of physics apply to this world. People exploding from a simple stabwound isn`t realistic in this world. But a person exploding from being hit by a certain spell, is.

Enemies aprearing in mid-air, inside a house, and raining down on you, isn`t realistic. If there had been some explanation for it, involving magic or whatsnot, it would be realistc. its calleed "realism withing an unrealistic setting". We are explained how a fictional world works. If things deviate from what we are told or shown, with no explanation, its unrealistic.

#59
MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES

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THE BEST COMBAT IN THE DRAGON AGE SERIES IS RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING OF DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS. FIGHTS ARE FAST, TACTICAL, AND GRITTY. PEOPLE GO DOWN, AND INJURIES REALLY HURT WHEN YOU AREN'T CARRYING 20X FIRST AID KITS. IT'S BASICALLY ALL DOWNHILL FROM THERE.

ALSO, THEY SHOULD DITCH THE AGGRO MECHANIC COMPLETELY AND OVERHAUL ENEMY TARGET SELECTION. AGGRO DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FROM AN IN-GAME PERSPECTIVE, AND ARTIFICIALLY LIMITS THE ABILITY OF THE AI TO PRIORITIZE TARGETS AND ACT TACTICALLY.

#60
philippe willaume

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DeadPoolMK wrote...

I can't believe some of you are arguing realism when it comes to combat in either DA game. This is a fantasy world where magic, dragons, demons, an alternate dimension and other unrealistic entities exist.

If we were talking about a historically-based game (like something that takes place in WWII, for instance) I could see arguing the "realism card." Developers will still usually forgo realism in favor of gameplay, but I could see the merit in it for this case.

DA:O or DA2, however, has no realism. At all. The ME series is more realistic than the DA series and that's not saying much.

So while there are multiple arguments in favor or against the combat in DA2 (and DA:O, for that matter), realism is not one of them.


hello
Well you know, when I started practicing medieval fencing I though what I read in the manual was fantasie and now I think nothing of wresting on horseback at the gallop or deflecting the lance of and oncoming jouster (well it is unsportsmanlike) but none the less easy to do.
Or for example, sighting optics of the felin system (and modern optics of several other country/supplier makes ME technolology retrograde
 
How the sword looks what you can do with them need to be linked to reality for the fantasy to take holds.
Have a look at the witcher I and II armours and weapons look realistic some stance and moves are based on manuals. It looks “realistic” and we are talking about a medival setting, populated with monster where magic and genetic bio-engennering goes hands in hands.
Not all the strikes or moves would work in reality but it rooted enough in reality not to cause disbelief.
So DA:2 BFS, shaolin-pirate-ninja move and exploding bodies did not really help.
phil

#61
Realmzmaster

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I find it amusing that gamers can accept regenerating health and mana after each battle or being able to carry everything up to a space limit with multiple items in one space with no weight consideration, or calling a pet from thin air in both DAO and DA2 which should be seen as mage-like, but Hawke jumping 50 feet in the air is not acceptable because it violates the laws of physics?

I also find it interesting that gamers are faulting DA2 for skills that originated in DA:Awakenings like decoy.
I find it interesting that gamers want to bring back DAO stealth which is totally unrealistic. You can stealth in broad daylight and walk right past a dog whose sense of smell is way beyond humans, but that same rogue cannot get past a high dragon.

I find it interesting that gamers want set battles with static mobs thereby depriving the AI the ability to hold back reinforcements. I am all for reinforcements coming from logical places. I also believe that if the party is in an alley surround by low buildings or in a building with balconies it is quite possible for enemies in light armor (like rogues) to drop down on top of the party or behind the party. I agree that it is nonsensical for enemies in heavy armor to do it.

I find it interesting that gamers expect realism in certain aspects but have no problem foregoing it in others.

#62
Sylvius the Mad

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Realmzmaster wrote...

I find it amusing that gamers can accept regenerating health and mana after each battle or being able to carry everything up to a space limit with multiple items in one space with no weight consideration, or calling a pet from thin air in both DAO and DA2 which should be seen as mage-like, but Hawke jumping 50 feet in the air is not acceptable because it violates the laws of physics?

For the record, I don't accept regenerating health or unlimited inventory either.

I also find it interesting that gamers are faulting DA2 for skills that originated in DA:Awakenings like decoy.

I haven't played Awakening yet.

I find it interesting that gamers want to bring back DAO stealth which is totally unrealistic.

It's better than having no non-combat stealth at all.

I find it interesting that gamers want set battles with static mobs thereby depriving the AI the ability to hold back reinforcements. I am all for reinforcements coming from logical places.

If I know there's a mercenary camp ahead, and I'm supposed to go kill the mercenaries, then I should be able to sneak up to that camp and attack from cover or with some element of surprise, rather than having to walk right up to them, have a chat, and then fight them once they're ready.  There's no reason at all to have the enemies be invulnerable prior to them deciding we're fighting.

#63
DeadPoolX

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My point is that the laws of physics (as we understand them) apparently DON'T apply in the DA world. If they did, how do you explain magic?

If you could shoot flames out of your hands, you'd burn them to a crisp. At the very least you'd have second degree burns and serious blistering every single time you did it.

What about casting "storm of the century?" How does that not wreak havoc with the weather itself? You can't suddenly create a blizzard combined with a lightning storm and expect the weather to go back to normal afterward. It doesn't work like that.

Even if we forget about magic, the types of wounds our characters and companions receive in any given battle should be life threatening. If you take an arrow to the arm, for instance, you've now got a shaft of wood and metal imbedded in your muscle, maybe bone marrow as well. Plus, it could've nicked or completely severed an artery, in which case you'll bleed out.

What about being knocked out? How many times would our Warden, Hawke or other teammates have had concussions and skull fractures?

Yeah, I know magic can heal all of this, but that's part of my point. No amount of hocus pocus should be able to immediately repair complex tissue and vascular damage. The mere fact that it does already demands hefty suspension of disbelief.

So debating realism is a failed argument from the start. Unless we want a serious medieval simulation (and I can't imagine that'd be all too enjoyable) we just have to remember that the DA world is make believe. What can happen in it does not have to make sense to us in the real world.

Modifié par DeadPoolMK, 13 avril 2012 - 08:17 .


#64
twystedspyder

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DeadPoolMK wrote...

So debating realism is a failed argument from the start. Unless we want a serious medieval simulation (and I can't imagine that'd be all too enjoyable) we just have to remember that the DA world is make believe. What can happen in it does not have to make sense to us in the real world.



Huh.

Realism is even more important in a fantasy game BECAUSE of its fantastical elements.  Remove too much realism and it detaches the player from the experience completely.  That is a bad thing.

Dragon Age was designed from the beginning to be a Dark Fantasy RPG, along the lines of George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series.  So yeah, based around realistic medieval culture and combat but with dangerous magics lurking along the edges.  That was the whole point of these games.  If you read the lead writer's other stories in this setting, you will see that is still the vision he has for Dragon Age, though other people involved in design and development may no longer see it that way.

So it is not a failed argument at all.  It is 100% relevant to the discussion.  

Now does it destroy the mood of Dark Fantasy to have some over the top animations for combat?  Not necessarily, though I think DA2 did actually go way too far with its cartoony animations, especially since this level of absurdity wasn’t really represented anywhere else in the game, which caused that strange lack of visual consistency between the narrative and the combat.

I guess we can just blame it all on Varric's embellishments.

Modifié par twystedspyder, 13 avril 2012 - 09:06 .


#65
Realmzmaster

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@Sylvius the Mad,

I was simply pointing out what many gamers on this forum find acceptable even though it violates the laws of physics (like Hawke jumping 50 feet in the air or the warden or other melee companion jumping up to finish an Orge). I think there should be no regenerating health and mana like you. Melca36 mentioned the decoy talent in DA2 being ridiculous except the talent was first used in Awakening.

I am all for realistic combat stealth. I would like to see a refinement of the stealth mechanic from MoTA. I want to be able to ambush the enemy or scout ahead under the cover of the forest. D & D called it hiding in shadows which I think is a better application. You should not be able to stealth across an open field in broad daylight.

I agree with you that enemies should never be invulnerable. I also believe you should be able to kill plot characters and then have to suffer the consequences of the action (within reason). For example Hawke wanting to kill Petrice (which I know a lot of people wanted to do). I had the same problem with DAO I could enter Denerim, but had no access to the Royal estate or the Arl of Denerim estate until the story allowed it not even to scout out the city.

I was also annoyed by the semi-hold in DA2 which was a bad design decision.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 13 avril 2012 - 09:24 .


#66
cJohnOne

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I really enjoyed how Rogues played in DA2 so I shouldn't talk but I think adding realistic details improves the game quite a bit. Why would that be? I guess it is a matter of having a shared physics with the game world outside of magic and rogue magic here and there. On the other hand characters wouldn't be able to do anything if they were too realistic so it's a fine line.

Modifié par cJohnOne, 13 avril 2012 - 09:31 .


#67
Realmzmaster

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twystedspyder wrote...
Snip
.


I agree with what you said except gamers seem to want to pick and choose their realism. It is okay that in DAO your pet magically appears out of thin air called by a ranger who has no magical ability or a rogue can use stealth to cross an open field in broad daylight or avoid detection by a war hound from a breed that is known for its intelligence. But let Hawke jump up high in the air and that is not realistic. 

Combat when it happens is fast and brutal. If Bioware is going to go back to the speed of DAO's combat I rather they go to turn based combat or realtime with pause with a turn based underpinning. Let's go full tactical like Temple of Elemetal Evil or Pool of Radiance: Myth Drannor where initative determine who attacked first.  Stats like dexterity determine if you could dodge an attack taking into account the armor worn and equipment in hand. Will you be able to dodge with the spear or does the character drop it while dodging?
Spellscasting where spells can actually miscast and potions that fail. Weapons can be fumbled.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 13 avril 2012 - 09:41 .


#68
twystedspyder

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@Realmzmaster

I can't really comment on what other gamers may want with regards to realism in Dragon Age.  I haven't been on the forums that much.  However I personally would have preferred a better way to represent the Ranger's animal companion ability and the Rogue's stealth in DAO.  You are correct in that neither is especially "realistic", but neither are they unecessarily so.

The problem with pointing to the animal summoning and stealth for examples of unrealistic displays of power in DAO is that they take a minimalist approach to providing interesting powers for different classes.  The Animal Summoning simulates a Ranger's ability to charm and work with wild animals and the Rogue's "invisibility" is simulating his skill at moving from cover to cover and sticking to the shadows.  These powers are represented this way due to resource and technical issues, not because of a purely asthetic design choice.

When you go out of your way to design something in an unrealistic almost cartoony fashion that could have been represented in a much more believable way while achieving the same mechanical and narrative results, you really start to disrupt the player's ability to suspend their disbelief.

I'd personally love it if they integrated some concepts from the more realistic "sim" combat systems of the past.  A return to the variation of the realtime/pause/turn system would also be fine with me.  However that probably isn't going to happen.  I'm fine with trying to make combat work on both a tactical and accessable "action" level as long as they actually make it work.  I just don't think it worked all that well in DA2 and find DAO's pacing to provide a much better ballance.  I don't know if going forward; slowing down the combat entirely would be the best compromise, though toning town the animations would most likely help cut down on the visual clutter.

Honestly I just dont want to feel like I'm playing Dragon Ball Z when I should be playing Dragon Age.

**edit for end of long work week type-os

Modifié par twystedspyder, 13 avril 2012 - 11:13 .


#69
Sylvius the Mad

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Realmzmaster wrote...

You should not be able to stealth across an open field in broad daylight.

Unless you're really good at it.

Remember, stealth doesn't just include hiding in shadows.  Moving undetected through a crowd, using backlight from a setting sun to obscure your target's vision - there are reasons an expert at hiding might be able to hide in an open environment.  But the game just can't model all of those types of stealth, so we get an abstraction.

#70
DeadPoolX

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twystedspyder wrote...
Realism is even more important in a fantasy game BECAUSE of its fantastical elements.  Remove too much realism and it detaches the player from the experience completely.  That is a bad thing.

Okay, I agree that completely removing any sense of realism is a bad thing.  However, it seems like many gamers illogically pick and choose which facets of gameplay are realistic and which aren't. 

Who's to say that jumping 50 feet in the air isn't realistic within the DA world?  It's not in our world, but we can't summon creatures or shoot lightning out of our fingertips either.

twystedspyder wrote...
Dragon Age was designed from the beginning to be a Dark Fantasy RPG, along the lines of George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series.  So yeah, based around realistic medieval culture and combat but with dangerous magics lurking along the edges.  That was the whole point of these games.  If you read the lead writer's other stories in this setting, you will see that is still the vision he has for Dragon Age, though other people involved in design and development may no longer see it that way.

But it seems to me that series gives us a more realistic (i.e. more like our own world) setting.  We don't see the typical trappings of high fantasy, so the world does seem more realistic, at least by real world standards.

Now my exposure to the George R.R. Martin's series is limited to the show Game of Thrones, so my overall knowledge of that world might not be as extensive as yours or someone else who's read the books.

twystedspyder wrote...
I guess we can just blame it all on Varric's embellishments.

It wouldn't be the first time Varric has exaggerated. 

#71
Realmzmaster

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You should not be able to stealth across an open field in broad daylight.

Unless you're really good at it.

Remember, stealth doesn't just include hiding in shadows.  Moving undetected through a crowd, using backlight from a setting sun to obscure your target's vision - there are reasons an expert at hiding might be able to hide in an open environment.  But the game just can't model all of those types of stealth, so we get an abstraction.


I understand what you are saying, but in DAO the rogue can stand right next to the enemy under a light source and set a trap. So unless the rogue is hiding in the enemy's shadow I cannot see the possibility. I can understand abstraction not absurdity. Some gamers are willing to hand wave this aspect while condemning DA2 for Hawke's high jumps. There are parts in both games that stretch believeability.

#72
seraphymon

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Realmzmaster wrote...

I find it amusing that gamers can accept regenerating health and mana after each battle or being able to carry everything up to a space limit with multiple items in one space with no weight consideration, or calling a pet from thin air in both DAO and DA2 which should be seen as mage-like, but Hawke jumping 50 feet in the air is not acceptable because it violates the laws of physics?

its not that ibelieve they accept health and mana regen simply by being unrealistic, but because of the convinience. to not have to sit and wait or chug potions, to go on to the next battle, especially in DA2 where thats all it was. I find DAO was better, where you could only regen a bit at a time, so you had to woryy about resting up, or risking going on.

As for calling the pet, well to me its only because its easier to implement it that way probably, than using an item, and having the dog or pet, being seen coming in from the distance, llike say LInk and his horse.



I find it interesting that gamers want set battles with static mobs thereby depriving the AI the ability to hold back reinforcements. I am all for reinforcements coming from logical places. I also believe that if the party is in an alley surround by low buildings or in a building with balconies it is quite possible for enemies in light armor (like rogues) to drop down on top of the party or behind the party. I agree that it is nonsensical for enemies in heavy armor to do it.


Id rather the Ai have to ability to have more than just swing their weapons, like in DA2 with no intellgience hardly. but its the the constant wave in every battle and ones going through cielings that i complain about.

I find it interesting that gamers expect realism in certain aspects but have no problem foregoing it in others.


Well of course, its not an all or nothing sort of thing. But at least the way i judge it is, what you can do to be more realistic, and what you simply cannot, along the lines of how you present them. To me it was just more flash for eye candy in DA2, even though most of it is unrealistic. and more so than DAO.

#73
Chrumpek

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Dragon age origins combat for me was great and no not because of the clunky controls. All the 'unresponsive' aside, I like the feel it gave - realistic power behind swings and spells, some animations were good (the melee types), some were medicore (for me all the mage 'staff' animations) but they all felt realistic for what realism you can get in a RPG game.

When my warrior swinged that huge sword (not the final fantasy 2,5 meter DA2 huge) and enemy got knocked back, it felt powerful and fitting for a slow warrior in full plate. When a mage hurled fireball, huge explosion erupted and knocked everyone in the radius.

Awesome :>

Then over the top varric story combat came, which was fun, but not as satisfying, examples:
-Character jumps and swings like crazy, 30 stabs to kill a normal mob.
- mage hurls fireball, whole screen covered in explosion, takes 1/10 of enemy health and staggers for 2 secs
- you hit someone with a combo spell, he explodes... always.
- you get tons of enemies all the time, in waves - yay!

So give me realistic combat ala DAO, with responsivness of DA2 and I'll be really happy :>

#74
wowpwnslol

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Realmzmaster wrote...


Spellscasting where spells can actually miscast and potions that fail. Weapons can be fumbled.


Retarded. It only encourages reloading and doesn't add anything to the game except frustration. The underlying mechanics of the game should work to lessen RNG factor, not enhance it, making battles a matter of skill and strategic planning rather than an outcome of a  favorable roll of the die. As a player I hate when an outcome of a battle is decided by dumb mechanics like you mentioned. You can do everything right in regards to tactics and still fail because of a fumbled spell, failing potion etc. This doesn't add to great gameplay.

Modifié par wowpwnslol, 14 avril 2012 - 01:12 .


#75
Chrumpek

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wowpwnslol wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...


Spellscasting where spells can actually miscast and potions that fail. Weapons can be fumbled.


Retarded. It only encourages reloading and doesn't add anything to the game except frustration. The underlying mechanics of the game should work to lessen RNG factor, not enhance it, making battles a matter of skill and strategic planning rather than an outcome of a  favorable roll of the die. As a player I hate when an outcome of a battle is decided by dumb mechanics like you mentioned. You can do everything right in regards to tactics and still fail because of a fumbled spell, failing potion etc. This doesn't add to great gameplay.


Totally agree, tho it could be implemented in a way that for example a 'circle mage' can try casting a blood magic spell that he didnt yet fully master by giving it a flat 50% of backfiring.

For example a blood magic talent that gives you an ability to cast 'master level spells even if you didn't learn them when character falls below 25% HP but at a 50% chance of failing.