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[philippe willaume]

quality) of the piece you move and there is nothing your opponent can do tor prevent you to land the piece on a free legal destination.
Whether it has been solved or not, should not detract that it is purely a mathematical problem.

For simulating action like fighting, you need to factor in two aspects, what you want to achieve, which is equivalent to the chess, and how well you succeed in the manner of achieving it.
To take a chess example, the way you actually move the piece from A to B would determine what the piece is when land on B.

So whilst I don’t like straight RNG because a poor jump for Carl lewis is still much better than a poor jump for me. (And in 10 years I have not dropped my sword in sparing ever)
So I am much more in favour of success quantification bases on slanted RNG,
But in any case you need a way to quantify execution, because it has a direct and significant influence on result

[bEVEsthda]

Realmzmaster wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...
Depends what you mean by "real martial art". I have to agree that sports and training which have closer ties to Chinese opera than real fighting are martial arts. But my point is, it's not real fighting. I'm for instance sooo certain that backflip has never been used in real fighting, at least not to anything but immediate disaster.

But sure, it's viable to put game combat on the same scene as Chinese opera and Hong Kong movies, it's done all the time. But I think that is exactly what some are protesting. They want more realistic fighting.

Think I want that too.

What is you definition of realistic fighting? Is a roundhouse kick to the head unrealistic or a spinning hook kick to the chest? What about savate which is an amalgam of street figting technigues used in France. Techniques that were used in actual combat. Sailors from the port of Marseille developed a street fighting style involving high kicks and slaps which was used in combat on ships. This lead to the modern day savate. I assume that would be considered realistic.

I said "more realistic fighting", as in a direction of moving from DA2, which I consider completely unrealistic (and also some other things...). But the question as you put it, with savate as example, I can only consider as tangential and irrelevant to the matter. My answer would be something like this: If the greatest champion of savate, to have ever walked the earth, tried his kicks against a mediocre, but trained soldier with sword/spear & shield, I would consider anything, but the great savate-champion dying promptly, as unrealistic. That doesn't stop Hollywood of course. So the question remains if we want game developers to follow Hollywood or not? I don't want them too. I think Hollywood have already gone way too far into an unrealistic lala land. The first Matrix movie was cool, but really...

[Realmzmaster]

philippe willaume wrote...

quality) of the piece you move and there is nothing your opponent can do tor prevent you to land the piece on a free legal destination.
Whether it has been solved or not, should not detract that it is purely a mathematical problem.

For simulating action like fighting, you need to factor in two aspects, what you want to achieve, which is equivalent to the chess, and how well you succeed in the manner of achieving it.
To take a chess example, the way you actually move the piece from A to B would determine what the piece is when land on B.

So whilst I don’t like straight RNG because a poor jump for Carl lewis is still much better than a poor jump for me. (And in 10 years I have not dropped my sword in sparing ever)
So I am much more in favour of success quantification bases on slanted RNG,
But in any case you need a way to quantify execution, because it has a direct and significant influence on result

RNG events are slanted. For example sword handling, the more experienced the person is with the sword the less likely the person is to fumble. Sword handling experience acts as a modifier to the RNG event. 
Another RNG event could be weapon breakage. If the a 2 hander weilding a great sword connects with a long sword what is the possibility of breaking that sword? 

What is the possibility that I numb the longsword holder's arm with the force of the blow? The way DAO and DA2 work none of that is factored into the equation. How effective is a fighter who is tired? You will never know in a DA game because no one tires and everyone is ready for the next battle because of regernerating health and mana.

Edited for spelling

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 16 avril 2012 - 05:20 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

grregg wrote...

I have to analyze all of them since I don't know which one he'll choose. In DA-type of game, I instruct a character to, say, attack and the outcome is dictated by an RNG. Still the overall space of outcomes is known and I can analyze them all, right? The outcomes will be miss, hit for 4 points, hit for 5 points, ..., hit for 17 points, you get the idea.

But you have to take into account the likelihood of any possible set of outcomes.  Hitting for 17 might kill an opponent, thus saving a party meber on the verge of death and allowing her to consume a potion to reenter battle.  Hitting for 5 might fail to kill that opponent, thus allowing for the possibility of that opponent killing your party member and removing her from the rest of the battle.

In a long battle, small changes in probability have huge ramifications for future tactics.

Moreover, in chess, the optimal move always has the best possible outcome.  But with RNG, the best possible outcome could be the result of a low-percentage gamble.  Do you take that chance?

How is one analysis fundamentally different from the other? A tree is a tree.

Is it necessarily a tree, or possibly a tree?

That's the difference.

About reloading, it might be a meta-game concern, but it does affect the game design. I imagine that a game would have to be designed very differently depending on whether it allows reloading or not. If so, then we cannot ignore it.

A game that doesn't allow reloading should be vastly easier.  That's the only difference.

Our primary concern with any game feature should be what it's in-game effect is.  Reloading isn't an in-game event, so it's not relevant.

Difficulty and coherence have no necessary relationship.

[katiebour]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Urazz wrote...

Actually 2 handed swords aren't that heavy

Look at them.  The DA2 swords have blades that are 10 cm thick.

Yes, real two-handed swords aren't that heavy, but real two-handed swords aren't nearly as big as DA2's swords.

If they made the swords a more realistic size, then I would be more willing to accept the faster animations. 

^^This.
Since OMGWTFBBQ!GIANT!SWORDS/MACES seem to be now standard in RPGS, probably thanks to Final Fantasy (along with superhuman strength a la Fenris) I'd like to see slower animations.  Make the swords true-to-life size, speed up the animation.  But if you're swinging a sword or a maul that's as tall as you are, I want to see the effort that goes into that kind of a swing.

I don't really care whether they make the weapons more true to life or not- I'd simply, personally like to see effort involved in hefting a giant weapon, as was so beautifully illustrated in the Tudors...

 

/snicker

[philippe willaume]

Realmzmaster wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

quality) snip

RNG events are slanted. For example sword handling, the more experienced the person is with the sword the less likely the person is to fumble. Sword handling experience acts as a modifier to the RNG event. 
Another RNG event could be weapon breakage. If the a 2 hander weilding a great sword connects with a long sword what is the possibility of breaking that sword? 

What is the possibility that I numb the longsword holder's arm with the force of the blow? The way DAO and DA2 work none of that is factored into the equation. How effective is a fighter who is tired? You will never know in a DA game because no one tires and everyone is ready for the next battle because of regernerating health and mana.

Edited for spelling

Well you are supposed to fence "with all the strength of your limbs" as Uncle Sigmund put it. ie use your whole body .
Blocking is counter productive because anything from there will be too slow so it can leave you open.
That being said a small dent in your sword is better than a big one in you.
Sword are much more likely to break if they are folded, crucible steel sword tend to be robust enough.


But more seriously and to the point, yes i totally agree that we should have the option to deflect or block and the quality of the strike should drive the outcome.
in the game I have created if the quality of the block is not good enough compared to the attack you can get a stinger or even been thrown according to what you block. (Attack and defence are compared qualitatively and the difference will drive the result be it damage, tactical action or side effect of a blow)
the way the system is designed you do not have static bonus when you are more skilled but you have a better probability of larger level of success.
So I kind of prefer it to be success driven rather than rolling a fumble if you see what I mean.
 
For fatigue, give the DA time frame I think that would only work during combat, we can assume that we rest after each engagement since there is no definite timeline.
we could have a fatigued condition like wounds but that would only increase micromanagement with no real game play gain. (IE just need to go to camp or gulp a potion so no real draw back other than legging it to the exit)

since there are a few way to recover stamina in DA2 (I.E with each kill for the warrior for example) stamina is probably not the best (unless it is changed) we could use progressive penalties on performance based on %of hit points but in a way level based hit points are already representing that.
 
I think it is quite hard to implement fatigue when you have level based hit point.
IT is easier when the wounding system is based on (race+build) and independent of level and fatigue received is based skill score.
 
It could be argued that the point if fencing is not fencing but wining, i.e. there are no points deducted for lack of combativity or lack of aggression, even the olds master recognise that one single mistake will end you, so it is really a matter of going in when you are confident it is going to work basically starting from 50-50 sucks. What I am getting at is I am more tired after a 5 minutes on the ground or a 3 minutes MT round than in 2 hours of “fencing”
 
Phil
 
PS sorry messed up my copy and paste on the other post…

Modifié par philippe willaume, 16 avril 2012 - 10:34 .

[philippe willaume]

katiebour wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Urazz wrote...

Actually 2 handed swords aren't that heavy

Look at them.  The DA2 swords have blades that are 10 cm thick.

Yes, real two-handed swords aren't that heavy, but real two-handed swords aren't nearly as big as DA2's swords.

If they made the swords a more realistic size, then I would be more willing to accept the faster animations. 

^^This.
Since OMGWTFBBQ!GIANT!SWORDS/MACES seem to be now standard in RPGS, probably thanks to Final Fantasy (along with superhuman strength a la Fenris) I'd like to see slower animations.  Make the swords true-to-life size, speed up the animation.  But if you're swinging a sword or a maul that's as tall as you are, I want to see the effort that goes into that kind of a swing.

I don't really care whether they make the weapons more true to life or not- I'd simply, personally like to see effort involved in hefting a giant weapon, as was so beautifully illustrated in the Tudors...

 

/snicker

I think you've got it in a nutshell either you make sword truer to life or you make the speed/animation matching the sword size.
Other than immersion problem which is more linked to representation that game mechanics anyway, making attack slower makes TWH weapons damage trickier to design and balance.

But that could be a separation between rogues and warriors
IE same amount damage over time.
But spread over several attack for the rogue
and all or noting for the warrior.

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 16 avril 2012 - 10:38 .

[twystedspyder]

DeadPoolMK wrote...

Now my exposure to the George R.R. Martin's series is limited to the show Game of Thrones, so my overall knowledge of that world might not be as extensive as yours or someone else who's read the books.

I won't spoil anything for you then.  

Let's just say that Martin's world might just be a bit less Medieval Europe and a bit more Dragon Age than it appears at first glance.  This is probably one of the most genius parts of the setting...


Though Dragon Age magic has been portrayed as a lot more Dungeons & Dragons ("Lighting Bolt!  Lightning Bolt!") than anything else since the beginning.