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[BigKevSexyMan]

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this theory up but first, let me state the theories I have heard so far.
1)  Flemeth is a really powerful abomination and nothing more.
2)  Flemeth is the incarnation of Toth, the archdemon killed around her time of normal existance and birth


Now, I thought up new theory that I think makes a lot more sense and explains much.

Lets discuss what we think we know.
1)  Powerful magics was taught to the tevinter mages by conversing with the old gods.
2)  We think that Urthemiel, the Dragon of Beauty is the archdemon of the current blight
3)  Flemeth is a powerful shapeshifter and mage that tapped into her powers when she conversed with a "demon" to reek revenge of her ex-husband, jealous lover, or whatever.  Doing so made her something more.
4)  It was Flemeths idea for Morrigan to create the god-child.

If you haven't pieced the theory together yet, here it is:
Flemeth is in fact not an abomination, but merely an extremely powerful mage that made a deal with Urthemiel.  The deal was great power for guaranteeing the entrance of Urthemiel into this world.  After all, what better way is there to learn how to change forms than from the dragon of beauty?  This explains Flemeths powers, how she knew about the dark ritual, and it doesn't rely on a very slim chance that a warden and flemeth's mother got together the night before fighting toth.  Also, we already know that a grey warden died for the final blow with toth.


I really think this is the highest likely scenario, unless someone else has something to refute this.

[Null]

I'm just throwing this out there, but maybe she's one of the magister lords that invaded the Golden City.

[Jassper]

I tend to agree, I never thought Flemoth was an arch daemon - If she was, she would have welcomed the blight. (unless the AD's are in competition).

I also tend to think that Flemoth has already taken over Moregon (sp?) she just don't know it yet (or maybe we don't). But I am sure that the "dark ritual" has something to do with it all. Flemoth was far to willing to just "let" you take the grimour.

I also have to wonder if DA:2 will be based on the majority ending uploaded at the end of the game - hummm

Modifié par Jassper, 05 décembre 2009 - 05:41 .

[Original182]

Mueller86 wrote...

I'm just throwing this out there, but maybe she's one of the magister lords that invaded the Golden City.

Wouldn't that make her a darkspawn herself? Then she should be at the front lines with the darkspawn.

[Ashlag]

Original182 wrote...

Mueller86 wrote...

I'm just throwing this out there, but maybe she's one of the magister lords that invaded the Golden City.

Wouldn't that make her a darkspawn herself? Then she should be at the front lines with the darkspawn.

according to the Chantry yes, but if the Chantry is wrong/lying, then the Magister Lords of Tevinter could have just died, or disapeared.

[Null]

Original182 wrote...

Mueller86 wrote...

I'm just throwing this out there, but maybe she's one of the magister lords that invaded the Golden City.

Wouldn't that make her a darkspawn herself? Then she should be at the front lines with the darkspawn.

I was just throwing it out there. We don't know for certain about the chantry's version on how the darkspawn came to the world, and even if it were true, it's not totally implausible for a powerful magister lord to avoid their fate.

Modifié par Mueller86, 05 décembre 2009 - 05:46 .

[Original182]

Mueller86 wrote...
I was just throwing it out there. We don't know for certain about the chantry's version on how the darkspawn came to the world, and even if it were true, it's not totally implausible for a powerful magister lord to avoid their fate.

Yeah but you gotta at least have a plausible theory. The Chantry is the only source of telvinter mages storming the Golden City, then turning into the first of the darkspawn. If you don't believe the Chantry, then the Golden City doesn't even exist in the first place then.

If you had said Flemeth is just a Telvinter mage, then maybe it's possible.

[Roxlimn]

Actually, I've always gotten the impression that Morrigan IS Flemeth and that the woman she left in the Wilds was just the soul of the real Morrigan in the old Flemeth's body.

[Majspuffen]

Well, she's absolutely not an archdemon. Because of the simple fact that if she was, the main character would die slaying her (although, just like Morrigan, I doubt she actually died in that battle).

I like reading theories, but I have no idea what to beileve myself. There's always something to question in each and every theory, it feels like.

[Taleroth]

Why can't she be just a powerful shapeshifting abomination? Seems simple, concise, and wholly explanatory.



The only significant suspicion I have is that she might have been a Grey Warden once, that's about it. Or at least was friends with one.

[Original182]

Roxlimn wrote...

Actually, I've always gotten the impression that Morrigan IS Flemeth and that the woman she left in the Wilds was just the soul of the real Morrigan in the old Flemeth's body.

But if you attacked the Flemeth in the Wilds, she could shapeshift into a dragon. Morrigan cannot possibly be that powerful.

[HarlequinDream]

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Flemeth has some connection to the archdemons, now that I think about it.



I mean, we've never heard of abominations passing from one host to another. Demons invade their bodies, yes, and desire demons can possess one, drain them, move on, etc. but Morrigan brings up the concern that if she goes with you to slay Flemeth, Flemeth will possess her then and there. Which is, really, what the archdemon does. It possesses a nearby tainted being and, it would seem, it can choose which.



I don't think she IS an archdemon, but there seems to be some kind of a connection.

[Hahren]

Blood magic was originally brought to the world by demons making deals for power etc... We do know that blood magic can be learned by reading tomes written on the subject. So you don't need a demon for it once the knowledge has been recorded.



Demons can possess others. Demons can change shape in the Fade. Others can learn to change shape in the Fade, and in the regular world too. Ergo the act of possession could just be another form of black magic that can be learned.



Maybe Flemeth isn't an abomination at all. Maybe she's just a very powerful mage with vast knowledge of forbidden spells. Maybe some of the spells are from demons, but others could be collected over her long life span.



Look at Avernus, and Zatharian too. Both extended their lifespans via black magic. They didn't go as far as possession, but in the case of Avernus I bet he would if he knew how.



I don't think Flemeth is possessed by anything. I think she enjoys all the folks tales about her existence because it gives her control.



Since BW has had some qoutes about Morrigan being the poster child for the DA universe I am willing to bet a sequel will involve her. Since the game is also "dark fantasy" I really doubt the game will choose any endings other than the ritual as it's canon. Though it may contain aspects of the many possible endings. We'll see.

[LightSabres]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...


3)  Flemeth is a powerful shapeshifter and mage that tapped into her powers when she conversed with a "demon" to reek revenge of her ex-husband, jealous lover, or whatever.  Doing so made her something more.

Actually according to Morrigan, Flemmeth talked to spirits first to get her revenge.  Her involvement with demons wasn't until later - I assume in the Korcari Wilds.

[HarlequinDream]

LightSabres wrote...

BigKevSexyMan wrote...


3)  Flemeth is a powerful shapeshifter and mage that tapped into her powers when she conversed with a "demon" to reek revenge of her ex-husband, jealous lover, or whatever.  Doing so made her something more.

Actually according to Morrigan, Flemmeth talked to spirits first to get her revenge.  Her involvement with demons wasn't until later - I assume in the Korcari Wilds.

Or that's Flemeth's story, at least.
It's hard to say, really, what's actually true where Morrigan and Flemeth are concerned.
After all, Flemeth prepared Morrigan to perform the dark ritual, which means Morrigan knew about it when she left with you. Flemeth also makes the remark that "Pretty Morrigan has finally found someone to dance to her tune" when you confront her about her plans for Morrigan. That almost makes it sound like Morrigan's tried to convince others to take on Flemeth...

[Jassper]

HarlequinDream wrote...

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Flemeth has some connection to the archdemons, now that I think about it.

I mean, we've never heard of abominations passing from one host to another. Demons invade their bodies, yes, and desire demons can possess one, drain them, move on, etc. but Morrigan brings up the concern that if she goes with you to slay Flemeth, Flemeth will possess her then and there. Which is, really, what the archdemon does. It possesses a nearby tainted being and, it would seem, it can choose which.

I don't think she IS an archdemon, but there seems to be some kind of a connection.

Morrigan doesn't know for sure that Flemeth will or even could at that point possess her. She just wants to be on the safe side. Besides I think that is more to the fact that she can't bring herself to kill her own mother.

What are the odds that Morrigan's child will be a girl?

It is also entirly possible that Morrigan and Flemeth are working together.

[andre_]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...
Flemeth is in fact not an abomination, but merely an extremely powerful mage that made a deal with Urthemiel. 

The Old Gods are imprisioned since the corruption of the Golden City. For your theory, that means she had to find him first. That doesn't make sense, because she could have just saved him then, without the darkspawn finding and corrupting it. The darkspawn is a thread to the whole world, neither the citizens of Thedas nor the Fade want that.

BigKevSexyMan wrote...
...and it doesn't rely on a very slim chance that a warden and flemeth's mother got together the night before fighting toth

Then why are Flemeth and Morrigan are still chasing that very plan? They want the substance of the Old God, and they want to use the child for that, because that will cleanse it of the taint.

[Roxlimn]

Original182:



Morrigan herself reveals enough about the process to say that the vessel matters. I think that Flemeth needs powerful vessels because some powers reside in the body, not in the spirit. So "Flemeth" would still be a powerful shapeshifter, and "Morrigan" would not be - all the more reason to keep "Flemeth" in the dark about how things are going.



It's plausible that Flemeth needed more time to mature Morrigan's body and skills to the point that she could take over and kill the old body easily, but the Blight forced her hand to do the transfer before it was really advisable.

[HarlequinDream]

And it's possible that part of Flemeth's plan of teaching Morrigan the ritual was because she figured Morrigan would return to her pregnant. Then, as it was probably not according to plan that Morrigan found out about the spirit jumping, Flemeth would be able to take over Morrigan... AND have a child with the soul of an old god for her next body if she raised the kid right, which she would.

[Dermain]

HarlequinDream wrote...

 Flemeth also makes the remark that "Pretty Morrigan has finally found someone to dance to her tune" when you confront her about her plans for Morrigan. That almost makes it sound like Morrigan's tried to convince others to take on Flemeth...

Well given from the relationship Flemeth and Morrigan seem to have had, Flemeth beating and mistreating Morrigan whenever she did something(also explained if you take Morrigan along to fight the Sloth demon in Broken Circle), it would be a logical conclusion that Morrigan would have tried to find someone/way to have Flemeth killed off before.

[Statulos]

Morrigan sometimes does not sound that fond of her own background. When Leliana asks her for stories, she mentions in a non pleased way about Flemeth mating, exhausting and killing men in that order and her as daughter being expected to do so once she´s mature.
And well, she does not sound like really liking it.

For the "been there, done that" from Flemeth; well, she´s kind of mad (old age takes its toll) and who knows, maybe she refeers to that happening to her previous daughters; not to Morrigan.

Modifié par Statulos, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:38 .

[Jemmori]

HarlequinDream wrote...

And it's possible that part of Flemeth's plan of teaching Morrigan the ritual was because she figured Morrigan would return to her pregnant. Then, as it was probably not according to plan that Morrigan found out about the spirit jumping, Flemeth would be able to take over Morrigan... AND have a child with the soul of an old god for her next body if she raised the kid right, which she would.

This.

[nuculerman]

All I know is; Sandal>Flemeth.

[BigKevSexyMan]

Ok, haven't been on a while so I'm gonna use some quote replies:

Why can't she be just a powerful shapeshifting abomination? Seems simple, concise, and wholly explanatory.

The only significant suspicion I have is that she might have been a Grey Warden once, that's about it. Or at least was friends with one.

Simply being a powerful abomination doesn't explain how she would know about the dark ritual.  Also, if she had been with a grey warden right before a blight, then she would already have the power of the old god, or an old god would currently be running around.

Blood magic was originally brought to the world by demons making deals for power etc... We do know that blood magic can be learned by reading tomes written on the subject. So you don't need a demon for it once the knowledge has been recorded.

I never said blood magic, I merely said powerful magics. http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Old_Gods

The Old Gods are imprisioned since the corruption of the Golden City. For your theory, that means she had to find him first. That doesn't make sense, because she could have just saved him then, without the darkspawn finding and corrupting it. The darkspawn is a thread to the whole world, neither the citizens of Thedas nor the Fade want that.

No, you have this completely wrong.  The Old gods were banished, or receded(whichever one you want to believe) long before the golden city incident.  It was during the "first sin" that the old gods were banished.  The far predates when the mages were told how to enter the golden city.  As that happened 170 after the "second sin" which was andraste's death.  Also, if you haven't read the previous wiki about the old gods, then you should know that there minds continue to roam the fade and can contact individuals.  In preparation for what is to happen, Urthemial could have contacted Flemeth through the fade and set up a plan to get past the whole corruption stuff.

Then why are Flemeth and Morrigan are still chasing that very plan? They want the substance of the Old God, and they want to use the child for that, because that will cleanse it of the taint.

I don't know what plan you're talking about.  It's pretty clear that it would had to have been a freak chance for that to happen the night before the final fight in the third blight, over two whole countries away.  Unless you're refering to something else.  I'm not getting the impression that you thought your arguement out right now, so by all mean, if you're reading this, then repost it a bit more clearly.

[thegreateski]

She's a greater pride demon abomination.