57 réponses à ce sujet

[BigKevSexyMan]

Of the many words to describe Flemeth. Overly prideful isn't one. Also, wouldn't it be more likely that if she were possessed by a demon it would be a spirit of vengeance or justice?



Also, the abomination theory, once again, doesn't explain her knowledge of the dark ritual.





Also, I remember somebody making a post earlier back about how the emblem on flemeth's grimoire was the same or similar to the emblem of the old tevinter mages. There are only two things that flemeth actually has with the tevinter mages. Both are mages, and both somehow have knowledge of the old gods.

[EricHVela]

She's one of the original darkspawn.

No?

No.

[thegreateski]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...

Of the many words to describe Flemeth. Overly prideful isn't one. Also, wouldn't it be more likely that if she were possessed by a demon it would be a spirit of vengeance or justice?

Also, the abomination theory, once again, doesn't explain her knowledge of the dark ritual.

Also, I remember somebody making a post earlier back about how the emblem on flemeth's grimoire was the same or similar to the emblem of the old tevinter mages. There are only two things that flemeth actually has with the tevinter mages. Both are mages, and both somehow have knowledge of the old gods.

Pride is just the facet of human conciousness that the Pride demons feed on to survive.

She's been alive for a VERY long time with nothing to do but gain power and have daughters in order to extend her life span. I'm sure she picked up on the ritual from a Tevinter mage that she bedded.
That or the demon that possesed her had the knowledge of the ritual. Demons seem to know a lot of things, blood magic and the Reaver class among them.

Everyone has knowledge of the old gods, it's part of the Chantry's religion.

Modifié par thegreateski, 07 décembre 2009 - 01:24 .

[BigKevSexyMan]

I''m sure she picked up on the ritual from a Tevinter mage that she bedded.

How exactly are you sure of that? If there were tevinter mages that knew about the ritual, then how come the grey wardens have NEVER heard of such a ritual and used it to their benefit?

That or the demon that possesed her had the knowledge of the ritual, demons seem to know a lot of things, blood magic and the Reaver class among them.

1) Demon's don't know the reaper class, it was the dragon cults that knew of it.

2) What type of spirit would actually know about such an obscure and random ritual, other than the old god themself?



And the chantry only has guesses to what the old gods actually are, especially since most tevinter documents were destroyed in the first blight. If fact, I doubt even the tevinter mages knew of the ritual. If they did, they would have performed the ritual themselves.

[Brockololly]

I think just about every idea/hypothesis regarding Morrigan/Flemeth has probably been discussed here:
http://social.bioware.com/group/622/

Modifié par Brockololly, 07 décembre 2009 - 01:36 .

[tigrina]

Well, if you are going to believe what the chantry says..



Anyway, what I find *really* interesting about Flemeth, is that she both in the book and in the game seems to know a bit about the future. I wonder where she got that trick from.

[thegreateski]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...

I''m sure she picked up on the ritual from a Tevinter mage that she bedded.

How exactly are you sure of that? If there were tevinter mages that knew about the ritual, then how come the grey wardens have NEVER heard of such a ritual and used it to their benefit?

That or the demon that possesed her had the knowledge of the ritual, demons seem to know a lot of things, blood magic and the Reaver class among them.

1) Demon's don't know the reaper class, it was the dragon cults that knew of it.
2) What type of spirit would actually know about such an obscure and random ritual, other than the old god themself?

And the chantry only has guesses to what the old gods actually are, especially since most tevinter documents were destroyed in the first blight. If fact, I doubt even the tevinter mages knew of the ritual. If they did, they would have performed the ritual themselves.

1. I'm not sure of anything, this entire thread is about theorys.
2. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Reaver
3. A Greater Pride demon, appearently they are just as or more powerful then an Archdemon.
4. Why? They weren't Grey Wardens.

Modifié par thegreateski, 07 décembre 2009 - 01:47 .

[BigKevSexyMan]

I think just about every idea/hypothesis regarding Morrigan/Flemeth has probably been discussed here:

http://social.bioware.com/group/622/

Thanks, but this is more about Flemeth than morrigan. Although it's kinda hard to think of one without the other.

I wonder where she got that trick from.

Writers convenience?

[BigKevSexyMan]

oops double post.  Anyone else notice these forums can update wierd?

1. I'm not sure of anything, this entire thread is about theorys.
2. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Reaver
3. A Greater Pride demon, appearently they are just as or more powerful then an Archdemon.
4. Why? They weren't Grey Wardens.

1) Fair enough, but it'd be nice to give reasons tied to the codex or at least the wiki

2) That has to be a typo or something not corrected for the final version. We are given absolutely no evidence that demons are involved in being a reaver. Other than "Demons can teach more than just blood magic." I just don't see a relation. Anyways, it's somewhat irrelevant to the major point I'm trying to make here.

3) I strongly doubt that. I've fought GPDs and the Archdemon. Archdemon definitely wins.

4)  There were when there were blights.

Modifié par BigKevSexyMan, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:03 .

[thegreateski]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...

oops double post.  Anyone else notice these forums can update wierd?

1. I'm not sure of anything, this entire thread is about theorys.
2. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Reaver
3. A Greater Pride demon, appearently they are just as or more powerful then an Archdemon.
4. Why? They weren't Grey Wardens.

1) Fair enough, but it'd be nice to give reasons tied to the codex or at least the wiki

2) That has to be a typo or something not corrected for the final version. We are given absolutely no evidence that demons are involved in being a reaver. Other than "Demons can teach more than just blood magic." I just don't see a relation. Anyways, it's somewhat irrelevant to the major point I'm trying to make here.

3) I strongly doubt that. I've fought GPDs and the Archdemon. Archdemon definitely wins.

4)  There were when there were blights.

1.Yes it would.
2. The relation doesn't make sense to me either but I'll stick by the "official" explanation until it's changed.
3. not talking about a straight up battle, more about how much damage they can inflict on the world.
4. But how would it benefit the Imperium to save one man?

[BigKevSexyMan]

3. not talking about a straight up battle, more about how much damage they can inflict on the world.

But how much damage they can do is completely unrelated to a GPD having intimate knowledge of a being largely beyond it's scope of comprehension.

4. But how would it benefit the Imperium to save one man?

To them it would be about saving the old god. It would surprise me that this supposed tevinter mage knew about the dark ritual and had NO connection to the old gods. Let's face it. It's a baseless theory born from another baseless theory.

[Xantor_Stromgate]

Original182 wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

Actually, I've always gotten the impression that Morrigan IS Flemeth and that the woman she left in the Wilds was just the soul of the real Morrigan in the old Flemeth's body.

But if you attacked the Flemeth in the Wilds, she could shapeshift into a dragon. Morrigan cannot possibly be that powerful.

Morrigan IS Flemeth. The story of Flemeth is that she has a child then enters the body. This explaines why Morrigan tries to have a child at the end of the game, correct? Plus, just look at the eyes!!! It's like those multiple choice questions in school: You could eliminate half of the answers due to grammar alone.

[thegreateski]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...

3. not talking about a straight up battle, more about how much damage they can inflict on the world.

But how much damage they can do is completely unrelated to a GPD having intimate knowledge of a being largely beyond it's scope of comprehension.

4. But how would it benefit the Imperium to save one man?

To them it would be about saving the old god. It would surprise me that this supposed tevinter mage knew about the dark ritual and had NO connection to the old gods. Let's face it. It's a baseless theory born from another baseless theory.

1. Demons in general live in the Fade right? People go to the Fade when they dream right? It's not a stretch to say this demon could have learned it from a mage in the dream world. That or the demon came up with it themself during the (billions?) of years that they spent sitting around the Fade before the first blight.

1.1 Well, Flemeth knew about the ritual and she's a demon for sure, she either learned it from someone or came up with a method to extend someones lifespan beyond death (saving the old god) (Flemeth posessing her daughters) on her own.

3. Why would the imperium save an old god who in their eyes either abandoned them or was beat down by a superior god.

Then again this entire thread is about theorys.

Modifié par thegreateski, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:28 .

[BigKevSexyMan]

1. Demons in general live in the Fade right? People go to the Fade when they dream right? It's not a stretch to say this demon could have learned it from a mage in the dream world. That or the demon came up with it themself during the (billions?) of years that they spent sitting around the Fade before the first blight.

I'm gonna try to do this point by point. It's really getting tiring. Most of your stuff is just irrelevant or has little to nothing backing it up.



1) How could a demon know about how to bypass the blight, before the blight even existed? It couldn't, that's how.

2) How could a tevinter mage know, if a demon didn't know? By being told by an old god. If a tevinter mage was in possession of that knowledge, then that tevinter mage would have gone through and made it happen by now. Either by extending his life through magic, or seeking out an old god cult to pass the secret on.

1.1 Well, Flemeth knew about the ritual and she's a demon for sure, she either learned it from someone or came up with a method to extend someones lifespan beyond death (saving the old god) (Flemeth posessing her daughters) on her own.

1) Flemeth being a demon is mostly hearsay through old stories and her powers.

2) Or how about the only logical being*(old god) that could know about the ritual told her about it and gave her the means to achieve the goal. Not an demon that heard it from a mage that heard it from an old god, or another mage, or maybe another demon, but that just puts things in a loop now doesn't it. The simplest solution is often the correct one, and mine is by far the simplest. For the abomination theory you have to invent two or three other, partly unfounded steps.

3. Why would the imperium save an old god who in their eyes either abandoned them or was beat down by a superior god.

You really haven't read anything about the old gods and tevinter, have you?

1) Tevinter has always worshiped the old gods. There are cults out there right now that still do. Partly due to a skepticism towards the Maker's existence.

2) If the old gods did burrow themselves into the earth, it was long before the blight. Yet worship still continued, so it obviously wasn't a big deal.

[EJ42]

I don't think Morrigan is actually having a child.

I think Flemeth did what Morrigan was trying to do, but in an earlier blight. When Alistair speaks about the PC being the first Grey Warden to survive slaying the archdemon, he says, "Since......400 years ago." That makes me wonder if Flemeth didn't absorb the spirit of the previous archdemon, obliterating the unborn child, and allowing her to take all of its power.

Maybe that's why Morrigan wanted to leave. There isn't going to be a child. She simply used the child as a conduit to absorb the "Old God's" essence/power. Perhaps that alone is enough to make her nearly immortal.

I'm thinking Flemeth never intended to take over Morrigan's body. As Morrigan said herself, she could take on the form of another human, but why would she want to? Perhaps Flemeth merely looks to be old.

I think Morrigan truly is Flemeth's daughter, and Flemeth wanted her to absorb the spirit of another Old God just as she did before. The thing is that Morrigan decided to get Flemeth out of the way so that she wouldn't have an equal.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Regarding the ritual taking place before, perhaps the ritual is the lifespan trick.



Remember Flemeth's response to the PC stating that Morrigan knew of how she extended her life.



"Yes she does, the question is, do you?"



I agree with the idea that they are BOTH Tevinter mages looking to bring the old gods back to the world untainted and see an end to the chantry.



The Tevinter worshipped the Dragons as gods, so that would mean spending a lot of time with them and thus learning how to shapeshift into them. Morrigan in her current life cycle is at too young an age to learn and be able to shift into such a beast.



The Dark Ritual could easily be just as much as transferring the essence of Flemeth/Morrigan into the new child, thus yes the ritual has been done before as Flemeth/Morrigans essence would no doubt seek that of one of its own, so same applies to the essence of the old god.



I reckon the previous wardens spurned Flemeth/Morrigan in the last 2 blights (Flemeth was allegedly born just before the 3rd), seeing it as unethical and due to their time in the wardens probably had a better idea of what they were trying to achieve. Perfect opportunity right now then considering the 2 remaining wardens going up against the blight are rookies.

[BigKevSexyMan]

I doubt the theory as the old gods power simply being absorbed. The ending says that the woman heading into the mountains was with child. I don't think the writers would simply be referring to a random woman, but I guess stranger things have happened.

[Statulos]

EJ42 wrote...

I don't think Morrigan is actually having a child.
I think Flemeth did what Morrigan was trying to do, but in an earlier blight. When Alistair speaks about the PC being the first Grey Warden to survive slaying the archdemon, he says, "Since......400 years ago." That makes me wonder if Flemeth didn't absorb the spirit of the previous archdemon, obliterating the unborn child, and allowing her to take all of its power.
Maybe that's why Morrigan wanted to leave. There isn't going to be a child. She simply used the child as a conduit to absorb the "Old God's" essence/power. Perhaps that alone is enough to make her nearly immortal.
I'm thinking Flemeth never intended to take over Morrigan's body. As Morrigan said herself, she could take on the form of another human, but why would she want to? Perhaps Flemeth merely looks to be old.
I think Morrigan truly is Flemeth's daughter, and Flemeth wanted her to absorb the spirit of another Old God just as she did before. The thing is that Morrigan decided to get Flemeth out of the way so that she wouldn't have an equal.

Taking that approach I´ll laugh my ass if Morrigan gives birth to her own mother who, somehow, is reincarnated with the newborn kid; being your own grandmother is just amazing.

[Riot Inducer]

Jassper wrote...
What are the odds that Morrigan's child will be a girl?

Pretty darn good I'd say, considering that Morrigan's ritual made 100% certain she'd get pregnant from one time with a Grey Warden (it's been stated in several places that the taint nearly renders them sterile) it' seems if she could be certain of that much she could also likely choose what gender the child would be.

[Lotion Soronarr]

How does Flemeth even know abot the Grey Wardens (taint)?



Isn't that supposed to be a secret?

[tigrina]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How does Flemeth even know abot the Grey Wardens (taint)?

Isn't that supposed to be a secret?

Wynne also knows, so apparently it isn't that secret. Besides, Flemeth knows a lot of things she shouldn't know.

[KilrB]

You cannot put your faith in anything you have been told about Flemeth and Morrigan, especially by either of them.

They have nothing to gain revealing their secrets to you.

New theory (AFAIK) :

Flemeth and Morrigan are twins sisters who have found a way to extend their lives by alternately being each others mother/daughter.

They arrange for the "mother" to die shortly before the "daughter" becomes pregnant, her spirit/soul waiting in the Fade for the moment to become the new child.

Their extended lives have afforded them plenty of opportunity to meet a lot of interesting people/entities and amass a staggering wealth of knowledge.

Modifié par KilrB, 07 décembre 2009 - 04:29 .

[nuculerman]

 Did no one take Morrigan to the Fade?  Is your theory that she knew you were walking in so compelled the spirit to act like you'd expect her mother to treat her???  Seriously.  

We know from the Fade that Morrigan was typically beaten as a child by Flemeth.  The simplest explanation is usually the right one.  Flemeth is a hybrid abomination, kind of like Wynne, only instead of being inhabited by a benevolent spirit, she's inhabited by a spirit with an evil sense of humor.  

Whether or not she actually inhabits her daughters bodies is obviously up for debate, but Morrigan and Flemeth are equals or sisters???  Please.