167 réponses à ce sujet

[deathwing200]

Ok, I realize the dead horse is beaten nearly to death, but hear me out. Bioware has said that lack of stam pots is basically WAI (working as intended, for those who don't play Blizzard games). My complaint is that it is exactly what games should never do: regress back to outdated system. In this case we're regressing back to DnD with situation being reversed.

I will use the example of NWN2 and its spells-per-day casting system. That system left casters gimped because there was no way to restore spells in battle (resting didn't work with enemies close by), That meant that in a long dungeon where resting was either difficult or prohibited completely, your caster was reduced to casting gimped spells from wands or plinking away with X-Bow. Melee didn't have this problem - because their abilities were limited by cooldowns and their resource - the HP bar could be replenished out of combat with med kits and in combat with potions. Both were infinite and cheap. Problem? I think so.

Enter Dragon Age. Potions are unlimited and casting system is mana based. We've finally achieved melee/caster balance, right? Wrong. The situation did a complete 180 and now melee find themselves gimped in longer fights due to Bio's infinite wisdom of tying warrior specials to stamina and then having no way to replenish it in combat. While casters spam their abilities throughout the fight because they no longer care about mana (just like NWN2 warriors, their spells are essentially balanced by recharge timers, not the resource itself), melee become simple auto attackers. This is where the "omg melee are weak" stems from and it needs to be addressed. It's not fun for melee player to autoattack 30 seconds into battle and it is a major reason why casters are so powerful.


Don't get me wrong. I think stamina is "fun" concept. However the implementation of it at the moment is a bit flawed. It needs to be rehauled to always allow player to do something during combat, not just autoswing.

Suggestions:

1) Drastically increase stamina regeneration in combat. Abilities consume more stamina. That means there is a decision making process involved in which ability to use in different situation and thus more skill involved in melee combat. If anyone here played WoW rogue, the energy concept is exactly what I am desribing. Specials consume a lot of stamina, but it regenerates very quickly.

2) Introduce stamina potions - it's a simple concept and the materials are already in the game

3) Remove stamina completely - abilities' balance is kept in check by recharge timers.

[pokemaughan]

I stopped at you thinking that DnD rules are a problem.

[deathwing200]

pokemaughan wrote...

I stopped at you thinking that DnD rules are a problem.

DnD casting system is terrible when translated into video game format. Why?

PnP DnD is balanced around 4 encounters per day.

NWN series have 10 times more combat (literally 10 times, mobs only give 10% XP compared to PnP game). There's one catch though: the spells per day were not increased.

Do you see a problem here? DnD casting system was an absolute failure for CRPGs.

[Torias]

Or, raise your willpower.



Rogues and Warriors get a lot more passive abilities that increase their auto-attack capabilities than mages do. It's just a different landscape.



If you want to use lots of abilities, raise your willpower, don't start with all your sustained abilities active (activate them after you've used your active abilities... it's much more stamina efficient).

[deathwing200]

Torias wrote...

Or, raise your willpower.

Mages do not need willpower because of potions. They can pump magic stat and get damage instead. Amusingly magic also increases the amount of mana gained from potions, so they lose nothing. Why the double standard for melee? Edit: Melee already have to spread their stats more than mages. My mage survives by CC spells and micro, so I don't pump constitution. Melee has to. No amount of skill will save you from getting hit. And if you have low life, you can get 2 shot before you react.

Rogues and Warriors get a lot more passive abilities that increase their auto-attack capabilities than mages do. It's just a different landscape.

"Different classes are different" is what you're basically saying. Okay, I get that and I agree. However I do not agree that current implementation of game's resource system of Mana vs Stamina is balanced.

If you want to use lots of abilities, raise your willpower, don't start with all your sustained abilities active (activate them after you've used your active abilities... it's much more stamina efficient).

Like I addressed before, when mages need spell, they can use cheap potions. Why should melee gimp themselves with willpower when they could be focusing on DPS stats?

Modifié par deathwing200, 05 décembre 2009 - 05:44 .

[pokemaughan]

deathwing200 wrote...

pokemaughan wrote...

I stopped at you thinking that DnD rules are a problem.

DnD casting system is terrible when translated into video game format. Why?

PnP DnD is balanced around 4 encounters per day.

NWN series have 10 times more combat (literally 10 times, mobs only give 10% XP compared to PnP game). There's one catch though: the spells per day were not increased.

Do you see a problem here? DnD casting system was an absolute failure for CRPGs.

I suppose, but I still think DnD rules are far superior to the odd mash up we have in Dragon Age. Not that Dragon Age is supposed to be a DnD game...

[Pennoyer]

For min/maxers, pumping points into an "endurance" stat is probably a painful task.

[deathwing200]

Pennoyer wrote...

For min/maxers, pumping points into an "endurance" stat is probably a painful task.

^ this 100%

[Bibdy]

Agree completely with the exception of potions. The current system is really limiting on melee characters. Basically all 3 characters operate on a mana system. You run into a fight, with a finite resource and have to use your abilities very carefully, or you find yourself out of stamina when you might need to Pommel Strike a warhound off a friendly (or equivalent). Big difference is, Mages have tons of potions to pop, too. But, I'm not a big fan of consumables at any rate. I'd rather leave potions to mages, with low regen rates, and no potions for melee, with high regen rates.

It feels like using stamina on anything that doesn't CC somebody is a waste, because the 'bonus' damage you get for using a special ability that only damages, or weakens the target's attack or defense isn't worth it (especially when they only lower attack/defense by something like 10, tops) compared to saving stamina for CC effects like Riposte, Two-Hand Sweep etc. That, and using a special turns off auto-attack, so something like mighty blow might be a crit...but it cost you a normal melee swing anyway, so the damage difference there, for anywhere from 1/2 to 1/3 of your stamina pool is horrendously small.

There's too much emphasis on total damage output on auto-attack damage, and not enough on special abilities, so the CCing special abilities end up being the 'smart' thing to save your stamina for.

Fights as melee could be a lot more interesting, if regen and costs were both much higher, At the very least with a system like that, its actually worth having more tactic slots, because your allies will be able to make USE of those tactics. You can't have melee tactics where a character will use a couple of damage abilities at will, because they'll just drain themselves of stamina insanely fast, turning themselves into auto-attack bots.

Another thing I don't like is being able to turn on Sustained abilities when you're completely dry. That just promotes the same behaviour of 'blowing your load' early on, then turning into an auto-attack bot, to get the most out of everything.

It wasn't the best combat style in BG1/2, its transferred over to DA:O and I'm not particularly fond of it. Where's the tactics in bursting through the door, unleashing hell on earth, and then mopping up the remainder with auto-attacks? I'd much rather have a system where I have to make a decision which ability I want to use NOW, and then be locked out of everything for a short while, switch to another character, make another decision, switch to another character, make another decision and so on, or just let the AI tactics do the decisions for me, either way, the way I control my character would be occasional moments of "ooh I can do something now. What should I pick? Mmmm, how about a little of THIS!" multiple times stretched out over a fight, rather than "Okay, which combination AOE damage and AOE CC should I unleash off the bat to obliterate this pack of tightly grouped baddies?".

Modifié par Bibdy, 05 décembre 2009 - 05:54 .

[hexaligned]

Exact opposite of what they need to do. You don't see mages needing only one stat as a problem? Why even have a stat system? Unlimited casting? Might as well just give everyone an instant IWIN button, then combat will require no thought or character building at all. You want to use more abilites as a war or rogue, pump your willpower, no reason to completely break all aspects of combat or character develpment (instead of just having broken mages, like we do now)

[soteria]

I'm not even going to comment on the DnD comparison except to say I'm glad DA:O doesn't use those rules.



But yes, I agree with the willpower issue. Rogues and warriors, far more than mages, suffer from "MAD" (multiple attribute dependency). Rogues need strength to use weapons and wear armor, dexterity to hit and get talents, and cunning for damage and talents. Warriors need strength, constitution, and dexterity in varying amounts depending on the build. Mages need... magic, and that's pretty much it.



My solution in-game is to have mages cast Rejuvenation on the warriors/rogues and just use lyrium potions. I'm not entirely pleased with the situation, though, since on paper warriors, rogues, and mages should all want willpower and use a very similar resource. In practice mages have infinite resources and warriors and rogues have to pace themselves in addition to making some investment into willpower.

[Osprey39]

deathwing200 wrote...

pokemaughan wrote...

I stopped at you thinking that DnD rules are a problem.

DnD casting system is terrible when translated into video game format. Why?

PnP DnD is balanced around 4 encounters per day.

NWN series have 10 times more combat (literally 10 times, mobs only give 10% XP compared to PnP game). There's one catch though: the spells per day were not increased.

Do you see a problem here? DnD casting system was an absolute failure for CRPGs.

Well seeing as how I played through NWN2 as a Druid/Stormlord and I was the best character in my party, I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

[deathwing200]

Come to think of it the entire concept of potion popping feels lame. It would be much better if the game was designed with potion being on very long timers and very expensive, reserved for "oh crap" situations. Then give casters a way to function without running out of mana in a few seconds. There are limitless ideas for example:

1) Concept of sacrifice - sacrifice HP for mana - this ability already exists, but the CD is way too restrictive

2) Concept of clearcasting - X% for your next spell to be cast for 0 mana within next 10 seconds.

3) Concept of situational mana regen - your mana regen is increased by 500% for 10 seconds, but all spells do -50% damage

There are limitless possibilities that can be created when designing combat, it was a bit disappointing to see it "fixed" with limitless potions.

Modifié par deathwing200, 05 décembre 2009 - 06:00 .

[Sidney]

My DW rarely ran out of stamina exception in the occasional really long fight but then again my typical effort was to hit bad guy X with a special then my auto-attacks and allies finished him off since there is no edge to wounding a lot of people over killing 1. Then move on the the next use a specil attack and repeat.



Never struck me that I couldn't "reload" the way the mages can but then again my auto-attack was useful in a way that the mages staff isn't.

[Skye Kross]

hmm a suggestion, why not make willpower regenerates stamina and mana, well i know this will grimp warriors and rogues but changing mana and stamina potion into regen enhancers maybe +25-50%?? so higher willpower the better the potion.
well not a big regen, something like. willpower 10 = .5% regen of max mana or stamina and 20 is like 4.5% total mana. sorry im not good at this. but its just a thought

edit: typo

Modifié par Skye Kross, 05 décembre 2009 - 06:08 .

[soteria]

relhart wrote...

Exact opposite of what they need to do. You don't see mages needing only one stat as a problem? Why even have a stat system? Unlimited casting? Might as well just give everyone an instant IWIN button, then combat will require no thought or character building at all. You want to use more abilites as a war or rogue, pump your willpower, no reason to completely break all aspects of combat or character develpment (instead of just having broken mages, like we do now)

Because if mages are broken, as you say, the solution is totally to leave them that way, instead of fixing them.

[deathwing200]

Sidney wrote...



Never struck me that I couldn't "reload" the way the mages can but then again my auto-attack was useful in a way that the mages staff isn't.

Mage staff is actually underrated. With mastery + hexes it does quite good damage, has obscene range and has 100% accuracy. The only reason it's not used is because spamming spells is better. When playing solo, I used staff a LOT.

[Osprey39]

deathwing200 wrote...

Mages do not need willpower because of potions. They can pump magic stat and get damage instead. Amusingly magic also increases the amount of mana gained from potions, so they lose nothing. Why the double standard for melee? Edit: Melee already have to spread their stats more than mages. My mage survives by CC spells and micro, so I don't pump constitution. Melee has to. No amount of skill will save you from getting hit. And if you have low life, you can get 2 shot before you react.

Wrong again or maybe you just have incredibly slow reaction time.  My rogue has 11 constitution.  I don't get 2 shot...ever.  I can quite easily stealth or Feign Death before I die.  

I also do amazing damage without active abilities.  in fact, there are only 4 active damage abilities that I use regularly:  Dual Weapon Sweep, Whirlwind, Frenzy and Below the Belt.  I only use Whirlwind for multiple targets.  I use DWS for multiple targets and when I want to burn something down quickly because it will hit between auto-attacks.  I use Frenzy to get multiple crits on a target when I don't have Momentum going.  Below the Belt I only use immediately following and auto-attack because you can land it in between them for extra damage.  Other than that, I don't bother with them.  Auto-attack with Momentum up and in backstab position is more damaging than any of my active abilities.

[deathwing200]

Osprey39 wrote...

Wrong again or maybe you just have incredibly slow reaction time.  My rogue has 11 constitution.  I don't get 2 shot...ever.  I can quite easily stealth or Feign Death before I die.  

Are you on easy difficulty? You NEED HPs as melee. There are many situations when you can't rely on potions, healers or stealth to save you. (Example: your healer is paralyzed, your rogue is grabbed/overwhelmed/rammed etc)

Post your character screenshot too, I am eager to see your 11 con rogue with zero injuries.

[Osprey39]

deathwing200 wrote...

Come to think of it the entire concept of potion popping feels lame. It would be much better if the game was designed with potion being on very long timers and very expensive, reserved for "oh crap" situations. Then give casters a way to function without running out of mana in a few seconds. There are limitless ideas for example:

1) Concept of sacrifice - sacrifice HP for mana - this ability already exists, but the CD is way too restrictive

2) Concept of clearcasting - X% for your next spell to be cast for 0 mana within next 10 seconds.

3) Concept of situational mana regen - your mana regen is increased by 500% for 10 seconds, but all spells do -50% damage

There are limitless possibilities that can be created when designing combat, it was a bit disappointing to see it "fixed" with limitless potions.

If limitless potions bothers you so much, you could just not buy lyrium dust from the Circle quartermaster.  I think you will find lyrium potions much more precious if you do that.  I didn't notice that vendor had limitless dust on my first playthrough (as a mage) and I treated the pots I did have like they were gold.

[Hardin4188]

I think it's fine as it is. Just give your characters a decent amount of willpower and have a healer cast reguvination and mass reguvination. It can be a problem for the early game when you don't have a complete party yet, but overall it works out.

[Osprey39]

deathwing200 wrote...

Osprey39 wrote...

Wrong again or maybe you just have incredibly slow reaction time.  My rogue has 11 constitution.  I don't get 2 shot...ever.  I can quite easily stealth or Feign Death before I die.  

Are you on easy difficulty? You NEED HPs as melee. There are many situations when you can't rely on potions, healers or stealth to save you. (Example: your healer is paralyzed, your rogue is grabbed/overwhelmed/rammed etc)

Post your character screenshot too, I am eager to see your 11 con rogue with zero injuries.

I didn't say I never died (I do but it's rare.)  I said it's easy to stealth or FD before you die.  First off, I don't get agro that much because I start every fight stealthed.  Secondly, I don't attack heavy armor targets that I can't kill quickly unless they are taunted.  You're a rogue, not a tank.  You shouldn't try to play like a tank.  Oh, and I have only played the game on hard mode fyi.

[Pennoyer]

Osprey39 wrote...


If limitless potions bothers you so much, you could just not buy lyrium dust from the Circle quartermaster.  I think you will find lyrium potions much more precious if you do that.  I didn't notice that vendor had limitless dust on my first playthrough (as a mage) and I treated the pots I did have like they were gold.

I dislike using self-imposed limitations like this to get past gameplay mechanics I may not like.  I don't really mind the potion thing, but to ask someone to just "use less potions!" is not really going to make them happy.

[deathwing200]

Pennoyer wrote...

Osprey39 wrote...


If limitless potions bothers you so much, you could just not buy lyrium dust from the Circle quartermaster.  I think you will find lyrium potions much more precious if you do that.  I didn't notice that vendor had limitless dust on my first playthrough (as a mage) and I treated the pots I did have like they were gold.

I dislike using self-imposed limitations like this to get past gameplay mechanics I may not like.  I don't really mind the potion thing, but to ask someone to just "use less potions!" is not really going to make them happy.

Pretty much. The only self imposed limitation that I ever place on myself is to not use obvious bugs.

[soteria]

Pennoyer wrote...

Osprey39 wrote...


If limitless potions bothers you so much, you could just not buy lyrium dust from the Circle quartermaster.  I think you will find lyrium potions much more precious if you do that.  I didn't notice that vendor had limitless dust on my first playthrough (as a mage) and I treated the pots I did have like they were gold.

I dislike using self-imposed limitations like this to get past gameplay mechanics I may not like.  I don't really mind the potion thing, but to ask someone to just "use less potions!" is not really going to make them happy.

Agreed.  I never cared for the whole, "The game is unbalanced?  WELL THEN PLAY WORSE, DUH," argument.