167 réponses à ce sujet

[Osprey39]

Pennoyer wrote...

Osprey39 wrote...


If limitless potions bothers you so much, you could just not buy lyrium dust from the Circle quartermaster.  I think you will find lyrium potions much more precious if you do that.  I didn't notice that vendor had limitless dust on my first playthrough (as a mage) and I treated the pots I did have like they were gold.

I dislike using self-imposed limitations like this to get past gameplay mechanics I may not like.  I don't really mind the potion thing, but to ask someone to just "use less potions!" is not really going to make them happy.

Lots of tabletop D&D games have 'house rules' that augment what's in the official rules.  The bottomline is, unless you make your own game, there are probably always going to be things you don't like.  Some can be worked around with self-imposed limitations and I don't see why that is such a horrible thing in this case.  

In NWN 1 & 2, I didn't like how easy it was to rest by simply running off a short distance from the nearest mobs so I didn't do it.  If I couldn't rest where I was, I didn't rest.  It made the game more fun for me.

  In this game, I see many people complaining about how powerful mages are and how limitless mana potions are a problem.  I gave a simple solution.  Don't buy dust at the tower.  If you follow that advice, you will find that there are enough potions and enough dust available from other places to get through the game but it makes playing a mage much more challenging.  I don't see why someone wouldn't want to do that if they think those things are issues unless they just like ****ing and being miserable.

Modifié par Osprey39, 05 décembre 2009 - 06:29 .

[TastyLaksa]

Pennoyer wrote...

Osprey39 wrote...


If limitless potions bothers you so much, you could just not buy lyrium dust from the Circle quartermaster.  I think you will find lyrium potions much more precious if you do that.  I didn't notice that vendor had limitless dust on my first playthrough (as a mage) and I treated the pots I did have like they were gold.

I dislike using self-imposed limitations like this to get past gameplay mechanics I may not like.  I don't really mind the potion thing, but to ask someone to just "use less potions!" is not really going to make them happy.

So you prefer complaining about it and hoping the developers will convert it into version 2 which you will again complain about?

[Loetek]

deathwing200 wrote...

Ok, I realize the dead horse is beaten nearly to death,

I stopped right there... my brain almost short circuited...

[Sylvius the Mad]

deathwing200 wrote...

The situation did a complete 180 and now melee find themselves gimped in longer fights due to Bio's infinite wisdom of tying warrior specials to stamina and then having no way to replenish it in combat.

Deep Mushrooms don't count?

[Skye Kross]

deep mushrooms its more like a waste of actions, you eat like 4 or more to be able to do skills.

DA: journeys have that soothing balm. dunno why its not here

[hexaligned]

Skye Kross wrote...

deep mushrooms its more like a waste of actions, you eat like 4 or more to be able to do skills.
DA: journeys have that soothing balm. dunno why its not here

They aren't in for the same reason mana pots shouldn't be, it would make the whole stat system completely pointless.  Hell mana pots already completely negate any use for mages pumping anything but mag, not to mention you don't need const for any of your chars, since you can just heal indefinetly.  I'm sure there are plenty of Godmode console commands, if you guys really don't want to have build balanced chars.

[Setz69]

Why are you we still comparing mages to melee? Yes mages are a better/easier class to play. No you don't have to play one. Yes you can still beat the game just fine being a warrior/rogue. You aren't playing against anyone else, you don't need to play the 'best' pew pew class to win. Its just you and the computer monsters. No need to compare dmg, compare playability, or even bring in the word "unbalanced". Why should it be balanced? Your not in a contest, your not facing anyone else. Play the game how you want to, not the cookie cutter 'best' class.

Skill spamming as a rogue/warrior would be senseless anyways, as if your dps'ing with a rogue you should be backstabbing with auto attack, and if your using a warrior, using auto attack to get crits, and only using your abilities for situational events.

And you can't even compare DnD spells-per-day to the stamina system here.

DnD: Couldn't rest the ENTIRE dungeon, needed to be quite conservative.

DA:O: Regain stamina as SOON as your out of battle. Only need to be conservative in big battles.

Plus theres alot of gear that gives + stam and + stam regain in battle. Mix that with your healers mass rejevunate (I think thats the spell) and your laughing.

Modifié par Setz69, 05 décembre 2009 - 07:19 .

[Gliese]

The problem is hardly with stamina. The way it currently works warriors can get useful returns from str, dex and wil and rogues can add cunning to that list, all dependant on build.
Mages should from a tactical standpoint never put any points into anything but magic.
So I think the problem lies with mana potions, they should either be removed or become much rarer, more expensive whathaveyou. Also the effectiveness of potions should not be tied to the magic attribute.

Since con is the least useful overall (no class really wants to invest here) it should be beefed. Perhaps 7hp and double the physical resistance (ie 1-1) would do the trick.

Modifié par Gliese, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:36 .

[deathwing200]

Setz69 wrote...

Why are you we still comparing mages to melee? Yes mages are a better/easier class to play. No you don't have to play one. Yes you can still beat the game just fine being a warrior/rogue. You aren't playing against anyone else, you don't need to play the 'best' pew pew class to win. Its just you and the computer monsters. No need to compare dmg, compare playability, or even bring in the word "unbalanced". Why should it be balanced? Your not in a contest, your not facing anyone else. Play the game how you want to, not the cookie cutter 'best' class.

Just because it's a SP game, doesn't mean that some classes should worse than others. No, I am not competing against anyone, but it doesn't matter. Saying that it doesn't matter that some mechanics are clearly broken shows that you're either a troll or some RP ****** playing the game on easy. It was up to Bioware to make the combat interesting and skill driven for every class. It wasn't even a question of balance. Right now only mages are fun to play. That is a problem.

Skill spamming as a rogue/warrior would be senseless anyways, as if your dps'ing with a rogue you should be backstabbing with auto attack, and if your using a warrior, using auto attack to get crits, and only using your abilities for situational events.

Thus the propsal to make them less senseless and more fun. Melee simply relying on auto attacks is an outdated concept. We should be making decisions every second such as managing cooldowns and using abilities, not simply auto attacking.

And you can't even compare DnD spells-per-day to the stamina system here.

DnD: Couldn't rest the ENTIRE dungeon, needed to be quite conservative.

DA:O: Regain stamina as SOON as your out of battle. Only need to be conservative in big battles.

The concept is similar. In DnD - caster runs out of spells with no way to replenish. In DAO melee runs out of stamina with no way to replenish. The scale might be different, but the idea is the same.

Plus theres alot of gear that gives + stam and + stam regain in battle. Mix that with your healers mass rejevunate (I think thats the spell) and your laughing.

I'll repeat myself: we shouldn't gimp ourselves with gear or stat distribution to compensate for bad design.

Modifié par deathwing200, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:29 .

[Osprey39]

[quote]deathwing200 wrote...

[quote]Setz69 wrote...

Why are you we still comparing mages to melee? Yes mages are a better/easier class to play. No you don't have to play one. Yes you can still beat the game just fine being a warrior/rogue. You aren't playing against anyone else, you don't need to play the 'best' pew pew class to win. Its just you and the computer monsters. No need to compare dmg, compare playability, or even bring in the word "unbalanced". Why should it be balanced? Your not in a contest, your not facing anyone else. Play the game how you want to, not the cookie cutter 'best' class.[/quote]

Just because it's a SP game, doesn't mean that some classes should worse than others. No, I am not competing against anyone, but it doesn't matter. Saying that it doesn't matter that some mechanics are clearly broken shows that you're either a troll or some RP ****** playing the game on easy. It was up to Bioware to make the combat interesting and skill driven for every class. It wasn't even a question of balance. [/quote][/quote]

Deathwing, why do you insult people that don't agree with you and think they must be playing on easy because they can make something work that you can't?  Are you incapable of having a discussion without ad hominem attacks?  

[quote]Right now only mages are fun to play. That is a problem.[/quote]

I already told you that I have only played the game on hard and I am currently playing through with a rogue (level 20 as of last night.)  Not only do I not think what you're complaining about is a problem, I think my rogue is way more fun to play than my mage was.  I'm not alone in that either.  Someone put a post up about what needed to be 'fixed' on rogues yesterday and almost all the suggestions were cosmetic in nature.  Rogues freaking rock if you play them correctly.  They are very fun to play.

You asked earlier for a screenshot of my rogue with 11 con, well here's the link:
social.bioware.com/playerprofile.php


I have 29 injuries but I think only 27 of those are from dying because I know I got 2 injuries from picking items up out of chests in a certain area of the game.  I don't think that is too bad considering you die very easily as a rogue early on in the game and I know I don't seem to die very often now that I have the character all fleshed out.

Modifié par Osprey39, 05 décembre 2009 - 01:18 .

[Matthew Young CT]

Stamina is FINE. Regen it with items & rejuvenate spells.

And remove mana pots. Just so broken. Frustrating how people complain about so many things that all come down to the simple brokenness of infinite mage mana.

Modifié par Matthew Young CT, 05 décembre 2009 - 01:24 .

[Khumak]

Osprey39 wrote...
If limitless potions bothers you so much, you could just not buy lyrium dust from the Circle quartermaster.  I think you will find lyrium potions much more precious if you do that.  I didn't notice that vendor had limitless dust on my first playthrough (as a mage) and I treated the pots I did have like they were gold.

I agree.  You should try a game without potions sometime, I find it much more fun because my resources are limited by mana.  Pretty much any fight is a joke with unlimited health/mana potions.  There's quite a few fights on nightmare that become hard if you have zero health potions and zero mana potions.  Rejuvenation and bard song become much more important.

Modifié par Khumak, 05 décembre 2009 - 01:49 .

[Matthew Young CT]

Ya rejuv spells/items are actually cool. No one realises though cos theyre too busy chugging pots



At the very least Bio should remove infinite elfroot & lyrium dust. You can scrounge up what you can find, but not infinite amounts!

[FedericoV]

deathwing200 wrote...

Suggestions:

1) Drastically increase stamina regeneration in combat. Abilities consume more stamina. That means there is a decision making process involved in which ability to use in different situation and thus more skill involved in melee combat. If anyone here played WoW rogue, the energy concept is exactly what I am desribing. Specials consume a lot of stamina, but it regenerates very quickly.

2) Introduce stamina potions - it's a simple concept and the materials are already in the game

3) Remove stamina completely - abilities' balance is kept in check by recharge timers.

I see your point and I agree that the Stamina/Mana/Potions problem needs some work.

For me the funnier solution would work like that:

- Finite number of lyrium/health potions (very rare on hardest difficulty setting).

- Pump spells like rejuvanate/mass rejuvenate/spell bloom and so on. More speels on the like for a support caster build.

- 5 members for party. So there is room for a support caster and you have not to cut the off-tank/archer/DW rogue to have a second caster in the party.

Btw, we have also have to admit that with all the stamina reg items you can find in the game, there is not great need of stamina potions. At least form my charachter, with a base willpower of 25 and +15 or so bonus from items in willpower and items that rgenerate stamina, I could allways use all my talents without great problem. Mage does not have a lot of such mana reg items so there is some sort of balance.

Modifié par FedericoV, 05 décembre 2009 - 02:03 .

[F-C]

basically i see this whole arguement as:



poster - i dont like the dao stamina system



moderator - we designed it like this, you can do this and this



poster - i dont like that, so im going to continue to rant about it





if you dont like it you can always just use the toolkit and mod the game to your needs. adjust it to be your personal world that works how you think it should. many of us out here have a solid grasp on how the system works and think its fine, we dont really need or want it to be changed.



many posters seem to think mana potions are the whole issue and i really dont understand what is stopping these users from just not buying and making the stacks of 99 mana potions and spamming them. do people really lack that small amount of self control? if you really do and think its broken to have to control yourself (wow) then mod them out of your game.



it seems to me that most of this is mmo whiplash where these people think playstyles must be forced upon them, and everyone else, by the developers, which in all honesty is rather sad.

[Woffen5]

I actually loved the magicsystem in the DnD games. You actually had to think/plan ahead more where it came to the spells. There was a lot more room for tactics than in DAO. I didnt like nwn 1 much though, mostly because of the party system. Still, would like to have seen the stamina costs in DAO to be slightly lower.



That being said, I love DAO and wouldnt want it to be different(except for the stamina costs, but that Im sure can be fixed by a mod)

[deathwing200]

F-C wrote...

basically i see this whole arguement as:

poster - i dont like the dao stamina system

moderator - we designed it like this, you can do this and this

poster - i dont like that, so im going to continue to rant about it

If only you stopped being a fanboy for second and judged objectively, you'd realize that forum moderators are just that. Forum moderators. From my NWN/NWN2 experience forum moderators tend to be ignorant of game mechanics and generally recommend stupid things like "put points into willpower" when you bring up why certain aspects of the game are broken.

if you dont like it you can always just use the toolkit and mod the game to your needs. adjust it to be your personal world that works how you think it should. many of us out here have a solid grasp on how the system works and think its fine, we dont really need or want it to be changed.

Why should I have to do that when Bio had more than enough time to create balanced combat? I don't get paid for it.

many posters seem to think mana potions are the whole issue and i really dont understand what is stopping these users from just not buying and making the stacks of 99 mana potions and spamming them. do people really lack that small amount of self control? if you really do and think its broken to have to control yourself (wow) then mod them out of your game.

It has already been mentioned that it's bad design to require players to impose rules upon themselves.

it seems to me that most of this is mmo whiplash where these people think playstyles must be forced upon them, and everyone else, by the developers, which in all honesty is rather sad.

Way to completely miss the point. People want combat system and stamina vs mana balance. Nobody brought MMOs into it until now.

[deathwing200]

FedericoV wrote...

- Finite number of lyrium/health potions (very rare on hardest difficulty setting).

Good idea. Although you'd need to compensate mages with more passive mana regen or interesting man regen skills.

- Pump spells like rejuvanate/mass rejuvenate/spell bloom and so on. More speels on the like for a support caster build.

Yes

- 5 members for party. So there is room for a support caster and you have not to cut the off-tank/archer/DW rogue to have a second caster in the party.

Not sure about this. 4 seems like a perfect number. I didn't really like BG2's 6 people parties, but to each his own, I suppose.

[Matthew Young CT]

They'll be balanced when/if bio smacks lyrium pots with the nerf stick. There is imbalance yes, but it is caused by just one issue that is fairly easily rectified.

ETA: rejuv/mass rejuv are actually pretty nifty if you take away the potion crutch (and all still nifty with it for stamina regen). spellbloom is indeed pretty lame though. considerably less regen AND you can't move out of the thing =(

Modifié par Matthew Young CT, 05 décembre 2009 - 03:13 .

[imukka]

stamina pots should be in a game

[Matthew Young CT]

No that's the entirely wrong way round. Potions in general SUCK, and should be heavily nerfed. Not add MORE potions!

[F-C]

deathwing200 wrote...

If only you stopped being a fanboy for second and judged objectively, you'd realize that forum moderators are just that. Forum moderators. From my NWN/NWN2 experience forum moderators tend to be ignorant of game mechanics and generally recommend stupid things like "put points into willpower" when you bring up why certain aspects of the game are broken.

i dont think its broken at all, putting points in willpower is not stupid, and your insults of me and the moderators are childish.

you do seem to lack the ability to adapt to a new game though.

Why should I have to do that when Bio had more than enough time to create balanced combat? I don't get paid for it.

they balanced it how they wanted it to be. you have 2 choices in the matter, learn to adapt or change it to how you want it to be.

noone paid me to put a basketball goal in my driveway, i did it because i thought it would be a good way to enjoy my time. in the same regard, if you think playing DAO a certain way would be a good way to enjoy your time you can put a little effort into getting it where you want it.

its not the developers responsability to pander to your every need. they arnt your mommy.

It has already been mentioned that it's bad design to require players to impose rules upon themselves.

its bad design to do something so you will enjoy yourself more.
yes, apparently life is designed poorly too.

Way to completely miss the point. People want combat system and stamina vs mana balance. Nobody brought MMOs into it until now.

i understand your point quite well. you lack the ability to adapt to a new game and think the developers should pander to your every personal need and lack the ability to do anything for yourself.

go you.

Modifié par F-C, 05 décembre 2009 - 03:21 .

[Loc'n'lol]

Willpower should significantly increase stamina/mana regeneration. Constitution should significantly increase health regeneration. In combat too, that is.

There, actual reasons to invest in those attributes, and less reliance on potions.

[Matthew Young CT]

theres enough regen in the game. people just dont notice it cos they chug potions instead.

[RampantBeaver]

I agree almost completely with everything you've said. The D&D ruleset is a terrbile mechanic to rely on. I've said this from the begining. It is so outdated and for an modern audience that craves realism it just doesn't fit in.