167 réponses à ce sujet

[Magern]

Easy solution- BIGGER MUSHROOMS.

[Marvin TPA]

I have made choices in my current play through that have left my party with a dps mage, no dedicated healer, and no infinite supply of elf roots.

Fortunately for me I tend to pump willpower and even unfashionable constitution. This means that I don't need to trek to the tower to pick up my lyrium fix, as the random encounters chew up health potions. The dps mage rarely needs to pop mana pots and the melee gang don't pick up to many injuries while having enough stamina to use abilities.



This is with a sword and shield main on hard, no min/maxing, and its fun. Not fiddling around with all those pots is quite liberating. Spreading the attribs realy can do the job.

[dissonance-zaon]

I agree that the underlining problem to this whole issue in general seems to be the potions. Self-imposed limitations are your friend. And before you begin barking, a lot of these problems also stem from the *read carefully* self-imposed limitation of a higher difficulty (i.e. Nightmare). Go figure.

My rule is that I can only use the potions I find and create only what I've collected. The only related item that I purchase are flasks since I can't pick those from plants. Which makes me think: What the heck do I do with all these flasks? You know what would be a good balance to this problem? The good ol' Zelda jar mechanic. Carrying x amount of flasks that can only be refilled in certain areas of the game (like Camp!).

Modifié par dissonance-zaon, 05 décembre 2009 - 03:59 .

[Osprey39]

deathwing200 wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

- Finite number of lyrium/health potions (very rare on hardest difficulty setting).

Good idea. Although you'd need to compensate mages with more passive mana regen or interesting man regen skills.

FFS man,  you sound just like one of those window lickers on the WoW forums talking about compensation for nerfs.  On the one hand you say infinite lyrium potions for mages makes them too strong but then when someone suggests limiting them, you say mages would have to be compensated for it.

As someone who has played through this game once as a mage (on hard mode no less) not realizing you could buy unlimited elfroot and lyrium dust, I can say with full confidence that you do not need limitless potions and poultices to finish the game.  I can also say that even without unlimited mana, mages are still damn powerful.  Furthermore, I had to use my head a whole lot more playing that way than I've had to on my 2nd playthrough where I availed myself of the infinite herbalism components.

Did you ever think maybe the reason they did things the way they did is so people that don't want unlimited potions don't have to go to the two vendors that sell the components and buy them but yet they are there for those that do want to buy them?  I find it pretty ironic that you accuse everyone that disagrees with you of playing on easy mode while you apparently can't muster enough self-control to stop creating your own easy mode by purchasing these things.

[Setz69]

deathwing200 wrote...

I'll repeat myself: we shouldn't gimp ourselves with gear or stat distribution to compensate for bad design.

This is where you lose me. How are you gimping yourself with willpower and stam gear when you obviously NEED it for skills? If your going to skill spam, your going to need stamina. To get that your going to need stam gear and willpower.

IRL how do you gain stamina? Working out. How is it you get the motivation to work out? Willpower. Investing in willpower seems like a great way to increase stamina. Oh wait. I see. By gimping, you mean you can't pump your str/dex/cunning to ungodly amounts and do maximum pwnage dmg...

If you even LOOK at half the skills, its not the damage they do, but the ability they perform that makes them worthwhile. Knockdowns/stuns/guaranteed crits. Each doing normal damage (aside from the crits) and adding an effect to them. Save your abilities for when you need to knockdown a mage casting, or when you need to stun a boss or crit smash a petrified/frozen enemy.

You complaing about stamina saying you shouldn't have to do this, and you should do that, and this is how it is now adays (skill spamming). Obviously your wrong, because bioware hasn't done it this way, isn't going to do it that way, and you DO have to do that. Thats how their stamina system works, and in a tactical sense I love it.
You WILL need to think out your battes, and you will have to use mage spells like mass rejuvenate. And what is that? You shouldn't have to depend on spells? What are you using to heal your party, poultices? Still depending on an item. I think my character should regen health faster than he loses it so I don't have to depend on items or gear or spells.

And honestly people, Lyrium pots, if you think theres to much, don't use them. Your not here to impress anyone with "I passed the game on nightmare with my mage. And we all know none of you can cuz theres not enough lyrium pots". Whats the big deal if some people can just down lyrium pots their whole play through? Let them. If you don't want it that easy, make up your own rules. I.e: Only use one a battle. Or only use them on bosses.

You want a system where you can just spam skills and out big numbers at the same time. My bad, I thought we were playing a 'tactical' rpg. My mistake. I'll leave you to your ranting as you apparently don't want to listen to reason, and anyone disagreeing with you is either a fanboi or a troll.

Modifié par Setz69, 05 décembre 2009 - 04:36 .

[Midgetface]

I'm working on a mod, coming out soon, that:



- Gives Warriors stamina from constitution. You still have to spend attribute points to get stamina, but you also get health, physical resistance and fatigue reduction from doing so. You become more durable. So you can put points in STR for burst, CON for endurance.



- Gives Rogues stamina based on their STR, DEX and CUN. Very little though, imagine 2 points of STA per point above 10. You would have to put 5 points into DEX to get the same as 2 points in WIL. The idea is making Rogues more manouverable in the core.



When it's ready, you'll see it up.

[Hardin4188]

I see no reason why mana potions should be removed. If you don't want an unlimited amount then don't buy dust at the circle. This isn't a multiplayer game, me buying potions wont hurt you.

Modifié par Hardin4188, 05 décembre 2009 - 04:44 .

[Matthew Young CT]

They should be nerfed massively because they are broken. If you want a broken mechanic, just turn on godmode.

[MartinJHolm]

Make longer cooldowns and shared cooldowns on potions.



And everyone has to put points into willpower (or just keep complaining because they refuse for some stupid reason).

[RVallant]

There's no problem with stamina. I didn't even go past 20 willpower and I had tons of stamina as a warrior. The end of the warrior line that gives you stamina per kill makes you an ability-spam machine. Put simply, end game there is no problem.



The problem I had with STA was in early levels which, makes sense, you're not that trained to chain skill after skill yet.



As for stat dependency, on normal 30 dex gives you a 95% hit rate going by my warrior's stats. 50 strength was more than enough damage. I barely put points into con or cunning but was still able to max out coercion early enough to abuse it and still had enough hp to solo normal foes (three or four at a pop) without healing (because with that high dex and armour you shouldn't even be getting hit nor for that much anyway.)



Sounds to me like some people want to be able to solo a high dragon by skill-spamming. Also sounds to me like a lot of the playerbase are typical new generation gamers:



"i can't do it!" *switches to easy* "I still can't do it!" /moan at game designers. (You can remove the easy mode if you want, same point.) That is coming from someone who swings about on normal mode though, if I went to nightmare and found my tactics didn't work I'm not going to whine it's flawed game design ¬_¬ I'll adapt to it. Which, is my point. If you want more stamina, boost willpower and stop spamming abilities like a numpty.



Simply, learn the system and use it. If you suck it's because you suck, stop blaming the game sheesh.

[Sylixe]

deathwing200 wrote...

Osprey39 wrote...

Wrong again or maybe you just have incredibly slow reaction time.  My rogue has 11 constitution.  I don't get 2 shot...ever.  I can quite easily stealth or Feign Death before I die.  

Are you on easy difficulty? You NEED HPs as melee. There are many situations when you can't rely on potions, healers or stealth to save you. (Example: your healer is paralyzed, your rogue is grabbed/overwhelmed/rammed etc)

Post your character screenshot too, I am eager to see your 11 con rogue with zero injuries.

That would be nearly impossible because early on my DW rogue died a lot because she had no escape mechanics.  Once i got a few levels though and got the mechanics and my tank had some good threat i almost never died. 

However against Rev's it's a terrible prospect for ANY melee except the tank to be close to them due to their aura dmg.  In that case i put a solid bow on her and shot away at rng.  I also did the same on both dragons due to AoE's and keeping the rogue correctly positioned. 

[Hardin4188]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

They should be nerfed massively because they are broken. If you want a broken mechanic, just turn on godmode.

See the thing is it isn't broken. It's fine as it is.

[F-C]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

They should be nerfed massively because they are broken. If you want a broken mechanic, just turn on godmode.

people like this make me wish i could reach through the internet and just punch them in the face.

how other people play the game has zero effect on you. none, zilch, nada, doesnt exist.

dont like mana potions in your game? dont use them. problem solved.

i think im going to stop coming to these forums, i dont want to get infected with the amount of stupid that swells up on these forums on a daily basis.

[DaeFaron]

F-C wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

They should be nerfed massively because they are broken. If you want a broken mechanic, just turn on godmode.

people like this make me wish i could reach through the internet and just punch them in the face.

how other people play the game has zero effect on you. none, zilch, nada, doesnt exist.

dont like mana potions in your game? dont use them. problem solved.

i think im going to stop coming to these forums, i dont want to get infected with the amount of stupid that swells up on these forums on a daily basis.

Exactly, that is what I said about injury kits when people ****ed about those.

The game is just as fun for me as a warrior as it is for bobby-joe over there playing mage and James T. Kirk over there playing rogue.

[FedericoV]

F-C wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

They should be nerfed massively because they are broken. If you want a broken mechanic, just turn on godmode.

people like this make me wish i could reach through the internet and just punch them in the face.

how other people play the game has zero effect on you. none, zilch, nada, doesnt exist.

dont like mana potions in your game? dont use them. problem solved.

i think im going to stop coming to these forums, i dont want to get infected with the amount of stupid that swells up on these forums on a daily basis.

Sorry F-C, I can understand the frustration against the trolls that feast in those forums on daily basis. And I agree that if you don't like something in the game there is not a lot of sense in complaining since you simply can stop to use the feature that you do not like (wich, for example, I did concerning lyrium potions). 

But the stamina/mana/potion system is far from perfect. And I do not see any reason to stop discussing about things that could improve the game in future iterations! If the debate is reasonable and constructive, there is no need to label all the criticism as "stupidity"...

I read a dev say that they cannot use an action queue (that could have improved the gameplay A LOT... and I mean A LOT) because of the mana/stamina system. Gaider himself have said that they were studying some sort of lyrium addiction mechanic (wich could have been cool) but they have to stop because mages needed mana potions.

DA:O is the first chapter of a new game system. Game system can improve in time thanks to constructive criticism of the fan base and I have seen a lot of good proposal here.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure that the modding community will find creative way to answer those demand and that the best of those changes will affect game design in the sequels of DA (if the game sold well and we'll see a sequel).

[Seifz]

My biggest problem with the stat system in DA:O is that Constitution is all but worthless unless you're playing on Nightmare. Except for Shale, I don't think that I ever spent a point in Constitution for any of my characters.



One possible solution is to give a slight bonus to either stamina or stamina regeneration from points in Constitution. Leave Willpower as the primary stamina booster so that it doesn't lose value, though.

[Bibdy]

Not sure why people enjoy the 'blow your load early' system. Its not very tactical. Same with BG2. Fights typically involved just unleashing absolutely everything super-powerful as quick as possible (and before your opponent did it to you), rather than anticipating a long battle and behaving accordingly - saving your protective spells for when they're going to hit you with something big, saving your super-nukes for when you know their protective spells are gone.



Much more tactical than 'burst through door, launch fireballs into everything'.

[Setz69]

F-C wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

They should be nerfed massively because they are broken. If you want a broken mechanic, just turn on godmode.

people like this make me wish i could reach through the internet and just punch them in the face.

how other people play the game has zero effect on you. none, zilch, nada, doesnt exist.

dont like mana potions in your game? dont use them. problem solved.

i think im going to stop coming to these forums, i dont want to get infected with the amount of stupid that swells up on these forums on a daily basis.

+10.

This is the point right here. They aren't BROKEN. They are working as inteded. They make the game playable whether you are new to rpgs, casual, veteran, or hardcore. You aren't competing against anyone. It doesnt matter if Joe schmoe, who works 12 hours a day and plays FPS's but picked up Dragon age origins for something new, can spam potions and still beat the game. He isn't impossing on your epeen by you being able to beat nightmare without needing potions. He's playing the game he wants to play, the way he likes to.

Don't like potions, don't use them.

And @FedericoV, I agree. If something is broken, or can be improved, I'd like to see it improved. But not at the cost of someone elses personal gaming fun. Lowering the amount of potions available exponentially according to the difficulty level would be a good fix imo, and from what I've seen on both my warrior and rogue, there is plenty of ways to get your stamina up to where you need it. So Im failing to see WHERE this is broken. If someone could actually point it out without using the words "fanboi, troll, or unbalanced" than I would gladly listen.

[Pennoyer]

Usually, when there is an option to get an unlimited amount of x resource, it is done through a console command or some other "cheat." I do not find it unreasonable that people would be upset that the unlimited lyrium was the default.

[Setz69]

Pennoyer wrote...

Usually, when there is an option to get an unlimited amount of x resource, it is done through a console command or some other "cheat." I do not find it unreasonable that people would be upset that the unlimited lyrium was the default.

Why would people be upset? Whats it to them if there's unlimited Lyrium?

[Seifz]

Setz69 wrote...

Pennoyer wrote...

Usually, when there is an option to get an unlimited amount of x resource, it is done through a console command or some other "cheat." I do not find it unreasonable that people would be upset that the unlimited lyrium was the default.

Why would people be upset? Whats it to them if there's unlimited Lyrium?

It's terribly inconsistant with the lore of the setting, which says that lyrium is rare and its use on the surface is strictly controlled by the Templars and the Circle of Magi?

[thestreaker]

How about Bioware fix the warrior and assassin end talents that give a bonus to stamina after each kill? Right now they give ridiculously low (or none) stamina and are 4th tier talents! I'm fine with having to conserve stamina, but at least give melee something to keep them going throughout the fight. With sustained abilities and terrible stamina boosting talents/spells, all it does is make the game more boring.

[FedericoV]

Setz69 wrote...

And @FedericoV, I agree. If something is broken, or can be improved, I'd like to see it improved. But not at the cost of someone elses personal gaming fun. Lowering the amount of potions available exponentially according to the difficulty level would be a good fix imo, and from what I've seen on both my warrior and rogue, there is plenty of ways to get your stamina up to where you need it. So Im failing to see WHERE this is broken. If someone could actually point it out without using the words "fanboi, troll, or unbalanced" than I would gladly listen.

I do agree that it's not broken. And I do agree that players who just want to experience the story (or kill everything in their path at first try) should be able to take it easy as much as they like. So I agree that those changes should only affect the gameplay of harder difficulties settings.

Having said that, I'm only saying that in a tactical game like DA:O, having an infinite availability of an important resource like lyrium and thus of mana is not a great feature... If we're talking about tactics, if we are talking about game design, imho, introducing a stat that limits the number of spell that a mage could cast during combat (mana) and then introducing an infinite stock of potions that grants you the chance to avoid such limits without repercussion and any time you want is a non sense.

Not to talk about the fact that an infinite stock of lyrium makes spells like regeneration, mass regeneration, spell bloom and Winne backgorund talent mostly useless.

If you want to make it simple (and it's allways better to make it simple) just remove mana and stamina at all and leave only fatigue as a measure against multi-tasking . Lyrium is part of the lore but could be used for other task (like spell power).

Or scale the avaibility of lyrium potions for harder difficulty setting.

Modifié par FedericoV, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:45 .

[Pennoyer]

Setz69 wrote...

Pennoyer wrote...

Usually, when there is an option to get an unlimited amount of x resource, it is done through a console command or some other "cheat." I do not find it unreasonable that people would be upset that the unlimited lyrium was the default.

Why would people be upset? Whats it to them if there's unlimited Lyrium?

I can see a problem in that the developers decided that using unlimited mana pots in fights is a legit tactic.  (Same can be said with the taunt/force field "tactic").  Unlimited mana potions as a default is an easy way around the limitations of mana.  Why have mana at all?  I can understand how some people enjoy the option.  I just think things like this are better left to a console command.  If it looks like a cheat and smells like a cheat, by golly it is a cheat.

[Mavkiel]

Imo the current potion system is a wee bit broken. Really, all potions ought to share the same timer. It is a tad odd to take a lesser health potion and be able to take a greater right after.



As for stamina, I guess I am on minority side in thinking its flat out unnecessary. Melee combat moves tend to be fairly powerful and melee characters tend to have very good survival skills. Rogues with their 1/5th avoidance and warriors with plate armor.



Heck, if the people in question are that concerned about stamina, simply drag around a mage that can cast rejuv..