167 réponses à ce sujet

[Setz69]

Pennoyer wrote...

Setz69 wrote...

Pennoyer wrote...

Usually, when there is an option to get an unlimited amount of x resource, it is done through a console command or some other "cheat." I do not find it unreasonable that people would be upset that the unlimited lyrium was the default.

Why would people be upset? Whats it to them if there's unlimited Lyrium?

I can see a problem in that the developers decided that using unlimited mana pots in fights is a legit tactic.  (Same can be said with the taunt/force field "tactic").  Unlimited mana potions as a default is an easy way around the limitations of mana.  Why have mana at all?  I can understand how some people enjoy the option.  I just think things like this are better left to a console command.  If it looks like a cheat and smells like a cheat, by golly it is a cheat.

A cheat is a way to get around developer implemented things to skew the game in your favor.

Again your missing the point of, why does it matter? I can understand you'd be upset if the npc enemy mages were chugging back mana pots like crazy, but what does it matter if others can? If you think its stupid to have unlimited potions, er, don't? Don't go buy crazy amounts of lyrium dust? Its not like you accidentally can be walking along, look in a crate, and find an unlimited amount of potions. It takes an active stance and the want, to get unlimited potions.

If you can understand how some people enjoy the option, than why can't you understand that it doesn't lessen your gaming experience by the doing it and you just choosing not to? I myself never even knew you could mass buy unlimited amounts of lyrium dust until this thread, and i've wrapped the game afew times just fine. Some people may not be able to play like I do though. Some people may play more hardcore than I do and not use any potions at all. Its their choice.

[Pennoyer]

Setz, I agree with you for the most part. I never use many potions. I have not even crafted many to be honest. I just think some players have a legit gripe. I have more of a problem with some of the AI exploits that seem pretty easy to fix. Things like pulling one enemy at a time from a big group and the force field/taunt. Still, I think it would be cool if they decided X is around the number of mana pots that one should need to beat the game. If they can't do it, they must lower difficulty. I am not a big fan of self-imposed restrictions such as refusing to use potions, etc.

[Must have name]

If it were up to me:



-Stamina regens faster based on Constitution. As in, fast enough for you to actually use your abilities.

-Potions as a hole have a detrimental effect. Everytime a mage takes a lyrium pot, they get a debuff because of the excess lyrium. This debuff could do anything, such as make them take more damage, have potions take progressivly less of an effect, or cause them to "fail" spells more often having enemies resist it.



The only annoyance the stamina system really has is that its impossible to build a warrior or rogue around using skills constantly. The best way to get something from a DW-Rogue is to just stick with Momentum and Passive abilties. If I wanted to focus on using skills such as Flurry consistantly, its simply impossible, I just don't have enough stamina. The only time I do, is late game where i've amassed enough +stam regen equipment.



Right now, i'm going through the game solo with a mage on nightmare with the one main other enforced rule being no Arcane Warrior. I can cruise past most fights unless I get CC-d or screw up, simply because as soon as I got out of Lothering, I can pop to the Circle of Magi, grab 50 lesser mana potions for a couple sovreigns, and I can win any fight just by chugging the things.

[WillyPete2171]

..................Don't get me wrong. I think stamina is "fun" concept. However the implementation of it at the moment is a bit flawed. It needs to be rehauled to always allow player to do something during combat, not just autoswing.

Suggestions:

1) Drastically increase stamina regeneration in combat. Abilities consume more stamina. That means there is a decision making process involved in which ability to use in different situation and thus more skill involved in melee combat. If anyone here played WoW rogue, the energy concept is exactly what I am desribing. Specials consume a lot of stamina, but it regenerates very quickly.

2) Introduce stamina potions - it's a simple concept and the materials are already in the game

3) Remove stamina completely - abilities' balance is kept in check by recharge timers.

[/quote]

The way I look at stanima is that you only have so much energy during a fight and you must be strategic with what abilities you use.  once the fight is over, then it regenerates.  it adds another layer of strategy to the game.  I beileve there are some restoration type spells that help speed up stanima gain.

now, if you want poitions, there is a very well done mod thats hosted on this site that has the same type of system health potions have - three different strenghts and they can be made

[Hardin4188]

Seifz wrote...

Setz69 wrote...

Pennoyer wrote...

Usually, when there is an option to get an unlimited amount of x resource, it is done through a console command or some other "cheat." I do not find it unreasonable that people would be upset that the unlimited lyrium was the default.

Why would people be upset? Whats it to them if there's unlimited Lyrium?

It's terribly inconsistant with the lore of the setting, which says that lyrium is rare and its use on the surface is strictly controlled by the Templars and the Circle of Magi?

Which is why you can only get it in large quantities at the circle. And although it isn't expensive it's not like they hand it out to you. You still have to pay for it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

deathwing200 wrote...

Right now only mages are fun to play. That is a problem.

Wrong.

Right now only mages are easy to play.  If you want a more involved class that requires planning and forethought, play something else (the extreme other end of teh scale being a 2H warrior).

Each class has different characteristics and rewards a different playstyle.  I count that as a hugely positive feature, because that means that no matter what playstyle you prefer there is a class that satifies you.

If you want easy cheese that requires no intelligent input from you, play an Arcane Warrior/blood Mage.  If you want some halfway between the two extremes, play a Bard/Assassin.  There are so many choices - I can't believe the complaints here are that choice is bad and that all classes should play fundamentally the same.

I couldn't disagree more.

[0mar]

Willpower only increases the stamina pool by 5 per point. That makes it useless if you want to build a stamina pool up. The typical skill takes 30-45 stamina to activate, so you need to drop 3-4 levels in willpower to gain an extra ability use during battle. Also, I might add, using that ability will drop your overall DPS, so it's not like you even gained anything. Willpower stat increases are one of the worst ways to distribute your attribute points. Basically, all you should be doing is upping Dex to 36 (if you care about 4th tier talents for DW/S+S) and dumping the rest into strength. Anything else is just making a suboptimal character.

[deathwing200]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Wrong.

Right now only mages are easy to play.  If you want a more involved class that requires planning and forethought, play something else (the extreme other end of teh scale being a 2H warrior).

What planning? What forethought? Using optimal abilities in the correct situation applies to both mages and warriors as far the "skill" goes. The difference is that mages draw from a limitless resource, warriors do not. That should be corrected.

Each class has different characteristics and rewards a different playstyle.  I count that as a hugely positive feature, because that means that no matter what playstyle you prefer there is a class that satifies you.

Are we even talking about the same game? There are 3 classes with 2 different resource system. I am suggesting is slightly overhauling the weaker system in order to make the game more balanced and enjoyable.

If you want easy cheese that requires no intelligent input from you, play an Arcane Warrior/blood Mage.

I wish people would stop being parrots and spam this line in every forum. AW is not even optimal min/max build unless you're soloing.

If you want some halfway between the two extremes, play a Bard/Assassin.  There are so many choices - I can't believe the complaints here are that choice is bad and that all classes should play fundamentally the same.

Correcting an imbalance isn't making "all classes play the same", unless you're willing to homogenize unique abilites, which I am not proposing.

[deathwing200]

Osprey39 wrote...
FFS man,  you sound just like one of those window lickers on the WoW forums talking about compensation for nerfs.  On the one hand you say infinite lyrium potions for mages makes them too strong but then when someone suggests limiting them, you say mages would have to be compensated for it.

If only you weren't a typical forum mouthbreather, you'd realize that I am all for potions nerfing. However - it is obvious Bioware balanced the game with a lot of potions in mind. Look at the mage mana pools. Look at activation costs. Look at how much willpower contributes to mana pool. Realize that willpower is underbudgeted (AKA worthless). Potion mechanics NEED to be done away with - however you can't just propose such a shattering nerf to a class mechanic before you fix some of the issue such as "why do mages need to drink 10 pots a fight" and "why is willpower stat total trash".

And for your information - Blizzard often compensates for nerfs. Not always. Not on same patch. But they do.

As someone who has played through this game once as a mage (on hard mode no less) not realizing you could buy unlimited elfroot and lyrium dust, I can say with full confidence that you do not need limitless potions and poultices to finish the game.  I can also say that even without unlimited mana, mages are still damn powerful.  Furthermore, I had to use my head a whole lot more playing that way than I've had to on my 2nd playthrough where I availed myself of the infinite herbalism components.

Currently without access to potions, mages cannot play the role of a nuker. All their mana has to go towards CC. To play without mana pots you probably pumped up willpower, making damage spells even more useless. We all play classes for different reasons, if you enjoy mages being support, then feel free. I don't.

Did you ever think maybe the reason they did things the way they did is so people that don't want unlimited potions don't have to go to the two vendors that sell the components and buy them but yet they are there for those that do want to buy them?  I find it pretty ironic that you accuse everyone that disagrees with you of playing on easy mode while you apparently can't muster enough self-control to stop creating your own easy mode by purchasing these things.

Honestly, another person with a retarded suggestion like "You don't have to buy them", goes on ignore. Sick and tired of this BS.

Modifié par deathwing200, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[Mordaedil]

Someone who thinks D&D casters are gimped has no real valuable opinion or anything to offer into a discussion regarding balance.



Take your whining back elsewhere, seriously, deathwing200.



You can claim at full lungs that there's nothing really worth playing besides casters, but there's the most important part of DAO which cannot be experienced if you only play casters: The story. Your roleplay choices are also severely limited if you only ever play a caster and it's not why people play these games. It really doesn't matter if a class is unbalanced, because the game is still as much fun with a class that can always win as with a class that has challenges.



Why should the class system be balanced when, in the game as it is, it's working just fine?

[deathwing200]

Mordaedil wrote...

Someone who thinks D&D casters are gimped has no real valuable opinion or anything to offer into a discussion regarding balance.

Compared to melee in CRPG's they are. Like I already mentioned NWN series have 10 times more combat and the number of spells per day hasn't changed from PnP, which is balanced for 4x encounters per day. Not sure why I am still arguing this - do you actually disagree that melee was overwhelmingly superior in combat in NWN series?

Take your whining back elsewhere, seriously, deathwing200.

So because I love this game and give suggestions on how to improve it, I am whining? Take your trolling elsewhere.

You can claim at full lungs that there's nothing really worth playing besides casters, but there's the most important part of DAO which cannot be experienced if you only play casters: The story. Your roleplay choices are also severely limited if you only ever play a caster and it's not why people play these games.

You're one of the "RP tards" I was talking about earlier. The game should be enjoyable for all classes because the combat is balanced, fun and enjoyable. That is a true success behind replayability of a game. Do you think for a moment the story kept people replaying BG2 10 times? No, it was because the game was FUN, with a ton of builds, classes and amazing combat system.

It really doesn't matter if a class is unbalanced, because the game is still as much fun with a class that can always win as with a class that has challenges.

Not for many people

Why should the class system be balanced when, in the game as it is, it's working just fine?

Except it's not.

Modifié par deathwing200, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:42 .

[Matthew Young CT]

deathwing200 wrote...
Compared to melee in CRPG's they are. Like I already mentioned NWN series have 10 times more combat and the number of spells per day hasn't changed from PnP, which is balanced for 4x encounters per day. Not sure why I am still arguing this - do you actually disagree that melee was overwhelmingly superior in combat in NWN series?

Uh sorceror was by miles and miles the strongest class in NWN.

[Matthew Young CT]

deathwing200 wrote...
Realize that willpower is underbudgeted (AKA worthless). Potion mechanics NEED to be done away with - however you can't just propose such a shattering nerf to a class mechanic before you fix some of the issue such as "why do mages need to drink 10 pots a fight" and "why is willpower stat total trash".

If your mages need to drink 10 pots a fight you need to have less worthless other party members.

[WillieStyle]

0mar wrote...

Willpower only increases the stamina pool by 5 per point. That makes it useless if you want to build a stamina pool up. The typical skill takes 30-45 stamina to activate, so you need to drop 3-4 levels in willpower to gain an extra ability use during battle. Also, I might add, using that ability will drop your overall DPS, so it's not like you even gained anything. Willpower stat increases are one of the worst ways to distribute your attribute points. Basically, all you should be doing is upping Dex to 36 (if you care about 4th tier talents for DW/S+S) and dumping the rest into strength. Anything else is just making a suboptimal character.

^This!

The problem is stam [b]regen[\\b].  Willpower has a very tiny effect on ones stam pool and a trivial effect on ones stam regen.  Spending 6 willpower so I can do 1 extra dual-weapon sweep per fight is stupid.  I am much better off either:
-Spending more points in dex/str/cun so that my other abilities hit harder so I don't need that extra dual-weapon sweep
or
-Popping mana pots on my mage and then converting mana to stam via rejuv. and mass rejuv.

Having Bioware developers/mods suggest pumping willpower is especially distressing.  If they just said either:
1) "We wanted to balance the system but we ran out of time." 
Then I'd know they understand the system isn't balanced.
2) "We know the system isn't balanced but we don't care because we like mages being overpowered."
Then at least I'd know they understand the system isn't balacned.

Instead, it sounds as if they built the system thinking it was balanced which suggests they don't really understand how their own game works.  That's the scariest part of all this.

P.S.
Even if you fixed stamina v. mana, the fact is that melee abilities are FAR worse than magical ones and yet cost roughly the same (they cost far more if you consider mana pots). 
Compare the following abilities:
-Holy smite v. mana clash.
-Cripple v. Misdirection Hex
-Dirty fighting v. paralyze.
I've seen the lead developer state that they didn't balance the classes with regards to dps. Well it's far from of obvious that they even tried to balance the classes at all.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 06 décembre 2009 - 01:17 .

[Matthew Young CT]

WillieStyle wrote...
The problem is stam [b]regen[\\\\b].

no its comparing stamina to a renamed stamina WITH POTIONS. they are otherwise identical you know. the only difference is potion availability....

Willpower has a very tiny effect on ones stam pool and a trivial effect on ones stam regen.  Spending 6 willpower so I can do 1 extra dual-weapon sweep per fight is stupid.  I am much better off either:
-Spending more points in dex/str/cun so that my other abilities hit harder so I don't need that extra dual-weapon sweep
or
-Popping mana pots on my mage and then converting mana to stam via rejuv. and mass rejuv.

yes willpower isnt very good. this is different to the stamina issue, stamina is fine.

Having Bioware developers/mods suggest pumping willpower is especially distressing.  If they just said either:
1) "We wanted to balance the system but we ran out of time." 
Then I'd know they understand the system isn't balanced.
2) "We know the system isn't balanced but we don't care because we like mages being overpowered."
Then at least I'd know they understand the system isn't balacned.

where have devs said pump willpower? and mods had nothing to do with da's development, theyre no different to a normal player in such matters

Even if you fixed stamina v. mana, the fact is that melee abilities are FAR worse than magical ones and yet cost roughly the same (they cost far more if you consider mana pots). 
Compare the following abilities:
-Holy smite v. mana clash.
-Cripple v. Misdirection Hex
-Dirty fighting v. paralyze.

the costs are totally different actually.
comparing abilities like that directly is asinine anyway. classes have to be compared as a whole.

I've seen the lead developer state that they didn't balance the classes with regards to dps. Well it's far from of obvious that they even tried to balance the classes at all.

balancing classes wrt to dps would have been stupid, so that's no surprise.
they are balanced fairly well if you take out the horrible brokenness of potions.

[Koralis]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

theres enough regen in the game. people just dont notice it cos they chug potions instead.

I rarely drink mana potions, but I have death syphon.  



Warriors have a tier 4 talent that regens stamina,
Assassins have something similar if they backstab-kill
Bards have a mana/stamina regen song for the group.  (I use this instead of attack/damage)


If the Warrior/Assassin abilities worked any time a foe fell instead of when THEY killed the foe (in a party setting it's hard to say who will be killing something..) then it'd be much more useful though.  Maybe half stamina for a party kill and normal for the killing blow.

Modifié par Koralis, 06 décembre 2009 - 01:47 .

[Matthew Young CT]

ya theres lots of stuff. even just having wynne spam rejuv/mass rejuv and wearing a couple +regen items gives you tons of stamina. throw in song of valor/feast of the fallen etc and you'll have more than you know what to do with

[FedericoV]

@deathwing200: There are many players who think that the game is perfect as it is and do not need any change. You should respect them becuase there are valid reasons in their arguments too. We do not need yaf (yet another flame) about criticism vs. fanoboysm. It does not help your position at all (and you know that I agree about the fact that mana/stamina and potions need some rework).



Having said that, the point is simple.



Mana is there to limit the number of spells that a mage can cast during combat. Spell cost and mana consuption work very well for most mob battles since those battles are very quick. The problem arise in longer battles against bosses or larger mobs. In those situations, the mana mechanic would gimp mage to the point of being not very enjoyable to play. I mean something like "cast some spell and then take a look".



Warrior and rogues do not suffer the same limitation since thay can allways auto-attack effectively thanks to better gear and so on. That's why there are no stamina potions. So, at the end, there is a balance (even if I think that balance is not a problem in single player game) and it's not broken at all.



Lyrium potions are needed only in longer fights since it seems (at least, it seems to me but I could be wrong) that given the current system it's difficult to balance spell cost in both quick and long fights and that lyrium potions were the easier tool to cover the differences between those situations.



The problem is that while I understand that lyrium potions are an easy solution to the problem, having an infinite availability of those potions turn mana management in something trivial. Thanks to infinite lyrium pots, you could avoid mana management at all. Thanks to infinite lyrium pots all the nice spells that were studied to help mana management (not to mention Wynne background talent) became mostly useless.



If DA:O is a tactical game, the management of resources should be a concern at least for harder difficulties.



So, after all I've said what would be the best soution for me? For DA:O I think that the Nightmare Mod have allready find some interesting solution that solve most of the problems. So, for the persons who want a challenge, just download the mod and use it.



But for a potential sequel, there are simpler solutions imho. Cut mana and stamina at all. Leave only fatigue. Every action you make add a certain amount of points to fatigue. When you surpass a certain level of fatigue you can allways use your talents but the effectiveness of those talent (and/or the time needed to use those talents) is reduced by a certain amount. The limit of sustainable fatigue is estabilished by willpower (or by willpower for mages and constitution for warriors and rogues).



Just my two cents .

[deathwing200]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Uh sorceror was by miles and miles the strongest class in NWN.

Don't feel like derailing the thread, but not even close. If you think so, you didn't know how to build warriors or you didn't take advantage of unlimited potions and immunity items the game practically threw in your face. By the end of HoTU, my weaponmaster did several times more damage per round than a mage and every critical (55% chance to crit) had a high chance to cause instant death. He also cleaved everyone around him as well as being immune to most of the game's negative effects. Keep in mind I am not talking about PvP - because obviously IGMS+Timestop+Bigby hands was game over for ANY class. Truth is, mage's spells were sadly lacking after level 20. While warriors continued to scale with weapons  and in weaponmaster's case AB as well.

[Matthew Young CT]

Well, mages were invincible, so I'd count that as more powerful Maybe some of my memories are influenced by the PRC mod though, with wish and whatnot making them able to do whatever they pleased. Regardless that game was incredibly easy as anyone.

[Osprey39]

thestreaker wrote...

How about Bioware fix the warrior and assassin end talents that give a bonus to stamina after each kill? Right now they give ridiculously low (or none) stamina and are 4th tier talents! I'm fine with having to conserve stamina, but at least give melee something to keep them going throughout the fight. With sustained abilities and terrible stamina boosting talents/spells, all it does is make the game more boring.

I don't know about you but if my rogue assassin kills like 2 guys and he's almost back to full stam from 0.  Now full stam to me is about 75% of his max because I keep Song of Valor (or whatever the regen song is called) running all the time.

[deathwing200]

[quote]FedericoV wrote...

@deathwing200: There are many players who think that the game is perfect as it is and do not need any change. You should respect them becuase there are valid reasons in their arguments too. We do not need yaf (yet another flame) about criticism vs. fanoboysm. It does not help your position at all (and you know that I agree about the fact that mana/stamina and potions need some rework). [/quote]

Yes, I realize some people will argue that "everything is fine" until foam flows from their mouth, but those people generally have nothing useful to add other than "Well I think that X mechanic is fine, because I said so". So far I didn't see a single compelling argument as to why the stamina system should not be overhauled or at least tweaked.

[quote]Mana is there to limit the number of spells that a mage can cast during combat. Spell cost and mana consuption work very well for most mob battles since those battles are very quick. The problem arise in longer battles against bosses or larger mobs. In those situations, the mana mechanic would gimp mage to the point of being not very enjoyable to play. I mean something like "cast some spell and then take a look". [/quote]

They could have added in so many mana regen mechanics to the game without resorting to mass potions. There could be entire system put in place that could make mana management a fun and skillful affair. That said, I don't think it will be changed until DA2, that's why I proposed to fix the imbalance of stamina rather than the imbalance of mana.

[quote]Warrior and rogues do not suffer the same limitation since thay can allways auto-attack effectively thanks to better gear and so on. That's why there are no stamina potions. So, at the end, there is a balance (even if I think that balance is not a problem in single player game) and it's not broken at all. [/quote]

On the contrary, the current system even if it's balanced (which I disagree, because it obviously is not) is not fun for rogues/warriors because autoattacking in general just isn't fun. As a mage I am always managing my spells, thinking which would be the best for any given situation. With warriors it's.. "I want to use skill X" - Oh NM out of stamina - oh well let's continue autoswinging and hope for crits.

[quote]Lyrium potions are needed only in longer fights since it seems (at least, it seems to me but I could be wrong) that given the current system it's difficult to balance spell cost in both quick and long fights and that lyrium potions were the easier tool to cover the differences between those situations. [/quote]

Why is it difficult to balance? Mages can be given mana regen abilities with conditions attached to them, so you can't spam them for full mana. The decision making process of when to use these abilities would separate good player from the bad.

[quote]The problem is that while I understand that lyrium potions are an easy solution to the problem, having an infinite availability of those potions turn mana management in something trivial. Thanks to infinite lyrium pots, you could avoid mana management at all. Thanks to infinite lyrium pots all the nice spells that were studied to help mana management (not to mention Wynne background talent) became mostly useless. [/quote]

The infinite potions work, but they are what is called a "bandaid fix". Badly implemented to mask the problem.

[quote]If DA:O is a tactical game, the management of resources should be a concern at least for harder difficulties. [/quote]

I agree.

[quote]So, after all I've said what would be the best soution for me? For DA:O I think that the Nightmare Mod have allready find some interesting solution that solve most of the problems. So, for the persons who want a challenge, just download the mod and use it.[/quote]

The NM mod is garbage because the creator has doesn't understand what the game's balance problems are and breaks what isn't broken.

[quote]But for a potential sequel, there are simpler solutions imho. Cut mana and stamina at all. Leave only fatigue. Every action you make add a certain amount of points to fatigue. When you surpass a certain level of fatigue you can allways use your talents but the effectiveness of those talent (and/or the time needed to use those talents) is reduced by a certain amount. The limit of sustainable fatigue is estabilished by willpower (or by willpower for mages and constitution for warriors and rogues).[/quote]

A potentially excellent idea, which will probably not be implemented - at least until DA2.

Just my two cents .

[/quote]

[Fluffykeith]

Would it be particularly controversial if I said that I don't think the stamina system has any particular faults, apart from maybe that stamina regen is a little slow?



I'm playing a melee-focused party with a 2-hander warrior as my hero. I use Wynne as a healer and for crowd control, mostly because I like melee in these games (i find sitting at the back and lobbing fireballs to be boring, and easy, as hell) and I don't want my melee mob getting damaged by my own mage...



But im not having an issue with the stamina thing. I've put a lot of points into Willpower (stamina and mental resistance? yes please...) and at the point I am in the game (just after the Landsmeet), I have plenty of stamina to strategically use abilities. I can't afford to spam them like a monkey, but I have enough that if I dont spam them, and use them where appropriate for the situation, then I have more than enough to do so. And I'm resisting a lot of enemy spells as well.



From all the threads about this Ive read, it seems almost like people play Mages, that are extremely powerful glass cannons and only generally need to focus on a couple of stats, and then try playing warriors and get annoyed because its a totally differant playstyle...its not as easy, but I reckon its more rewarding.

[Elanareon]

People don't understand that this is a party based game. If you have skills to spam, which is really not a way to play a game, you will only concentrate on one person on the party. But i do agree that mage needs reworking. Longer CD's for mana pots and lyrium addiction maybe? But i disagree to skill spamming,you say its more tactical that way, how can it be more tactical if you just use all the skills you have and be done with it?

[deathwing200]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Well, mages were invincible, so I'd count that as more powerful Maybe some of my memories are influenced by the PRC mod though, with wish and whatnot making them able to do whatever they pleased. Regardless that game was incredibly easy as anyone.

Once again not talking about PvP. In PvE warriors were also invincible. They did it differently though. Mages buffed themselves into invincibility, warriors had insane gear that did the same thing. When both classes were unkillable, the only way to gauge their power was to see the damage they could put out. Weaponmasters put out damage that was totally obscene with high chance of instant kill - and it was unlimited. Mage damage was godly at level 10. Good at level 15. Decent at level 20 and horrible at level 25. Facing swarms of 400hp+ enemies with unbeatable saves had you resting pretty much every 5 minutes.