167 réponses à ce sujet

[Mordaedil]

soteria wrote...

Better how? At needing to rest every fight or something? By the time you got done with NWN you could have immunity to pretty much every status ailment + death and mind spells, and wield, what, +8 or +10 weapons or something stupidly obscene like that? Plus the +12 stat bonuses, which help a warrior more than a wizard.

Despite all those nice things, a single Flesh to Stone destroys any one enemy. Of course, for bigger groups you have other choices, but I had more troubles with a warrior than I had with a sorcerer or wizard. Even in the custom modules post the campaigns.

soteria wrote...

Are you and Mordaedil talking about some sort of PvP better-ness outside of the campaigns or something? Cause in HotU, I just can't see wizards or sorcerors being "better." Some fights they could handle better than a fighter, other times the fighter would do better, but the fighter always always had less downtime because he didn't have to rest and spend half a minute buffing every major battle.

There's a relativity that's at play, but PvP is part of gameplay, much like PvE is, and the sad of fact is, mages are always better at it. They have the crowd-control spells, all a warrior really has is click and let the fight carry out itself and hope the RNG is in your favor. Done right, a warrior could do pretty well, but in the end, they fall short of what a mage can do.

Mages are uber to where the fighters are merely "meh".

deathwing200 wrote...

Pretty much. Also love how the
above people are talking about mage PvP superiority ("My mage could
beat warrior in one spell"), which I already agreed with and
acknowledged as true (the game is over when sorcerer casts timestop,
basically). What I was talking about is PvM viability where mages were
pretty much useless because their spells stop scaling as per DnD rules
after level 20 and epic level system is very poorly implemented.

I disagree, but that's because you're not taking multiclassing into the consideration. How does 20/20 sorcerer/wizard fit into your calculations?

deathwing200 wrote...

It's
funny how these guys are so utterly clueless, suggesting that pure
wizard was the best build and how mages were overpowered. I had a good
laugh. Let me guess, you only ever played on RP server and never
actually built characters seriously? (for the record the best mage
build was sorc/pal/monk).

You claim that we're clueless, when all you are doing is inciting a giant ******-fight content. Attack the argument, not the poster.

I can concede that a sorcerer/paladin/monk is extremely strong, but it's basically a creation that aims to avoid damage, not deal it. There are many melee builds designed to destroy it, by catering to it's weaknesses, which are not few.

One of the better builds is the melee mage designed by WebShaman. Maybe you should look it up some time?

Claim cluelessness all you guys want, but fact is that you're really no better being a bunch of carebears that are afraid of a real challenge in the form of a thinking player. The PvE argument is hilarious, really. There was never a challenge for anyone in that in NWN.

[deathwing200]

Mordaedil wrote...

Despite all those nice things, a single Flesh to Stone destroys any one enemy. Of course, for bigger groups you have other choices, but I had more troubles with a warrior than I had with a sorcerer or wizard. Even in the custom modules post the campaigns.

In later levels, saves far outscale your spell DC. There's no way you can Flesh to Stone/Finger of Death/etc consistently. At some point it's simply not worth casting because +saves on everything is so massive.

after level 20 and epic level system is very poorly implemented.
I disagree, but that's because you're not taking multiclassing into the consideration. How does 20/20 sorcerer/wizard fit into your calculations?

20/20 sorcerer/wizard? I hope you're kidding because the combo is awful You need both INT+CHA, meaning your spell DC will be non existent. Did you actually ever build power characters or are you looking up FR characters and claiming they're strong?

I can concede that a sorcerer/paladin/monk is extremely strong, but it's basically a creation that aims to avoid damage, not deal it. There are many melee builds designed to destroy it, by catering to it's weaknesses, which are not few.

Sorc/pal/monk was designed for anti melee. It is unhittable and no melee build in existence can beat it without major nerfs to spells, removal of timestop and massive amount of immunity items. It's also funny how you say "meant to avoid damage, not deal it", because I hope you know what  the difference is between a damage spell cast by level 20 sorcerer and by level 40 sorcerer is? None. Do you know by how much the HP pools scale? By a lot..

One of the better builds is the melee mage designed by WebShaman. Maybe you should look it up some time?

It's a terrible build He gimps his spellcasting to aquire minor melee abilities. His low AB and STR compared to fighter means he won't hit anything. Here is a post from one of the posters in regards to his "build:

"Assuming a fairly balanced module, a Fighter-type should never have a
100% chance to hit a enemy reasonably well-matched to the
Fighter-type's level. A 75-85% chance is far more likely. Every two
levels of Mage-type you acquire puts you 5% below the Fighter-type so
by level 20 the Mage should be a full 50% behind the Fighter-type
putting accuracy in the 25-35% range. Assuming an empowered Bull's
Strength/Cat's Grace will give +7, that's an additional 15% in the
Mage-type's favor however even so that's still only 40-50% chance of
hitting."

The poster also didn't take into account fighter's access to weapon focus/EWF and weaponmaster.

Webshaman replies:

As I have pointed out, the Attack bonus is not miniscule. Also, I would
hate to see a Mod or PW where normal m0bs have ACs set at 75% Fighter
AB!!

So he built a "flavor RP" character for joke PWs or easy campaigns and is shocked that in balanced game his character is essentially a joke.

Claim cluelessness all you guys want, but fact is that you're really no better being a bunch of carebears that are afraid of a real challenge in the form of a thinking player. The PvE argument is hilarious, really. There was never a challenge for anyone in that in NWN.

You're retarded if you think NWN was designed for PvP. Timestop, 3 minute bigbies, IGMS and immunity items. It's a DnD based game and thus PvE only. Stop being stupid.

Modifié par deathwing200, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:34 .

[kingthrall]

there shoudnt be stamina potions, what there should be is a considerable boost in your stamina for every enemy you kill. I know there is an ability that does this but it should already be passive. Almost like as if your character has gotten a morale boost for killing the opponent.

[deathwing200]

kingthrall wrote...

there shoudnt be stamina potions, what there should be is a considerable boost in your stamina for every enemy you kill. I know there is an ability that does this but it should already be passive. Almost like as if your character has gotten a morale boost for killing the opponent.

An excellent idea, although fighting bosses (who summon no minions) would still be a concern.

[Matthew Young CT]

no you should just learn to manage your talents and use +regen. the only way one can consider stamina lacking is if you expect to do nothing but use abilities. which simply isnt how the game was designed. maybe you think it should have been, but doing that would require rebalancing all the abilities too.

and both rogues and warriors do get stamina-on-kill abilities.....i dont think 50+ stamina per kill should be passive. thats silly.

Modifié par Matthew Young CT, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:49 .

[kingthrall]

ive beaten the game twice now, going on for a third time, i think i know how to manage my talents. it was merely a suggestion

[Matthew Young CT]

its not needed though. you have like 150-250 stamina + rejuv + mass rejuv + regen items + feast of the fallen/death blow. just how much stamina do you think you need per fight?

[Mordaedil]

deathwing200 wrote...

In later levels, saves far outscale your spell DC. There's no way you can Flesh to Stone/Finger of Death/etc consistently. At some point it's simply not worth casting because +saves on everything is so massive.

This is not consistant. Spell DC's actually outrank most character's saves unless they're purposefully basing themselves on preventing those saves. Numerically, the saving throws would win out on Spell DC, it was not capped to level 40. As it is, certain classes can indeed outdo Spell DC, but others can't.

Unless your example of a melee character was a paladin or a dwarf barbarian, I dunno.

20/20 sorcerer/wizard? I hope you're kidding because the combo is awful You need both INT+CHA, meaning your spell DC will be non existent. Did you actually ever build power characters or are you looking up FR characters and claiming they're strong?

There are plenty of spells that do not rely on Spell DC's and that's where the build excels. With plenty of spells to throw out, it's pretty hard to beat.

Sorc/pal/monk was designed for anti melee. It is unhittable and no melee build in existence can beat it without major nerfs to spells, removal of timestop and massive amount of immunity items. It's also funny how you say "meant to avoid damage, not deal it", because I hope you know what  the difference is between a damage spell cast by level 20 sorcerer and by level 40 sorcerer is? None. Do you know by how much the HP pools scale? By a lot..

Unhittable it is not. It has by far abyssmal AC and requires more gear to stay alive, but alright. Also, it's untrue that spells do not continue increasing after level 20. Take a second look at Flame Arrow, Evard's Black Tentacles and Horrid Wilthing for examples. They can destroy any monster without evasion.

It's a terrible build He gimps his spellcasting to aquire minor melee abilities. His low AB and STR compared to fighter means he won't hit anything. Here is a post from one of the posters in regards to his "build:

"Assuming a fairly balanced module, a Fighter-type should never have a
100% chance to hit a enemy reasonably well-matched to the
Fighter-type's level. A 75-85% chance is far more likely. Every two
levels of Mage-type you acquire puts you 5% below the Fighter-type so
by level 20 the Mage should be a full 50% behind the Fighter-type
putting accuracy in the 25-35% range. Assuming an empowered Bull's
Strength/Cat's Grace will give +7, that's an additional 15% in the
Mage-type's favor however even so that's still only 40-50% chance of
hitting."

The poster also didn't take into account fighter's access to weapon focus/EWF and weaponmaster.

Webshaman replies:

As I have pointed out, the Attack bonus is not miniscule. Also, I would
hate to see a Mod or PW where normal m0bs have ACs set at 75% Fighter
AB!!

So he built a "flavor RP" character for joke PWs or easy campaigns and is shocked that in balanced game his character is essentially a joke.

Why don't you go and discuss that with him then?

You're retarded if you think NWN was designed for PvP.

Yes. That is EXACTLY my point. Mages > Clerics > everything else. This is a fact of life.

Timestop, 3 minute bigbies, IGMS and immunity items. It's a DnD based game and thus PvE only. Stop being stupid.

Who exactly is the one being stupid here?

Modifié par Mordaedil, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:14 .

[kingthrall]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

its not needed though. you have like 150-250 stamina + rejuv + mass rejuv + regen items + feast of the fallen/death blow. just how much stamina do you think you need per fight?

enough to banter my way out of your arguments, which is probally 500 stamina

Modifié par kingthrall, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:13 .

[Mordaedil]

kingthrall wrote...

there shoudnt be stamina potions, what there should be is a considerable boost in your stamina for every enemy you kill. I know there is an ability that does this but it should already be passive. Almost like as if your character has gotten a morale boost for killing the opponent.

I do like this suggestion. Though should it be a talent or an inherent boost?

[stragonar]

It seems to me that stamina and mana regeneration on a whole are somewhat stagnant across the board. In addition to this replenishing slowly, abilities that aid with it also seem too weak, rejuvination and bard song stam regeneration arent quite beneficial enough. I would imagine all

these should have about a 150-200% increase, and then make pots/poultices have a significantly longer cooldown and no more of this lesser/reg/greater pot juggling act crap. Bearing this in mind it should still be possible to play without a designated healer so potions will need a bit of a boost to how much they heal, however, using constitution modifier for health pots as a bonus to regained health (as it rightly should be to postively reflect the larger health pool) should also come into effect.

[Matthew Young CT]

people who think regen isnt strong enough have never actually tried to make use of it. mage can easily get ~+6 natural + spellbloom + rejuv + mass rejuv, warriors get natural + rejuvs + talents that give like 50 stamina per kill.



regen is finefinefinefine

[kingthrall]

stragonar wrote...

It seems to me that stamina and mana regeneration on a whole are somewhat stagnant across the board. In addition to this replenishing slowly, abilities that aid with it also seem too weak, rejuvination and bard song stam regeneration arent quite beneficial enough. I would imagine all
these should have about a 150-200% increase, and then make pots/poultices have a significantly longer cooldown and no more of this lesser/reg/greater pot juggling act crap. Bearing this in mind it should still be possible to play without a designated healer so potions will need a bit of a boost to how much they heal, however, using constitution modifier for health pots as a bonus to regained health (as it rightly should be to postively reflect the larger health pool) should also come into effect.

i totally disagree with altering the poultices, they are perfect as is. You are not in a Tavern skulling as many potions every second. The thing with potions is that you can make these whilst in combat! so you can pretty much never die 

The passive ability i mentioned it should be just a tiny bit, like enough for any stamina using class to use their first skills. The skill should be twice as strong to give that 4th tier skill a real feel in gameplay for being useful.

[soteria]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

people who think regen isnt strong enough have never actually tried to make use of it. mage can easily get ~+6 natural + spellbloom + rejuv + mass rejuv, warriors get natural + rejuvs + talents that give like 50 stamina per kill.

regen is finefinefinefine

Not sure which game you're playing, but I've never seen deathblow increase my stamina at all.  Not sure it even works, even though I see a visual effect with the talent.

[SSH83]

>.> Playing a no-mage party. Doing fine here on nightmare. Still end up finding more pots than I need, never crafted a single healing potion yet.

Maybe you just need to L2P?

There are so many great tools in the warrior/rogue arsenal that if you time them right, and use them all with good timing and planning, you will not have to worry about stamina.

For example, should a dagger rogue put points into archery tree? Why, YES! Pinning Shot is low-cost and more powerful than whirlwind strike in 90% of the fights. It's a ranged stun with low stamina cost available to you at level 1.  Use hot key to switch to bow, shoot, and switch back.  Easy!  No-brainer, right?  Yet, do most people take the talent? Did you?

Still think there's something wrong with the game and not with the players?

Modifié par SSH83, 09 décembre 2009 - 09:21 .

[yfa96lakdd]

friends, I've just started the game but did not find the elixir of strength will help me if I would be glad

[yfa96lakdd]

Do not find a potion to help stamina

[ncknck]

For example, should a dagger rogue put points into archery tree? Why, YES! Pinning Shot is low-cost and more powerful than whirlwind strike in 90% of the fights. It's a ranged stun with low stamina cost available to you at level 1. Use hot key to switch to bow, shoot, and switch back. Easy! No-brainer, right? Yet, do most people take the talent? Did you?

Still think there's something wrong with the game and not with the players?

What? Pinning shot is single target stun, whirlwind is AOE damage, how can you compare them it doesnt make sense. And switching to bow deactivates melee sustainables like momentum and puts them all on cooldown. Not a very good trade, considering a rogue has melee stuns anyway. Stop with the funny and leave archer tasks to archers, they can do it better.

Modifié par ncknck, 16 juillet 2010 - 10:52 .