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[Drake-Shepard]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

All dream sequences are prolonged slow motion. Post harbinger blast is only other part of the game which is slowmotion for more then 1 second.

Except for EVA on Mars and the Reaper on Rannoch...

thats why i said prolonged and no-more then a second. sorry i should of said 1-2.5 seconds

[RABicle]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Or, you know, the boy was real until he died.

Guh.

Yeah the boy was real until he died. You might notice that he died when a REAPER BLEW UP THE ROOM HE WAS HIDING IN!

Modifié par RABicle, 11 avril 2012 - 03:04 .

[Candidate 88766]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

All dream sequences are prolonged slow motion. Post harbinger blast is only other part of the game which is slowmotion for more then 1 second.

Except for EVA on Mars and the Reaper on Rannoch...

thats why i said prolonged and no-more then a second. sorry i should of said 1-2.5 seconds

So Shepard moving slowly during dreams and Shepard moving slowly because he was just shot by a giant laser somehow add up to Shepard being indoctrinated?

Can you not see the colossal leap in logic you have to make before you can view this as 'proof'?

[GnusmasTHX]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

All dream sequences are prolonged slow motion. Post harbinger blast is only other part of the game which is slowmotion for more then 1 second.

Except for EVA on Mars and the Reaper on Rannoch...

thats why i said prolonged and no-more then a second. sorry i should of said 1-2.5 seconds

... The beam hit was no longer than that.

In fact the Eva thing was much longer.

Oh wait, you said POST Harbinger blast. Post Harbinger blast isn't in slow-motion, he's just slow when he ADS.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 11 avril 2012 - 03:06 .

[balance5050]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

EC pretty much rules out IT. If you don't believe so that's as much denial as IT itself is.

Not really, it differs from personto person and the means for indoctrination, the scientist on the Derelict ship were complaining of nightmares, and Rana Thanoptis had the Indoctrination lie dormant until the reapers arrived.

[BobbyDylan]

rachellouise wrote...

variobunz wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

If you ignore large chunks of the lore about indoctrination and instead assume that, instead of just being subliminal signals, indoctrination is some kind of Inception-style battle of wills between the victim and the Reapers then sure.

If you have a flick through the codex, you'll see that Shepard never really exhibits any of the hallmarks of indoctrination (feelings of being watched, hallucinations - which by their very nature take place during your waking hours, not during dreams, so the dream sequences aren't proof of indoctrination to any extent). Plus, there has never been any indication that indoctrination leads to the victim imagining some kind of dream world in which the Reapers try to trick you into becoming indoctrinated. It doesn't fit with the lore.

And the current ending does fit with the lore? 

catalyst = being of light, destroying organics

FTFY

[balance5050]

RABicle wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Or, you know, the boy was real until he died.

Guh.

Yeah the boy was real until he died. You might notice that he died when a REAPER BLEW UP THE ROOM HE WAS HIDING IN!

[Galifreya]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

If you ignore large chunks of the lore about indoctrination and instead assume that, instead of just being subliminal signals, indoctrination is some kind of Inception-style battle of wills between the victim and the Reapers then sure.

If you have a flick through the codex, you'll see that Shepard never really exhibits any of the hallmarks of indoctrination (feelings of being watched, hallucinations - which by their very nature take place during your waking hours, not during dreams, so the dream sequences aren't proof of indoctrination to any extent). Plus, there has never been any indication that indoctrination leads to the victim imagining some kind of dream world in which the Reapers try to trick you into becoming indoctrinated. It doesn't fit with the lore.

Because indoctrinating the "incredibly strong willed" takes time, and a whole lot of patience. You can't just indoctrinate and be done with it. The Illusive Man was indoctrinated. Did he present any of these signs? Not as far as I know.

[GnusmasTHX]

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

EC pretty much rules out IT. If you don't believe so that's as much denial as IT itself is.

Not really, it differs from personto person and the means for indoctrination, the scientist on the Derelict ship were complaining of nightmares, and Rana Thanoptis had the Indoctrination lie dormant until the reapers arrived.

What.

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

EC pretty much rules out IT. If you don't believe so that's as much denial as IT itself is.

Not really, it differs from personto person and the means for indoctrination, the scientist on the Derelict ship were complaining of nightmares, and Rana Thanoptis had the Indoctrination lie dormant until the reapers arrived.

They complained of seeing hallucinations during their waking hours (such as feelings of being watched and seeing shapes moving out of the croner of their eyes), and having shared memories. 

Shepard never experiences these.

Ever.

[Colder-Than-Ice]

My point is quite simple: The game has several odd solutions and details added to it. You can explain them from the blunt perspective of "It's a scanner, we need to have it for loading screen substitution", or "It's a scanner, we don't want recording devices into the war room". However, the game itself doesn't provide an explanation that matches such ideas. Instead, the game specifically tries to prove the scanner's there to prevent threats from outside the ship to reach important areas of the ship. This strikes out more because usually the game has provided an accurate and logical explanation for game mechanical things. In other words: The scanner might be there because we need a loading screen equivalent and BW didn't bother to write it in properly. Or it can be there because it has a logical purpose in the game world but the story goes out of its way to make you accept an illogical explanation - just like with the ending. You following?

All I'm saying is, the game can be very poorly written and can't even explain why its loading screen substitute is positioned where it is (except for loading area reasons). Or, you can go for the conspiracy theory and suspect Bioware has purposefully made the scanner's existence illogical - which is also possible, because the said scanner is just one example of countless things in the story and lore of ME3 that don't make sense in the light of the previous two games. And since the indoctrination theory is all about making the players feel paranoid and watched, not Shepard per se, it's all possible according to the theory too.

In short, as someone said previously, indoctrination theory is also about explaining the things during the whole storyline that make zero sense, instead of just ignoring them. And returning to my point: I don't even care to know whether indoctrination theory is true or not, whether Bioware thought of many things or not. I'm just saying the whole story was illogical from the beginning and the original ending wasn't there to make it any better. Personally I just don't Bioware to iron it out for people so they have only one way of interpreting Bioware's intentions.

[someone else]

there's an alternative (not mine entirely, though I kinda packaged it) that accomplishes the same, with a lot less reimagining of the current ending...see link below.

[Drake-Shepard]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

All dream sequences are prolonged slow motion. Post harbinger blast is only other part of the game which is slowmotion for more then 1 second.

Except for EVA on Mars and the Reaper on Rannoch...

thats why i said prolonged and no-more then a second. sorry i should of said 1-2.5 seconds

... The beam hit was no longer than that.

In fact the Eva thing was much longer.

What? you must be a bad shot.

anyway. the child. Watch from 2min 15 seconds. for a minute. Explain to me that the child is alive. If you do, i will drop IT completely and praise you 

[Spectre-61]

http://social.biowar.../index/10980774

Please read the entire first post. It's a nice summary about the Indoctrination Theory.

[GnusmasTHX]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

All dream sequences are prolonged slow motion. Post harbinger blast is only other part of the game which is slowmotion for more then 1 second.

Except for EVA on Mars and the Reaper on Rannoch...

thats why i said prolonged and no-more then a second. sorry i should of said 1-2.5 seconds

... The beam hit was no longer than that.

In fact the Eva thing was much longer.

What? you must be a bad shot.

anyway. the child. Watch from 2min 15 seconds. for a minute. Explain to me that the child is alive. If you do, i will drop IT completely and praise you 

Not really. The EVA sequence has a mandatory time despite your damage it takes and it's comparitively long.

Also, that link you posted. Answer this: Why do they wait for the kid to get on board and leave immediately after?

The scene is just bad, period. But he's not some ghost in it.

[Candidate 88766]

Gallifreya wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

If you ignore large chunks of the lore about indoctrination and instead assume that, instead of just being subliminal signals, indoctrination is some kind of Inception-style battle of wills between the victim and the Reapers then sure.

If you have a flick through the codex, you'll see that Shepard never really exhibits any of the hallmarks of indoctrination (feelings of being watched, hallucinations - which by their very nature take place during your waking hours, not during dreams, so the dream sequences aren't proof of indoctrination to any extent). Plus, there has never been any indication that indoctrination leads to the victim imagining some kind of dream world in which the Reapers try to trick you into becoming indoctrinated. It doesn't fit with the lore.

Because indoctrinating the "incredibly strong willed" takes time, and a whole lot of patience. You can't just indoctrinate and be done with it. The Illusive Man was indoctrinated. Did he present any of these signs? Not as far as I know.

We don't follow TIM around for the entire game. We have three conversations with him before the end, and we never see him outside of those conversations.

During the entirety of ME3, Shepard exhibits none of the symptoms of indoctrination. So its safe to assume that either he isn't indoctrinated at all, or not to any meaningful level.

However, he can suddenly become fully indoctrinated at the end despite, as you say, it taking a long time to indoctrinate strong-willed individuals. This is where the theory falls apart: there's no evidence of indoctrination prior to the end sequence, and yet the theory requires Shepard to be very highly indoctrinated by this point.

The theory only works if you don't think about it too much. Which doesn't make it any better than the real endings.

[Lyrebon]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Indoc theory is based completely on the rushed, sloppy part of the ending.

Pointing out rushed and sloppy work as proof forgets that rushed and sloppy work lacks intent to create the situation.

There's plenty of other instances throughout all three games suggestive of the theory. It's not just a reaction to the end. I even questioned Shepard's sanity through the second game and thought to myself her mind had to have been affected to some degree by the Reapers.

There are missions and scenes where she hears voices and she's been inside a derelict Reaper, handled Reaper technology (remember it was said that even the smallest Reaper tech could invade your mind) and been exposed to Prothean beacons that, for all we know, could make her more susceptible to Reaper indoctrination.

Stress expends a heavy tax on the mind, how hard would it be for the Reapers to slip in a subtle indoctrination? Also recall Saren's expletive: "my mind is my own, for now." Refer to this: http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination

Read that and carefully dissect the implications therein. Cybernetic implants make it easier for the Reapers to control organics. The synthesis ended has all organics synthesised in a way and the Reapers still live. Wouldn't it then just be easier for the Reapers to assume direct control of every synthesised being? Thereby enslaving the entire galaxy. They could just take what they need from each race, destroy the rest and wait another 50,000 cycles for it to begin all over again. Even if they become part-organic themselves how does that change their mind-set? Each Reaper is an independent AI and Harbinger and Sovereign particularly exhibited signs of sadism and a superiority complex.

By "destroying" the Reapers Shepard is being counter-intuitive to the Starchild's rationalising and in this sense is logical to weakening indoctrination. By opposing the suggestion that the Reapers not be destroyed through synthesis (the supreme solution) or control (which an indoctrinated Illusive Man wanted), Shepard is countering what the Reapers actually want.

They were so close to the Crucible when Harbinger swooped in and blasted everyone in London; they - the Reapers - could have feared Shepard might actually accomplish her goals and had to intervene, knocking her unconscious with a near-miss and attacking her mind at its weakest.

I could go on why I advocate IT but that might bore you  I just think there's strong grounds established by previous games to support the theory.

[Drake-Shepard]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

EC pretty much rules out IT. If you don't believe so that's as much denial as IT itself is.

Not really, it differs from personto person and the means for indoctrination, the scientist on the Derelict ship were complaining of nightmares, and Rana Thanoptis had the Indoctrination lie dormant until the reapers arrived.

They complained of seeing hallucinations during their waking hours (such as feelings of being watched and seeing shapes moving out of the croner of their eyes), and having shared memories. 

Shepard never experiences these.

Ever.

My post with the link
 
explain to me the boy is real. watch from 2 min 15 for a minute.

And those people on the ship were living and sleeping on the ship for days.They were within the reaper presence indefinately whilst having the 'seeing things' moments.  shepard had 2 days on arrival and then was off the asteroid.
He saw the boy, after the boy died...while awake, WHILE the reapers were on earth. The next time he had a full blown hallucination was after the harbinger blast. Reapers everywhere again.

[Lyrandori]

It's up to interpretation as long as BioWare doesn't make *something* canon. For the moment, we're not sure (yeah yeah, Prothean VI on Thessia says it doesn't detect indoctrination, blah blah, I know). Until then if you want to believe Shepard is being indoctrinated and everything that happens after he wakes up (after being hit by Harbinger's beam) happens in his mind (a fight in his mind to regain "control" of his body back in London, presumably) then so be it, that's your canon. If you believe that Shepard isn't indoctrinated due to "lack of proof" (I.E. BioWare's absolutely confirmation or denial) and eventually "let it go" for what the ending is at face value and consider that "really happening", then so be it, that's your canon.

Speculation and Conjecture for everyone.

Modifié par Lyrandori, 11 avril 2012 - 03:13 .

[Candidate 88766]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

anyway. the child. Watch from 2min 15 seconds. for a minute. Explain to me that the child is alive. If you do, i will drop IT completely and praise you 

They are in a rush to leave, and yet wait for the child to board before closing the doors and flying off. They leave the instant he is on board, so if he wasn't present they would have left the instant everyone else was on board.

Yes, Bioware should have shown one of the soldiers helping the child on board. But its a massive leap to go from 'soldier not helping child' to 'child is a hallucination'.

[Candidate 88766]

Drake-Shepard wrote...
He saw the boy, after the boy died...while awake, WHILE the reapers were on earth. The next time he had a full blown hallucination was after the harbinger blast. Reapers everywhere again.

He saw the boy before the Reapers arrived, and months after Arrival happened.

Plus, he never experiences any hallucinations while on Palaven's moon, Thessia, Tuchunka or Rannoch, and on each of these missions there were either lots of Reapers, or a small Reaper that got incredibly close to Shepard.

You can't just pick and choose examples and ignore other occurances of it.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

EC pretty much rules out IT. If you don't believe so that's as much denial as IT itself is.

Not really, it differs from personto person and the means for indoctrination, the scientist on the Derelict ship were complaining of nightmares, and Rana Thanoptis had the Indoctrination lie dormant until the reapers arrived.

They complained of seeing hallucinations during their waking hours (such as feelings of being watched and seeing shapes moving out of the croner of their eyes), and having shared memories. 

Shepard never experiences these.

Ever.

After his second dream, he wakes up in a chair with a data pad in his hand, waking dream? vision?

http://www.youtube.c...f4qlJrprs#t=85s

Modifié par balance5050, 11 avril 2012 - 03:16 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

anyway. the child. Watch from 2min 15 seconds. for a minute. Explain to me that the child is alive. If you do, i will drop IT completely and praise you 

They are in a rush to leave, and yet wait for the child to board before closing the doors and flying off. They leave the instant he is on board, so if he wasn't present they would have left the instant everyone else was on board.

Yes, Bioware should have shown one of the soldiers helping the child on board. But its a massive leap to go from 'soldier not helping child' to 'child is a hallucination'.

This, and the entire scene doesn't make sense. Shepard shouldn't and couldn't have stayed to watch anyway.

Those shuttles would've never landed there.

[Spectre-61]

The following is from another user in another thread (not far far away):

"You see a boy playing with the model of the Normandy. Everything is ok, but after the attack, you see this boy run into a locked room -- this is also ok, but what happens next is not. A reaper laser hits that building causing an explosion of such magnitude that the ALLOY SECURITY DOORS are blown slam out. This would create a pneumatic pressure change that would have been so great inside that building that your blood would have boiled from the sheer recoil of the air-pressure resettling causing in your own body exploding. Even if you were hiding in an air shaft directly connected to the room. The authors aren't retards, so there is no reason why anyone should try and refute "decompression syndrome" as being something the writers didn't know about. Then this boy makes another appearance, disconnected with any other humans around him - in fact the only 2 "things" the boy looks at, is Shep and the Reaper. Folks, I've seen war, I'm an OEF veteran, I'm sure these Canadian developers have seen it too because I've been there and seen their flag on their uniforms via some of my tours -- they know the INSTANT reaction a soldier has to seeing a child wandering a battle field -- it is immediate compassion charged defensive response. This was devoided in the scene very much so on purpose. But it is not even that, Anderson whom stands right behind you in this little room did not hear the boy nor did he see him, and the boy vanishes with only a "growl" as a audible signature."

[GnusmasTHX]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

EC pretty much rules out IT. If you don't believe so that's as much denial as IT itself is.

Not really, it differs from personto person and the means for indoctrination, the scientist on the Derelict ship were complaining of nightmares, and Rana Thanoptis had the Indoctrination lie dormant until the reapers arrived.

They complained of seeing hallucinations during their waking hours (such as feelings of being watched and seeing shapes moving out of the croner of their eyes), and having shared memories. 

Shepard never experiences these.

Ever.

After his second dream, he wakes up in a chair with a data pad in his hand, waking dream? vision?

http://www.youtube.c...f4qlJrprs#t=85s

Or he fell asleep while he was using it. That's never happend to anybody before.